Thanks nottoday,

It sounds like good advice. Maybe I will have the courage and correct timing to show it to her. I have at least printed the last 15 post.

Loni,

Once again, please hand in there. I am praying for you and your marriage. God's speed and strenght.

Wow! Awesome posts from WOL Notto and Jimmy.

I will hang in there. I definetely feel like I am holding him in his seat. The future of our marriage is in both our hands but I don't have to live in fog and can see, with the aid of you all and dear friends, the reality of our sitch and there is hope for renewal after the smoke clears. I was wondering if it was time for PlanB. I am not ready for it yet so I will continue with Plan A.

He seems to be without hope. I will do my best daily to show him that our family and our home are great places to be. I hope that my love for him is enough to break through the wall of ice he has around his heart. Maybe all I can hope for right now is to prevent further build up of that wall.

I love my H very much despite all that has happened. Our kids are worth the work involved to be a couple again.

Loni

Melody would probably be the best one to answer your questions regarding timing of Plan B. Hopefully she will see this and respond to you but in the meantime I think you are still several months away from wanting to Plan B. I have seen several posts where it is stated that Plan A should be up to six months. This gives adequate time to build up the love bank so that once the A is over and the fog lifts, the WS has had the opportunity to see what he/she is missing and what the possibilities are. Stay with Plan A until you hear otherwise from someone else here who has a better handle on timing issues.

Hi Loni !
I understand your concerns. I used plan A effectively to end my dear Squid's deeply entangled affar last year. Plan A is to remind your H what he is potentially leaving behind.Plan B is remove the BS from the chaos before all love is lost after a decent plan A has been effected. I'll try to explain:

* Your instinct as a BS is to be angry, indignant, sad, fearful, reactionary etc and no-one could blame you. However actions supporting these emotions will REINFORCE the fantasy in your WS warped mind that you are a worse bet as a life partner than the OP and that the A was justified.

* You may feel 'better' by venting, doing the vengeance dance etc, but this will almost certainly fatally break your relationship.

* Plan A is a carefully calculated response to the fact of an affair that recognises the strengths and weaknesses of the BS position at this time, and who wants to save their M. It is NOT instinctive, in fact it is counter-intuitive, but it works if adhered to. To use MaddyKs analogy :scratching poison ivy rash feels SO GOOD but causes nothing but grief. Instinct does not always help in complex situations.

* FACT a BS cannot directly stop an affair unless they kill or kidnap one or both infidels, and thats not usually recommended by MC

* FACT NEITHER is a BS as helpless as they think they are, and has an armoury of weapons to use. Plan A bundles these for use in a proven strategy.

* Plan A recognises the uncomfortable reality that although the BS is IN NO WAY responsible for the A and that an A is NEVER JUSTIFIED or OK the BS HAS contributed to the marital environment being ripe for an A. This is a major thing to choke down for most BS ( it was for me!) , but its also a major enabler to recovery. Once you know what broke in YOU you can start fixing it.

* Using tools such as exposure the affairs bindings can be exposed to the light. Typically A's only make sense in a by-the-hour highway motel for two hours at a time when only the lying infidels listen to each others fog drivel and 'lets pretend' sex. Exposure to OPs significant other, and carefully targeted family and friends and colleagues forces this shaky, sex-justfying bag of fluff to the scrutiny of the real world. In MOST cases, the bindings disappear like vampires in the sun leaving the infidels 'love affair' looking like the tawdry, cowardly alternative to fixing a flagging marriage that it truly is.
And YES exposing is counter intuitive too, but it WORKS !! see now ?

* So when the A is exposed as a shabby thing, Plan A also makes sure that you, the BS have ALREADY and PROACTIVELY recognised the failings in your behaviour and demeanour that led to the marriage flagging and made a start at fixing them. You have also patently disarmed your WS by not being violent, disrespectful, unforgiving nor any of the other things that they expected and FEARED you would be. In fact you raised your game SIGNIFICANTLY as spouse material and they begin to notice it, really.

