My original name was broken heart and arm. I first registered on MB in April, 2002 after my husband suggested he move out so that I don't have to worry about what he's doing during the day. My very naive response was: "I'm not worried about about what you're doing during the day." His comment worried me, I ended up calling Harley's radio show the next week, he told me to call this woman's husband, the woman's husband learned that among other things my husband had broken my arm four months before when we were arguing about how his wife was calling my husband and my husband thought it was rude of me to hang up, and the husband suspected an affair -- which I said no way because my husband is so religious -- and, well, Sophia finally cracked and confessed to her husband who then told me.

Lots of angst since then. We went through two marriage counselors, the second of whom said "The concept of care doesn't make sense to him" and suggested a long-term separation so Tom could learn about care through individual counseling. I finally said we go through the MarriageBuilders program or we divorce. He agreed to go through the program but not attend the weekend. That was 2004. He made our time together miserable, doing things like bringing up Sophia and how she aroused him when we were trying to practice affection. He then decided to go through individual counseling and started going to a therapist who has a stellar reputation in the Twin Cities, definitely the leading Catholic therapist who has taught premarital classes, has written books on marriage, and now teaches at the seminary. I went into counseling expecting this guy to be just terrific, my only concern being that he was a male and I would have concern about discussing sexual issues with a male.

Our sessions quickly became arguments between me and him about the POJA. He was dead set against it, called it "la la land." His view is that you need to respect individual differences and you can do that best by allowing unilateral decisions within pre-defined "baliwicks." I did my best to show how this theory isn't to Tom's advantage. For example, as a stay at home mother, does this mean that I have unilateral decision making concerning choice of our children's schools? I showed a willingness to not do what Tom didn't like, and so I gave up MarriageBuilders. The therapist thought we were making progress but he thought I was "controlling" to expect Tom to give up what I find negative for me -- starting with Tom wanting to run four nights a week after work (he messed up his knee and had to go to a chiropractor because of running a marathon in 2001).

The therapist concluded I was "locked into" the POJA and suggested separation and planning for divorce. I ended up saying I didn't want to return to marriage counseling with this person. We were in limbo, but there was a distraction -- Tom lost his job. In June, he got a job with a consulting firm, and the job requires extensive traveling. Tom decided to return to the "POJA is la la land" therapist for individual counseling, he didn't ask my opinion, I finally said I felt "uncomfortable" with his returning to this guy, he got upset and said my opinion was "irrelevant", I then said, "I cannot control you. I cannot coerce you. I cannot convince you. Move out."

That was in July. Since then, he's had a host of reasons why the POJA is "unrealistic." I have tried my best to talk trhough how I am in fact flexible on how we make decisions -- yes, we can hire a landscaper to rebuild a wall; yes, there are ways you can watch football on Sunday that I can be enthusiastic about...

He's now traveling Monday through Friday to San Francisco. He comes home and gets upset with the kids. Just this past weekend, he grabbed our nine year old son around the waist and pulled him out of the car because our son had done something to his six year old sister. We also went out and he said he had been looking forward to it all week.

We discussed going through the Love Busters course which focuses on eliminating negative behavior and gets to the practical approach to problem solving using the POJA. We spent 2 weeks on lesson 1, and just listened to the audio for lesson 2 on Saturday. If we take two or three weeks per lesson, it will be a long time before we complete all 12 lessons. In the meantime, my ENs aren't being met, and neither are his.

Tom did say I could return to MB, but I'm not sure if he said it as a way to negotiate so I would be willing to let him do what is negative for me or because he thinks maybe there is something to Harley's program. I feel so bad about my life sometimes and wonder what lessons we are teaching our children. Right now, my four year old wants to play a game of Concentration, so I need to go, but I would really appreciate any comments, suggestions, or perspectives from people.

I think we have a plan -- he's gone Monday through Friday, we are going through the Love Busters course slowly, we are spending some time together on the weekend -- I am looking for what else it might be appropriate for me to add.
Any suggestions or comments? Thanks.

Cherished

Honestly, after reading your whole story a few times here....I think you need to stop asking a podiatrist to do the job of a heart surgeon...just my .02 though.

You sadly may need to read the "byline" a few times over.

Sorry that I could not be more helpful to you.

Lem <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I'm not sure what you mean by not read the "byline". Hit me with a 2 X 4, please, so I understand.

Cherished

OK here goes -----> you need to read this and really think about these words..... Some people just don't get it, they don't get it that they don't get it.

Lem <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

And what is it that they don't get?

Cherished

Cher,

""respect individual differences and you can do that best by allowing unilateral decisions within pre-defined "baliwicks.""

UMmmmm...WHAT!?!?

