Well, we didn't go to Retrouvaille on Sunday. I told my WH that I really wanted to go and he said that he really didn't want to go. So,instead of going on the offensive with "It's all about you, isn't it?", I told him that if he doesn't want to go then we probably wouldn't get much out of it so I won't push the issue. He seemed relieved with that answere. I think he believed that I was going to raise a stink about it. I did go for the compromise with continueing the daily part of Retrouvaille's program. We haven't done them since the hospital visit. He said he can do that, so we will begin tonight.

Last night, I gave him some physical affection. I sat on his lap and kissed him. He was mildly receptive and I was hopeful for SF when we went to bed. However, he wasn't into the idea. So, stupid me, I asked him why. He said he just wasn't interested in sex right now. I asked him if the A was continueing and was that why. He looked at me like I was crazy and asked me when he would have time to carry on anything. He then said that it is really over and he is just doing what he is supposed to be doing. I told him that I thought he was doing really well and he thanked me. I asked if he would do something for me that I really missed and he asked what?. I asked if he would kiss my back like he used to and he did. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" /> Then he held me for a little while and kissed me again before rolling over to fall asleep. Not quite SF but I enjoyed it all the same.

I guess my taker is trying to come out. It has been hiding for a long time. If I can just keep it in there for a little while longer and stay in Giver mode. Isn't it crazy, how much we love our WS even after all the junk they have put us through? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

Last night was just awful. My WH's mood swings are so hard to deal with and I just can't seem to predict them. It's like a freak storm when you have been sailing in calm seas with the sun overhead and not a cloud in sight.

He seemed to be in a decent mood when he came home from work. Tired and distant but not angry. By the time I returned from the grocery store, he was pissed. I asked him what was going on and he said "nothing". I asked if he was mad at me for something and he said "why would I be mad at you?". Of course, he said it very sarcastically. I just smiled and replied that I wouldn't know but if he wanted to talk to me I was here.

He just continued to stalk around the house and slam things down here and there. I tried to ignore it and just carry on like nothing was going on. Eventually he seemed to calm down. After a few hours, I asked if he was ready to do our dialogue from the Retrouvaille course. He agreed but told me to choose the question because he didn't want to choose. I chose, what I thought to be a very harmless question. "What fun activities can we do as a couple and how do I feel about that?" He went ballistic. First, he became sarcastic and then quickly became hostile. Here is the main part of the discussion:

WS: How can you choose that question after what you did 3 weeks ago? (referring to my OD)
Me: (looking at him without response)
WS: Why would I want to do anything fun with you? You need to choose another question.
Me: I thought this one was pretty harmless.
WS: Well it wasn't, was it?
Me: How about you choose one?
WS: Fine. (pause as he looks at the book) How about this one...How do I feel about working as a team with our finances? (he is looking at me like it is a challenge, I know he is going to when he felt that I didn't support him with the financial problems we were having 2 years ago.)
Me: I'd rather not do that one.
WS: How about "how do I feel when my spouse does something crazy?"
Me: (closing the book) I think that could go both ways.
Ws: (standing up and stomping around the room) I didn't do anything crazy.
Me: you had the affair.
WS: So that makes me crazy?
Me: (quiet)
WS: So what do you call looking at the crap on the computer?
Me: I have apologized for that and I haven't been looking at any of it for 2 years.
WS: It doesn't matter anyway because I don't care what you do anymore.
Me: I am only going to say this one last time...
WS: Shut up!!! (now yelling at the top of his lungs)

The kids are now all downstairs and telling him to stop. My DD asks him why he's being a jerk and that he needs to let stuff go. My oldest DS tells him to leave me alone. My youngest DS calls him a jerk. He yells at all of them to treat him with respect and that he is the Dad. Then he grabs his coat and leaves.

I tell the kids that I'm OK and that I didn't try and start something, that I was trying to keep it harmless for the dialogue. At this point, he comes back in and starts screaming at me with his finger in my face about bringing the kids into it.

I start crying and go upstairs. He leaves. After a few minutes, I come down and tell the kids that I'm OK and that I am just going to go to bed. My oldest hugs me and tells me that he loves me. The other two are pretty quiet and just say goodnight.

I hear him come home and talk with each of the kids. Then he comes into our room and tells me how they are all mad at him. I said only that they saw him screaming at me. He says that he is going to take the rap if we don't make our marriage work even though I did things too. He brings up the financial stuff and how disappointed he was in me. He says that the only thing people will think is that he cheated on me. I didn't answer, just let him talk. He again says that he doesn't care what I do.