* WSs fear that with the death of the A, they have no safe place to go, not the OP and certainly not home to face the judgment and wrath of the BS they have hurt do much....except the BS has done everything possible to provide a place of calm safety for the WS to return to. My own FWW thought it was a trick! She couldn't believe the loving and non-hudgmental "nest" I'd made for her when she felt she deserved it so little...through Plan A I'm a better Dad than I've been in years, a better listener and more thoughtful of my FWWs needs. Plus MUCH slimmer, fitter and more buff ( GgrrrrOOOWWWLLLLL ! )

* SOME A's bindings are stronger than others and SOME WSs find it harder than others to return home, so plan A may not always work at killing the A and providing a sanctuary for the WS to recover in. Thats when plan B kicks in. Plan B REMOVES the sanctuary , love , forgiveness and support so carefully built and demonstrated in PLAN A from the WS. You do a good plan A and you will be REALLY missed, while OM looks everyday more like the unreliable, lying betrayers they always are.

* See how it works ? By choosing to lay down your righteous indignation in plan A you are in NO WAY a doormat any more than spying for the Allies made brave intelligence folks in WW2 Nazis. You are bravely and deliberately overruling your primal instinct in support of the marriage God gave you and you gave to God and each other.

* STUDY(not just read) SAA, HN/HN , this site, the old heads stories and become aware of the dynamics of affairs. Deconstruct your own situation and apply the principles to it. Knowledge is power. Understand that affairs are JUST LIKE medical conditions, the symptoms, prognosis and cure are all utterly predictable in most cases. Your sitch feels unique BUT IT AIN'T ! THIS STUFF HAS WORKED FOR THOUSANDS OF COUPLES IN EXACTLY YOUR SITCH !

* Finally I have said before that Plan A is a heroes gig and I still think so. For a 'silverback' like me the easy way is to go crashing around hitting people , suing people and making lives bad. Instinct isn't bravery.

Bravery is doing what is needed, however uncomfortable, frightening and counter-instuitive to rebuild a stable loving platform for all involved in the mess of an affair.

* If plan A has worked CLEANLY for a coupla months and your WS is not showing recommitment back to your M there is a strong risk that he will deplete his love bank account with you to such a level that you just divorce and give up.

How plan B SHOULD work is that you spend some time through plan A showing your WS what a fantastic spouse you are, then you withdraw ALL benefits of you as a spouse until such times WS decides to recommit fully to you OR you decide to divorce.

It is a removal of yourself from the drama of WS affair.

A couple months of Plan A DONE RIGHT is usually enough. If the A isn't dead by then and WS recomitted , you need plan B. Mortarman is the plan B guru. Seek out his posts.

Be strong. You CAN do this !

Even if Plan A and Plan B doesn't recover your M , it will leave you a much more "examined" person able to move on in life and not repeat the errors that contributed to the problems in the M.

I hope I have helped explain my take on Plan A. And to close, Plan A has worked UP THE WAZOO for us so far so I'm not talking theory. Just over a year ago my baby was stealing our kids college fund to set up home with OM. Right now she is upstairs in my bed waiting for me to go cuddle her.

All blessings

Bob's post is about as succinct that you can get it. Loni, you will learn that none of this is new and neither you or your husband is unique. That is why reading about others' situations is important, because as you do, you will see that the actions and reactions of both you and your husband has been rather typical.

As Bob said, it is time to get smarter! Time to understand yourself and your husband. to understand the feelings and where they will lead. that way, you can head off the problem before it happens.

You will need to learn fog babble. Orchid is great with that. I have become adept at learning how to decifer it. You see, while fog babble is almost always wrong (fog babble being the statements WSs make that no where come close to reality), there is truth in there to be culled out.

An example. A WS says "I am not in love with you anymore. I dont think I ever loved you. You were never there for me, especially when I was trying to get our finances under wraps. You should just find someone else."

Now Loni, you can see that this statement is nonsense. And probably isnt true. You were "NEVER" there for him? Puleaassee. He "NEVER" loved you. One quick way to see fog babble is to look for absolutes. Always, never, forever, wont, cant, etc. Anytime you see those words, it is almost always babble. But in the example I gave you, what could you possibly find in there and bring out to help yo uand your marriage? Remember, you are trying to do this while at the same time throw away the rest of the stuff he says because babble is irrelevent.