After hearing this I would of run screaming out of his office. I wonder who is buying all of his books.

k

Krusht,
He was a lot more subtle in the wording of his philosophy -- "Love while disagreeing." I could stand it for 10 sessions, but I started to feel like I was facing raw evil. What he was really doing was justifying Tom's disregard for my feelings and calling it respect. We went through example after example, and he thought Tom could do what he thought best but we were on the right track when I considered Tom's feelings. I thought that the "POJA is la la land" comment qualified as a disrespectful judgment.

I think his book may be out of print, but he is universally respected in the Twin Cities. It was a very great disappointment to actually dig down and find that his recommendation for decision making is tolerance and detachment but he just calls it acceptance of differences and respect.

Lem -- Note the paucity of replies to this thread. I would appreciate knowing what you think by I don't get it. I appreciate what you've already said.

Cherished

Cherished, I think this is what Lemonman means:

You don't get -- or don't want to get -- that you are married to an abusive man who is not married to you.

YOU are married.

HE is a single guy who thinks he is entitled to a wife.

HE is not married.

Hear me?

I should know one when I see one. I'm in the same situation, minus the physical abuse. My WH is not married, either. He's a single guy who honestly thinks he's still entitled to have a wife.

That's why nothing ever gets any better for you or for me. We are trying to be married to men who are single.

Girl, any man who refuses to POJA with you is NOT married to you. POJA is for couples. That's why single men resist it mightily, just like your WH and mine.

You cannot be married by yourself, but that's what you're trying to do.

That's why it's never going to work. I figured that out in my case a long time ago. I still loiter at MB because I can always serve as a horrible example for someone else <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />.

You are married. He simply is not, and he was willing to break your arm to prove it to you. You cannot be married by yourself. Please think about this.
Mulan

P.S.:

""respect individual differences and you can do that best by allowing unilateral decisions within pre-defined "baliwicks.""

That means, "Cherished, you'd better let him to whatever the h*ll he wants because he's a single guy and if you expect him to be married he'll just leave you permanently."

Just the sort of marriage that every little girl dreams of.
Mulan

Mulan,
I once told him, "You're a bachelor with a wife and four children."

I did in fact respect individual differences for 3 1/2 very lonely years -- from the day he cracked my skull (or at least that's what I think happened, since I have lumps in my forehead that seem to have gotten less prominent over time but are still very evident) until he showed me an email exchange between himself and this woman who had propositioned him and was telling him at lunch she felt passion for him. During those 3 1/2 years, I thought 2 more kids might bring up more together.

Cherished

Please see Mulan's post with the explanation....she quite clearly "gets it".

I think the reason that you are not seeing many responses to your post is telling. It is NOT becasue people don't care about you...it is for probably the same exact reason why people here always advise BS to NOT "reason" with a WS, who is "fogged" or in "alien mode"...or is "cracked out".......WHY BOTHER?????

Cherished, I am gonna say this in the most "soothing" of tones....you need some serious serious help!!!

You are in "way over your head" with your marriage and MUCH MORE importantly, with the essential single parenting your young children have. The responsibilities that you have now as your children's mother are extremely enormous, considering the situation they are being "raised in".....You are providing a blue print for how your daughters should act and behave when they marry someday and the type of men they should "seek out"...You also are helping your sonslearn how they should "head" their household.......I honestly have extreme fear for your children's future.

This is not a comment about the love for your children, or your ability to mother them....but about your abusive (active or not...just a matter of time) situation, and MOST IMPORTANTLY...from YOUR POINT OF VIEW.....I actually shutter reading your posts.

I am not saying any of this lightly to you....you are just as "fogged out" as any WS here....maybe even worse. All of this "POJA" BS you talk about with your husband, is just that.....pure unadulterated BullSHYYYT. Your MC/IC is another quack, who should be investigated by the state licensing agency....

You somehow have gotten to a place in your life that is so far removed from a healthy reality that you don't even realize it.....your issues extend far beyond what the creator of this site intended......(at least I hope so)

I can't really say it any nicer than this. You are asking for help and/or solutions for problems that are far beyond the scope of what we can offer you and more importantly your children....hence the paucity of responses.

Please revisit the podiatrist for heart surgeon analogy I made, it is very telling for your situation.

I'm a pretty simple guy, of average intelligence, and I readily admnit that I didn't follow the Harley method for marriage or recovery, and I readily admit that I don't agree with or "buy" everything that the site states (and yes, in many people's eyes this is a strike against my "credibility"......) but even a "simpleton" like me can see the issues here.

I am often labeled "insensitive" or "against marriage building" (all potentially true from any one person's POV), but in your case I don't have much more to say to you here....I am honestly afraid for you...and MORE IMPORTANTLY.....your children. You have a choice to do what you do....THEY DON'T.

Lem <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

You know Mulan.....I think this is actually a very sad statement.......that is not a "good enough" excuse for me, so it should not be anywhere near a "good enough" excuse for you.