He comes to bed then and I finally tell him that I still choose to love him and he can just deal with that. He refers to things I have done since the affair that have hurt him. I asked him what things. He refers to me not trusting him, checking on him, tapping the phone, putting a tape recorder in him car. I only responded with that he knows why I don't trust him and that he is not my enemy, the affair is my enemy and I have and will fight the affair with everything I can. He answered again with that he doesn't care what I do anymore.

This morning, he calls me from work to apologize. He tells me that he was a combination of tired, irritable and in need of a cigarette. Not quite the apology I was wanting but I guess I have to take what I get at this point. I told him that I was sorry for the OD. He told me to have a good day but he didn't say ILY. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Then I just found that he changed his password for his screen name. I quess I will have to talk with him about it since I just went and changed it to something I know.

Is this recovery? Withdrawal? Continuation of the affair?

I have no freakin idea what is going on in this house. But I am hangin in there and trying to not let it get me down. This really sucks. I was almost ready to make him leave. It's really hard to remember who he was before this. I miss the old guy that I remember. I hope this stranger doesn't hang around too much longer.

I know how you feel. It is so spooky reading everyone's post. They are so darn similar. Some exactly the same. I guess Satan just doesn't have a way to dress up a lie any better. A lie is a lie and they have to justify it somehow I guess.

I am sorry I don't have a better response. Regarding what you are going through it sounds like withdrawel still, but on the tail end of it. I was there one time several years ago, but not there now.

God's speed with you marriage. Take care of yourself. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I really hope this is the tail end of withdrawal. It is incredibly hard to deal with this every day. Kind of like being on guard duty 24/7 with no days off in sight. No wonder I need a massage. How tense can a person be before they snap like a twig?

I am doing really well with putting away the thoughts of suicide. I love my children so much and giving them all the pain that I am in is something I won't allow myself to do. I know my WH is freaked out by the whole thing. That really wasn't my intention. I will continue to work on me and my self esteem. Coming to this site is more helpful than I could have imagined. Everyone here is amazing and I am impressed with the caring and support that is being given. <<<huge hugs>>> to all the vets for their love and care. <<<huge hugs>>> to all of us going through our own personal hells.

Tonight, I am just going to play it cool. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> No R talk, no excessive affection, just the kiss goodnight and maybe a hand squeeze at dinner. I will pray for a peaceful evening and maybe if there is anything else to be "discussed" it will wait till I have had a chance to recover from last night.

How can you tell if withdrawal is coming to an end? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

Loni

This probably won't qualify as a hugs and kisses response...

Yes, this is the end of witthdrawl. The issues are turning from the OW to the interaction of you and him. He is focusing on the M--which is good. Unfortunately, you and he have some pretty significant problems to work through which have nothing to do with the A.

An A is a symptom, it isn't the disease. Just because he is "over" OW doesn't mean the M is wonderful. In fact, he probably knows more about what he wants out of the M than he ever did before, and he also is not reluctant to tell you about them. That is all good stuff--you want him to talk about what he wants and doesn't want. His problem is that he doesn't know how to talk in a non-threatening, non-judgmental way.

A question: Do you want him to talk about what is bothering him, or would you prefer not hearing it? Are you ready to hear his complaints?

As soon as he started discussing something you didn't like, you said the equivelent of, "Oh yeah? Well...you had an A!" In essence, you derailed the conversation because you didn't like where the discussion was going.

My read is that you turned a conversation about stuff that didn't have anything to do with the A into a discussion about the A, and then played the role of the "poor, hurt BS" .

He will never be the person he was before the A. That guy is gone--if he ever existed in the first place.

Jimmy,

Sometimes the truth hurts. Thankyou for your post. I need to hear the hard stuff too. You're right, I do want to know how I can improve my part of our marriage. I do want to hear what he is thinking and feeling but it hurts so much to hear him speak to me with so much venom in his voice. I didn't think that by bringing up the A, I was derailing the flow of conversation. I can see where it would, though. I guess my immediate response to being attacked, even verbally, is to stop the attack.

He continues to bring up issues from the past that have been dealt with. He accuses me of not being able to forgive and forget when I feel that he is doing exactly what he accuses me of. It's hard to seperate the babble from the useful info.