That statement had one thing in there you could use. It is the statement about the finances. In fog babble, when they bring up SPECIFIC issues or events, these are keys. Now, you dont argue with them about it. Maybe there were some problems with finances. And maybe it wasnt all your fault. But he wont hear that right now. The reason you pull this out is for you to look at where YOU can improve and where YOU can meet needs in Plan A.

You see, having your husband there and talking is a great thing for your marriage. Even in his babble, there are opportunities to move forward. But you can only do so by understanding the truth in the babble.

Bob has given you an excellent roadmap. Whether you know it or not, you have come a long ways. But there is still a long ways to go.

Get smart Loni. Learn about this stuff. Understand adultery, marriage, etc. Understand where you and your husband are at. You will then be able to weather the storms and help guide your husband to who he should be. Only then will your marriage have a chance.

You have done well so far without much knowledge. Now, you need to become an expert on marriage, adultery, etc.

In His arms.

I can not thank you enough for the wonderful advice. I am following it to the letter. I have read and studied both the books and I am studying the posts of the vets you mentioned.

Last night went well. I made dinner and joked around with the kids and even with my H. I was concerned because we had a sitch, up here, that could have really caused a lot of tension for my H and I. A counselor at my children's school committed suicide the day before yesterday and we just heard about it yesterday afternoon. My H told me about it and I was shocked and saddened. We talked about the suicide with the kids that night and my H made a few references that suicide is never an option and that it is selfish, etc... I didn't interupt or detract from what he said. However, I made up a contract for our family. I called it a "contract for personal responsibility". I addressed that if any of our family or friends comes to us with feelings of sadness, being overwhelmed, or thoughts of suicide, that we would listen and support them and help them get the help they need. Also, that if one of us feels this way, we will talk to someone in our family, a friend or a counselor. We also agreed to not end our lives with our own hand but to let God be in charge of our destiny. Another important part of the contract was to live our lives with honor, integrity and honesty. All of us, including my H signed it willingly. My H said that I should sign it for me not for him or the kids. I signed it because of all of us.

What do you think? Kind of Hokey? It felt good though and I don't know how to show my family that I am committed to living out my life regardless of the hardships.

I am making a point of showing my H affection in non threatening ways. A kiss on the back of his neck when he is falling asleep, a hand squeeze, a short, gentle touch to the small of his back(my favorite spot). I long for loving touches in return but I can hang in there and wait patiently for his feelings to return.

I will make sure that my actions show my H that he and the children our my first priority. I will try to show that our home is the place to be for love, encouragement and support.

Thank you for the posts, I am reading and learning them.
Loni

What do I do with open hostility? He really acts like he despises me. I will be just taking a nap or vacuuming the room and he will say something rude or mean. When I confront the statement, he just gets sarcastic and says what would he be upset about.

I feel like he is trying to prove to me that our marriage can continue but I am going to not enjoy it. Kind of like, the whole "be careful what you wish for" thinking. He speaks to me rudely in front of his family, the kids, whoever. He constantly says he doesn't care what I do. He is baiting me and trying to start arguments and when I don't take the bait, he gets cold and avoids me.

Plan A, Plan A, Plan A....that has become my mantra. I am still trying to show him love with little things. I made one of his favorite dishes for him. He told me he wasn't hungry when he saw me making it. No thanks or other acknowledgement. I just smiled and said that when he felt hungry, it would be in the fridge.

Tonight, he spoke to me with such coldness and hostility in front of his brother and his brother's girlfriend. I didn't say anything at the time but afterward, I told him that I could get him a t-shirt with "I hate my wife" on it to make it easier to get his point across. He said "hate" is a strong word. That's all he said. I shouldn't have been sarcastic. I know better. I have a lot of years of sarcasm training to overcome. I later told him that it is going to be very hard for his family to respect me and our marriage if this continues. He didn't answer me.