That is a very sorry testament to your self esteem that you would allow yourself to be an example of "what not to do"....You know why....? Becasue YOU ARE STILL DOING IT !!!!!What do you get out of it in the end??? Come on girl....rexamine your motives.....look at it again......Is this what you want to be in your life........?

I once failed a science test in 7th grade (stayed up too late watching the Monday Night football game)...and my Mom blasted me the day the test came back to be signed (scored a 46 on it <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />)....and said "is this what you want to be in your life"?.....You know what....I NEVER scored less than an A on a Science test again in my life (honestly here).....Why the he** do I want to be an example of what NOT to do......you should't either....I know you know this stuff already, but maybe a kernel will sink in tonight...LOL.

Lem <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Lem,

I once talked to a priest about this mess and he said he admired my commitment to marriage but I needed to face that I'm not married. Harley's wife on the radio show was even more blunt: "She's (referring to me) got a husband that doesn't care."

By the way, Harley gave up on him, too. He said that, if Tom really cared and was repentent, he would have made changes long ago.

Tom's gone Monday through Friday. Last weekend, he asked our son: "Did you miss your Dad?" He said, "No."
Cherished

AND.......................????? What are you going to do about it????? Stay married "for the kids".......? you should reexamine how that is working for you and MORE IMPORTANTLY "them"....You are asking for advice/opinions/answers to questions that you deep deep down in your "heart of hearts" know the answer to already.

Lem <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Lem,
I would never stay married for the kids. I have stayed married in the hope that my husband would wake up and see that it is to his best interest to become a husband and father.

In my mind, all along, there has been a deadline -- the oldest child becoming a teenager. Tom got rewarded for angry outbursts with me. I fear he would try it with a teenager who develops a mind of her own.

And that is now happening. On Sunday, in the car, in front of her siblings, he berated her and humiliated her.

It really isn't that clear what to do. We're now going through Love Busters at a snail's pace and following the POJA at least at what we do in the open. Is that enough? This priest also said to me, something that I later found out was a saying from the Bible: "Leopards don't change their spots." Maybe they don't. I have never even considered the possibility that this wouldn't work out. The broken arm was a nonevent for me emotionally. The affair shook me up terribly but not becuase I questioned staying married -- what I feared was that Sophia would be the love of his life, not me. The days of dwelling on Sophia are over, at least. Our marriage wouldn't end becuase of a past affair but because of ongoing disregard.

Maybe the start is to consider the possiblity that this won't work out.

Cherished

Yeah...and you should go back and reexamine how that "plan" has been working for you....Has your husband woken up yet? You probably should check the batteries on the "alarm" clock.

You know what they say about the defintion of insanity right? Well, I know you do....becasue you live it every day you stay in your current situation.

Like I said previously....not much else to say.


Lem <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I've had a lot to consider and have been considering it for a long, long time. So much therapy it was like a part time job -- 34 sessions with the therapist referred to me by Sophia's therapist (yes, Tom suggested I get a referral from him becuase he seemed to help her out), 104 or so with the therapist I saw after that, 10 with the POJA is la la land therapist, and several one on one phone calls with Harley, probably 40 calls to Joyce Harley's radio show, and more than 100 emails on the private forum with Harley -- now at nearly 2,000 emails total on MarriageBuilders.

For what? I have gained 40 pounds in not quite 4 years, we have succeeded in completing one of the 24 lessons in Harley's program, and Tom spent no more than 5 minutes talking with me yesterday. Our six year old drew a picture of Tom last Saturday -- the open mouth with teeth bared, the slanted down eyebrows -- an unmistakable face of anger. He was angry at our 11 year old.

Maybe I should change my login name.

Cherished

Well, that is not what really needs "changing", and hopefully you will "get it all". Your 6 year old needs you to "get it soon".......today those pictures he draws are of an anrgy person....tomorrow, those pictures he draws are from jail or worse......think about it....but this time....DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT.

Lem <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Lem --
It's a little girl who drew those pictures. A sensitive little girl who also drew a picture of her mother with tears. I kept the drawings.
Cherished

OK --
I get the idea. From what I see of Tom's perspective, I and the children are not the source of his happiness -- what energizes him and makes life worth living. Instead, we are the impediments to golf, volleyball, running, watching football on TV... Negotiation is used to find the minimum tolerable by me for him to as free as possible to pursue independent activites. A travel job helps to lessen the tension, alright, because he is now free 5 days a week. He says he doesn't like it. If so, he'll find a new job.

He once told me his father told him "Don't get married. Women just want to control you."

That says it all. Now, how do I want to live?

Not like this --

Am I going to do anything about it?

Well, for starters, maybe I need to put my energy into something other than MB, since there's only one person who appears to be MBing. I'll see what he does -- get a new job, go through the course, desire to spend time with me -- OR not.

Cherished