I spoke with the MC today and he said that my inlaws are part of the problem. My SIL is friends with the OW and has taken up telling everyone she can that the A was my fault and that I have my WS trapped in our M. She also told everyone in the family and as many out of the family that she could, that I am a Psycho who threatened my MIL with physical violence if my H left me. She has been told by my H and my MIL that it didn't happen and refuses to apologize or speak to me. That really hurts since I have known her since she was 13yrs old. My FIL is angry with me because I went to my SIL's bank and cancelled my account. I told them that there was a rumor being spread by one of the employees that I wouldn't name and that I doubted my financial business would remain private since this employee had told other bank customers. My SIL and I have different last names and I went to another branch from the one she works at. I also stated that I didn't want anyone to be fired or even reprimanded but the situation did warrent being looked at to prevent any future occurances. The branch manager must have heard something because my SIL was called in and had a meeting about appropriate business etiquette. I admit that I was really angry with the whole situation and really embarrassed that people who barely new me now think I am a nut. My MC says that I shouldn't have done it. At the time, I felt that I was doing the right thing but it really came back to bite me. I regret it now just because of the backlash. I am not sorry for calling her on her awful behavior toward me and the complete lack of loyalty.

I have decided that I won't do the holidays with his family this year. I will spend them at work or with my family. I can't believe how they are acting. They have known me for 21 years and I have never given any of them a reason to doubt me or my devotion to my H and my children. I feel so hurt and disgusted with the whole thing.


That probably explains the anger and rage that I am feeling toward my WH. He is so involved in what he wants, feels and thinks that he doesn't even notice that I am going through a nightmare of his making. I can't help but feel that the bad feelings between his family and me wouldn't exist if the A never happened. I feel that 21 years of good behavior and caring have been completely forgotten because my WH decided to cheat on me with my friend. I am really pissed that I have lost so much and stand to lose even more because of his selfishness and all the lies.

Sorry, I guess venting on this site is a lot better than venting on my WH. Sometimes, I feel like a volcano ready to erupt when I think about all the lies, hurt and loss of relationships. I can't even begin to think about what my kids have learned from all of this. My DD's entire Jr. high career was spent dealing with her parents junk.

Thanks for the advice, I really am listening.
Loni

As to the in-laws: No matter what happens, he is always going to be their son or brother. They are always going to take his side. Your H and SIL learned their communication skills (or lack thereof) from his parents. So, you are going to run into the same kind of behavior from them as you would from your H.

I don't know how far you are into MC, but what he needs to work on is learning how to talk and you need to work on listening. You might want to ask your MC about getting into listening and talking skills in a session. (He needs work on his listening skills, but he isn't going to do that until he learns how to talk.)

Are you familiar with "mirroring" in a conversation? You restate what the person said without agreeing or disagreeing with what was said. In that way, you demonstrate that you "heard" him.

E.g.:

H: I'm so angry that you didn't help me with the finances.
W: You're upset about what happened. (You are neither agreeing or disagreeing with him--you are just indicating that you understand.)
H: You should have helped more.
W: You believe I could have done more.

The other thing that goes with this is the idea that "You are responsible for your own feelings." That is, if he is upset over something, you can't do anything about it. You can't "fix" it for him. His feelings are like the weather--you can see that it is raining, and you can confirm that it is raining, but you surely can't stop it from raining. This can be hard for someone to understand.

There is a great book called, "How to talk so kids will listen; how to listen so kids will talk." It is geared to working with teenagers, but many men (me included) are stuck at the maturity level of a 15 year old.

Jimmy,

I haven't read that book. It sounds interesting. Retrouvaille was very enlightening, esp. about the communication. I do have a hard time just listening without getting emotionally involved. I automatically go on the defense, esp. since the affair and his outbursts of anger and fury.

Dr. Harley knows his stuff because the emotional fallout from the A is the worst. I dealt with my mom's death better than I am dealing with this.

I believe that NC has been in effect since July 30th. I know that I have to continue to meet his ENs and avoid LBs. That by itself is so hard but I am trying to do just that everyday and still have some evergy for me and our children. Choosing to love him is proving to be more difficult than I imagined. The help I am receiving on this site is what I am following. You vets are amazing and the new members who are going through their own pain and can still reach out to others is proof to me that there is still good out there.

I saw the OW yesterday when I took her son home from football. Her kids and my kids are best friends. Talk about complicated. Every time I see her I am filled with so much jealousy and anger. I hate that I think she is prettier than me. I hate that she exists right now. I don't wish her dead...just far, far away. Siberia sounds good. I really hate that my WH thinks she is so wonderful and I am nothing to him. I have really been praying for some comfort from these feelings and I am trying not to dwell on them. They don't help anyone. I am trying to remember to follow my own advice and focus on the M and on my family. I am working on making sure that I feel good about how I look and dress. I don't want to compete with her but I need to feel attractive.