No wonder his family thinks we ought to break up. He is so obviously unhappy with me. All they care about is his happiness. I know that they don't necesarily want a divorce in the family but I don't expect any support from them when it comes to confronting my WS' behavior. They just look at me like I am pathetic and so dependant on my H that I will put up with anything.

My WS has just looked over my shoulder while I am typing and questioned me about who reads these posts and do I enjoy telling everyone about him? I told him that it is anonymous and it's just an open forum for support and encouragement from others who are going through the same problems in their marriages. He hates that I do this, the books, anything that supports marriage. The fog is heavy today and has been for the past week.

I agree with the posts about Plan B. I am not ready for that yet but I can see how I would be if this continues. It's hard to recognize my H in the guy living here right now. I wouldn't tolerate this treatment from anyone so I must really be committed to seeing this through.

I have decided to work overtime on Thanksgiving. I'm a nurse so there is always a chance to work the holidays. I mainly did this to avoid going to his family holiday. My SIL will be there and I am still very angry over the actions she has taken. I also don't want to sit there and be treated disrespectfully by my H in front of his family. I feel like it is a double edged sword. If I stand up for myself, no matter how appropriately, I will be judged. If I don't then I am the pathetic pushover. What do you all think? The money would be nice for Christmas anyway. I'm hoping that things will be better before Christmas or I might be avoiding them for that holiday too.

How can I show this man love and kindness when he openly acts hostile toward me? God knows that I love him. I am still choosing to love him. And by "love" I mean it as a verb. I really believe that the word "love" is used as a noun too often. Like it is an uncontrollable feeling and not an action. Do his actions still seem like withdrawal? I really hope it is and that it's coming to an end soon. I feel like I am living with a stranger.

Anyway, I am still hanging in there and Plan A continues despite the speed bumps.

Loni

Loni

What do I do with open hostility?

Hard isn;t it ?

Squid was POISONOUS to me after d-day and during withdrawal. I dealt with it is a few different ways that were effective for me:
* studied everything I could about affairs so I could see that this spite was a symptom of post affair behaviour, and nothing personal.
* Locked up and distracted my taker on a semi-permanent basis. I expected nothing back from Squid for months. WS are usualy not capable of a heathy relationship with ANYONE, not OP, not BS,not God or even their own reflection. It manifests as knee-jerk spite and a conscious effort to exascerbate any perceived shortcomings in the BS. It's not nice knowing you're REALLY at fault in a BIG WAY. Add the entitled mood of many or most WS and you can se how mixed up they can be.

Its hard but it works - : expected NOTHING from your H until the fog starts to lift Invest in yourself - do fun things, go our, work out. Feed your taker in that way. Your H is not capable of being loving and investing in you now.
* Boundaries. Work out what they are loni. The things you will not tolerate. Make sure your H knows this, respectfully of course.
* Tell your H that you want him but you don't need him. And that he is free to leave if he chooses. But if he stays, sooner or later he is going to have to treat you with respect and reinvest in your marriage else you will stop working on recovery. Scary? Not so scary as the alternative which is to live apologetically for ever.
* back off the affection. The kisses and the ILYs.
This is usually anaethema to WS. Be loving and supportive and affectionate but no touching and no ILY. It makes you seem needy and pathetic. You'll know when it is time to restart physical affection !.

This all worked for me. Your mileage may vary.

All blessings.

Loni, I can't give you experienced advice since I'm going through something similar, but please listen to Bob. If you haven't already read "Bob's Newly Betrayed Spouse MB Toolkit", read it NOW. It was and is invaluable to me.

Bob, I just want to let you know that your posts have helped me in so many ways.

They have helped me understand what the WS is going through and how to best deal with them.

I still find it hard to deal with fog talk. It is so hard to seperated yourself from what is coming out of the WS mouth.

Bob you said "you'll know when it is time to restart physical affection!". How did you know. Does the WS begin to show some affection towards BS at some point.

Also, when did Squid start to come out of the for after NC? and how did you know this was happening?

HTW, I knew when it was time for affection !

"ILY" and affection was cheapened in its currency to me know that Squid so recently used both on OM and vice versa. I felt PATHETIC that I was offering same, and needing same when Squid was being SO cold and sinister.

So I did a 180 and withdrew physically. ILY became 'I care for you', platonic touch replaced any hint of sexual touch. I slept in boxers ( laugh if you want! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />).

I got my head together and felt happier. I was able to bravely enforce my boundaries. I 'did a deal' ( threatened) OM with destruction if he ever contacted my family again, such was my confidence, and NC started properly.

A couple of months of NC and we were having a pleasant weekend at our holiday home in Wales. We were having a great evening in the pub with friends, and I went to the bathroom.

On the way out i bumped into Squid who seduced me ! Kissed me like in a black & white movie.

Took me back to bed and we made love several times. Proper love, not bone-jumping.

Squid has told me since that my distance drove her crazy, and she couldn't help herself eventually. I did not feel bad after this. We slept in each others arms. It was like amini plan B.

Your H will make it very clear when he will welcome affection , and ILY can return when you feel the words carry unsullied value again.

Squid withdrew hard & "crashed" two months in or so. Almost a nervous breakdown.

She started to display a different view of her affair from then on, it softening periodically over the next eight months ir so until she would cry with shame at any mention of the A.

Now she has been completely fog free for I would say eight months. We are 15 months after d-day.

That fog is the only thing that protects their shattered self esteem, so it is rarely cast off quickly. Stick with it.

Bob, didn't you find that you were almost forced to reduce the amout of affection to Squid just by the nature of her indifference to it? This is what I have found. I no longer say ILY or try to hug or kiss her. Like you said I do it in other, less obvious ways that may include (asking if she needs or would like certain things).

As a result of my WW not letting me meet her most importatnt EN's (affection & conversation), I have focused more on the one's that she lets me meet (family committment, honesty and openess, fiancial support).

You said that Squid "crashed" two months in. Was this two months from d-day or NC?

Do most WS "crash" at some point?

I will withdraw the ILYs and the affectionate touches except for the nonsexual or needy ones. You are so right, Bob, about the ILY being cheapened by the A. It makes me ill to think about the OW and my H saying that to each other. The idea of telling him that he can come or go scares the h#%$ out of me. Dumb as it seems since I have all but held the door open for him on a few occasions and I have told him that he can go and that I can't stop him. A few times (4) he has left for short periods of time and several other times he threatened to leave only to stay.

This morning when he left for work he gave me a kiss goodbye and said "I love ya, babe." <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I responded in kind and wished him a good day. Was that kosher? I'm trying not to read anything into his statement. He could have just forgot himself and said what he always said before the A.

I would love to make a "deal" with the OW. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> I have threatened her reputation, physical safety etc... more than a few times. She is a real nightmare. This is her 3rd affair that she admits to and her best friend and XH both say that there were many more during her M. My H only believes what she has told him, however. OF Course. I have asked my H how he can trust someone that admits to cheating on her H so many times to be faithful. He "fog induced delusions" says that she wouldn't cheat on him because she didn't love her H like she loves him. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> <gag> I almost feel like I should have sent him away a year ago and this whole thing would have been settled by now because I am sure she would have shown her true colors before long and he would have finally woken from the fog.

Plan A continues... On tonights agenda will be dinner at 6. Game with the kids. TV till 10 and bed. I will read and take a long hot wonderful bath and I won't touch my H at all unless he touches me first. I can do this. I am strong and I am educated in how to win my H back from the A. Also, I will be spending some time in prayer. God is the best ally I have and I know He is with me every step of the way.

I value your insight and support so much. Bob, you are a true motivation for me to continue. May your love with Squid grow every day. HTW, I am still following your posts and praying for the fog to lift and restore your W to you.

Loni

HTW

Not really. I sort of felt if I gave more I'd get more.

I realised I was being a bit pathetic as well as wasting a good tool.

Squid crashed about two months into NC. It was a mess.