I guess the saying of NO PAIN, NO GAIN is on par for my sitch right now.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />Quick Question...My DS 13 is best friends with her DS. He wants to spend the night with his friend. I don't want him anywhere near that woman. Feel free to send me your thoughts please. Should I allow it with strict rules at to drop off and pick up? Or shoot him down and let it lay?

Loni, it sounds like you are doing a great job. Remember that success is measured in months not days or every weeks. This will take time so be very patient.

If your husband comes out of withdrawl soon, he will be more receptive. Keep doing what you are doing.

goodluck

I don't understand this at all. If you feel bad when you see OW, why then do you put yourself around her?

Part of the concept of "I'm responsible for my own feelings" is that you are in control. If you don't like something, change it.

I understand the "sacrifice for the kids" mentality, but this isn't helpful to them. A child is best served by a happy mommy, not by a stressed out mother. Why don't you sever all contact with OW? Have you exposed the A to OW's H?

IMHO, OW has to become a non-entity in your life. It is bad enough to have OW around in your memories. Seeing her in person is too much to ask from you. WS can't, of course, see her.

The life you had before the A is over. It has to be rebuilt. It can never go back to the way it was.

As far as "going on the defensive"--it takes work to do it. It is harder to "mirror" than you might think. If you are stressed out, it is even harder to do.

How long can I do this? He just told me he thinks it's over but he's not leaving. He says I need to let him go and find someone else. He says that he can't do this anymore with me. He says he doesn't want to. He doesn't respect me anymore because of the OD. Why did I do that? I think I just ended my marriage because I couldn't deal with all of this. I am so afraid of losing my kids. Even if he doesn't take them away, I'm afraid his family will turn them against me. Is this fog talk or is this marriage over? I have apologized and tried to explain why I chose the OD and also why I changed my mind and decided to live. He says that I have hurt him too much and he doesn't care what I do anymore. He says that I hurt him with the exposure and what he calls gossiping to my friends.

Have I destroyed my only chance?

Loni

ARe you in IC? ARe you on AD's?

The suicide attempt is scary to those around you who do love you. How do I know? My mom when I was little used to threaten it to my sister and I...we were about age of my son now. I remember it all too well. What I know now, we believe my mom was having an affair. I found out approx. 3 years ago that my sis is my half sister...blood test.

I remember my mom doing that. She had a gun in a hatbox. And my sis and I would cry and say put it down.

It is something that to this day keeps us not emotionally close to our mom. She was so angry and hurt about her own life that she did not care how we felt about her or if we got hurt by her actions.

That is what an OD or any suicide attempt does to those around them. And yes, it makes them angry. So expect some! It is not a facilitator to get you sympathy ok?

Now about the fog. How long does it last? Harley says it last about 2 years from d day at longest. Some say it could be as long as 2 years from the solidification of an affair relationship. Or 2 years past the divorce if the marriage ends.

I just know that my xh and I will be divorced as of 2 years on Dec. 27. He will have been remarried for 2 years on Dec. 31. They separated for a few weeks this summer...That would make it 1.5 years since my divorce happened. I don't give them much longer. If they were my patient, I'd say they had an extremely POOOR prognosis and I'd suggest to "get their affairs (sorry for that word) in order!

Affairs can last for years...but I think it has to be after a huge exposure has happened. After the big exposure start the time clock.

Too much are working against the affairees. It's like they're trying to make the laws of the universe work FOR them instead of against them.

Right now, fix you.

If your WS doesn't want to be fixed that is his problem. Not yours.

YOU ARE NOT RESPONSIBLE NOR CAN YOU CHANGE THE ACTIONS OF OTHERS...That's something to get down now!

But you can learn how to control yourself. And self control is key in doing either plan A, plan B, or even thinking of recovery.

I would say focus on that..controlling yourelf and doing a good plan A for right now.

Loni,

I wish I could offer words from experiance but I a cannot. My 1st attempt at what my wife said 4 years ago was a hopeless situation turned out ok, but we got off track not meeting each others EN's and hence here we are again.

I would say that I think it is fog speak, but I think you have to resolve yourself to the following.

Accept that you can only take care of you and work on it by yourself if you still want the marriage, then except the fact, hard as it might be, that he may not work on it and eventually be gone.

I am trying to do that. It is a huge struggle, but I just pray to God for me to be strong and calm my nerves and worry.

Does it always work? No, but I do have comfort at times. I can say this. It is better than ringing my hands 100% of the time and pineing away.

I wish I could offer a hug of encouraugement. Heck I wish I could get one too, but stay online here and many people will support you and offer you much better advice than I can give.

In fact, take mine with a big grain of salt.

In Christ

Thanks for the reply. I am so sorry for the hurt your mom put on you. My kids are unaware of the OD. They think my WH and I went for a long drive and they were in be when we came back home. The major reason for changing my mind was the fact that all the hurt I was going through would have been heaped on them and I don't want to do that to the people I love the most in this world.

I am in counseling and I am working every day on taking care of me. This is probably, hopefully, the worst experience I will have in this lifetime. It is confusing and frustrating and extremely painful. I am aware that there are ways that I could have been a better wife to my H and I am working on those. If this marriage ends, maybe I can be better in my next M, if I ever choose to try again. There would be a lot of baggage from this experience for me to unload before I could even begin to think about loving again.

What started the whole thing last night was that my 13 yr old DS told me he saw my H talking to the OW at a couple of school events within the last month. My H at first denied the contact and then admitted that they just ran into each other by accident and that all he said was "hello" and "bye". He became very angry with the "accusations" and said he will not live like this. He said that if he runs into "somebody" that he shouldn't have to tell me everytime. I said that she is not just "somebody" as long as he has feelings for her and that contact with her is dangerous to our family and marriage. He just scoffed at that and said that I was dangerous to our family.

He didn't say much this am when he left for work. Before I went to bed last night he told me that he would show our kids just how loving our marriage will be and that he would stay and do what he was supposed to do since the kids will hate him if he left. He said all of that angrily and sarcastically. Like he will show me how horrible a marriage can be. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

What do you all think?

Loni

Actually I am feeling a little better this morning. I don't want to give up yet. I will keep trying until I there isn't a marriage any longer. The way I see it, I am still his wife and I need to act like it whether he acts like a husband or not. I will show him love whether he appreciates it or not. I will also show myself love because I know I deserve it. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

The MC says it isn't time to give up yet. However, he feels that NC isn't possible for my WH since the kids all go to school together and are friends. It is really hard to avoid the OW in this small town. I understand the rare occurence of them seeing each other but I don't like the need to say anything to the other. She won't avoid him and he doesn't seem to feel the need to avoid her. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

The kids gave him a hard time last night about how he was treating me and for talking to the OW. He was really angry and went for a drive. He adores the kids, esp. our DD. He can't handle them losing respect for him and he can't handle the fact that they don't accept his affair as something that just happens sometimes and we need to adjust because of it. He feels that our marriage was a mistake and the affair was the culmination of a true friendship and love. I know that is fog. He doesn't. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

Should I ask him to give our marriage 100% for a set amount of time? 6mos or maybe 12mos. A time limit in which he would have no contact with her and follow the rules set by Dr. Harley. I feel that with the proper amount of time and no contact with her we just might be able to find love again.

I really need some honest opinions please. I can Plan A for awhile longer but I can't keep doing it if it's going to be thrown away every time the kids have a ball game or some activity at school.

Loni

As to the incident at school, did you tell him how much hurt and anguish it caused you? Did you frame the problem as him helping you cope?

If you really can't do NC, then you and he have to establish some pretty strict guidelines about what he can and can't do when they encounter each other.

Have you exposed the A to OW's husband?

Loni:

Let me preface my comments first by saying that I am not one of the experts here. However, I can relay my personal experiences which may be of some help in dealing with your issues.

I want you to try and keep a positive outlook as long as there continues to be any progress but also don't want to sugarcoat this process. Even after true NC and the lifting of the fog, the recovery process will most likely be a long, difficult and bumpy ride. The end result is worth it for most of us but I doubt that any BS would say that they didn't carry most of the load during plan A and well into recovery. It's not fair, just the way it is.

Even well into our recovery, I often feel like I am giving 125% and my FWW is giving only 90%. The reality is that I have made some changes in my behaviors that have made it easy for me to give everything I have to the marriage. In doing that, I am completely filling my W's EN. I believe that she is also giving everything she is capable of giving at the current time and much more than she ever has during our marriage. Are my EN's being met completely? No, but they are closer to being met than ever before. And this is long after the A ended and pretty far into our recovery process.

I had some of the best days since D-Day over the last several days. My FWW major LB'd last night when she was really trying to be honest about her feelings but compared how that she was feeling now (pressured, needing space, etc.) to early in our marriage. You can fill in the blanks...my mind thought here we go again and at some point in the future we will be right back where we were when she made the unfortunate choice to seek her fulfillment outside the marriage. She didn't mean it come across this way, but my interpretation and probably my reaction was not good. Intitially this was a major setback in our recovery.

The difference was that after the fumes and high emotions settled down, we were able to talk through this rationally and I explained to her why that how she said this had hurt me so much. I also reassured her that her continued honesty including sharing her feelings was critical for our M to succeed. She explained that what she really wanted to get across was not that my EN's were too high, but that she felt like that she was failing by not being able to meet all my EN's when I was so completely meeting hers. My response was that what was important was that she was making a conscious effort to make our M better by trying to meet my EN's as best she could. I believe that as time goes on, my needs will be completely met. Partly because she will be able to contribute more but also partly because my EN's will be somewhat less because I will be dealing less with the insecurities and other issues that all BS's have to face along with the pain of the reality of the A.

There are many days even now when I question whether I made the right decision to stay with my M and if I had anything else to give when the WS had been a taker for so long. I answer this to myself by saying that if I didn't give everything that I could to save the M, I would never forgive myself for not trying. Somehow, even on the worst days I find the strength to continue to give even more even when my EN's are being met less. But then the next day comes and my W meets all my EN's and I am completely satisfied with my decision to commit to this R.

You have a difficult situation with the inability to have true NC. Perhaps you should consider the possibility of moving to another town so that NC could be accomplished. In the meantime, you must be able to relate to your husband that he has to provide an environment for you to feel safe and to heal. This includes setting strict boundaries like suggested by Jimmy. He may have to be in the same place as OW, but he doesn't need to have any communication with her. He can't still be friends and try to make your M work. In the meantime, if he is progressing at all and is able to give more to the process everyday than he did the day before, you are working in the right direction.

It is going to be a rollercoaster and many days the only thing that keeps him in the seat is your committment to hold him in. There are no seatbelts on this ride. Keep communicating to him the situations that cause you pain without LB'ing as you do it. He needs to know how you feel but instead of that coming out as resentment or throwing the A back into his face, explain that it is a process that will allow you to cope with the situation and heal over time.

Hope this helps some.

One more thing about the time limits. I don't believe that you should set strict time limits with him. It is all right for you to set an amount of time that you are willing to continue to try but if you give him an inch, he will take a mile. If you tell him that he has to commit 100% for six months, his deluded mind will tell him that you are going to stick around for another six months regardless of what he does and so he will continue to hang on to the addiction of the A. I know this doesn't make any sense but the one thing I have learned through all this is that if you try to find logic or rationality in the illogical or irrationality of an A, you will be looking a long time. You have to be able to accept that none of this makes sense and that you can only control how you react to the situation. Plan A'ing as hard as it is, is designed to accomplish two purposes: First, to end the A and secondly to create an environment where the WS can "fall back in love with you". I think that part is especially important where the A is built around the fantasy that they have found their soulmate. What they found is a sex partner who can fill EN's without worrying about getting the kids to a ballgame, paying the bills, dealing with in-laws, etc. It is a fantasy that can last for a while but not forever. You committment to continue Plan A and carry most of the burden of rebuilding will hopefully soon he will see that the fantasy that he was living in is not all that he thought it was. He has a wife who is willing to commit to making his M better and once he has made that committment, he will not only find more happiness with himself but he will regain his personal dignity and the respect from you and his kids.

nottoday,

awesome last 2 posts. I hope they help you Loni.

Not to piggy back for myself, but I would like my WW to read these post. I think it would be a major LB though. Kinda in her face. I mean it is exactly what is going on in our situation.

Loni,

Keep working hard.

Thanks nottoday

Waiting:

I don't think that asking your WW to read these posts is an LB at all. Frame it as something that she can do to see all sides of the situation, not as something to throw in her face. My FWW still (11 years after AE) still struggles with reading on this board. I occasionally ask her to read certain posts, not to get back at her but to allow her to more fully understand what I have gone through. She does it for me but feels tremendous anguish and guilt still today when she reads the sitchs. She realizes what consequences her actions had for all the others involved, not by their choice but by her and OP's choices. If she had read some of these posts when she was going through with the A, I have no doubt it would have ended much sooner and more abrubtly. And that is exactly what needs to happen for both of you to start to rebuild your R.