Many WS who are bought hom from active, passionate affairs seem to crash. The realisation of what they have done is mixed with their confused strong emotions.

Squid hit the wall at around 180 MPH. FUBAR.

Bob, I am really interested in learning about why WS "crash". Did Squid crash after you reconnected after the night at the pub?

What causes the WS to crash and how is it different from the withdrawal period?

Do all WS eventually crash?

Thanks

I did very well last night with witholding the affectionate touches and the ILYs. I was friendly but not clingy. Receptive but not expecting. I was so proud of myself when I went to bed. My H was quiet for most of the night but he didn't seem to be as moody. He ate well and joked around a little with the kids. All in all, a nice evening for all of us. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

That is until he came to bed..

At first, I kept up the good work. He kissed me goodnight. I didn't initiate at all. He rolled over and spooned me and I snuggled in for a second until he rolled away and I said "sweet dreams" and rolled over. I fell asleep and awoke awhile later to him spooning me again. Next thing you know, he is initiating sex.

I was thinking that your advice was incredible and what a quick response. I responded and I was honestly thanking God for finally seeing some loving affection. He hasn't let himself finish (you know what I mean) for quite a few months. He always stops and says he's tired. Not last night, and again I was thanking God for an interested and involved partner. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Sounds wonderful, huh? I felt great...until he started to speak. He asked how was it? I said it felt great. He said he didn't think so because it was just sex and he didn't feel anything else. He said that he won't be doing that again and apologized for using me to "get off". I didn't know what to say. I ended up saying that I was fine with the sex and I know it will be better in a while. He asked me if I felt it really would be better later. I told him that I had no doubt. I really do have doubts, however. I could just cry. What a let down. Am I reading this wrong? Could it really be a sign that things are improving? I am worried that he won't ever feel anything for me again.

Until I know otherwise, Plan A continues.
Loni

It must have really hurt to hear that.

All in all, I think you handled the whole thing very well. Telling him that it will be better was a tremendous response.

You really are making progress. For a man, sex leads to emotional involvement with a woman. (Woman tend to need emotional involvement before there is sex.) If he is a normal male, the odds of him having sex with you regularly are about 10000 to 1 in your favor.

It is pretty clear that you can get his motor running, so I just see this getting better and better.

As to what he is saying, think of him as an outpatient from a mental institution.

Loni, I'm so sorry you have to hear things like that. Remember much of this is fog talk so try not to take it personally. I know it is hard.

Back in early August my WW and I had SF and she started crying afterwards. Just last week she told me it was because she felt nothing during the act. It was so hard for me to hear that.

In late August we had our last SF and it was great. My WW was affectionate and kissing me with passion. She was stroking my face afterwards. Well you know what, she can't remember that session, only the one in early August where she felt nothing.

So you see, the WS has a distorted view of history so don't take everything they say to heart. I've been where you are and it hurts, but remember you are dealing with an alien right now.

Loni, is your WH still in contact? Your posts indicate that he may still be in contact with OM.

If he is in contact the fog won't lift. Can you give us an update as to the nature of his contact with the OM.

Maybe some of the vets can give you adivce on how to get to NC.

Your are doing great, keep it up!

HTW

Wise head WorthATry used to describe the wholesale crumbling of a WS as the reality of their actions strikes them as the 'crash'. Their arrogance disspates with the fog and fear comes crashing in from a clear blue sky to strike terror into them.

It seems to happen when a WS has been particularly revsionist in their recent view of marriage history. The more entitled, and arrogantly "in love" the WS, and the more final the destruction of the affair - the worse the crash seems to be.

Squid, sad to say, was as arrogant, haughty and entitled as I have ever seen a WS. She had planned to run away with OM on a visit to his estranged son's funeral ( amazing !)but I exposed to OMs GF with written poof of PA in a letter OM sent to Squid on the day before the funeral journey.

The world just about caught fire that day. OM wanted to kill me, OMGF thanked me as a hero, and Squid was demonically vicious to me. I had to recover some TV that day too for work, boy that was tough.

I plan A'ed up the WAZOO. Squid was mean and distant. Om told her he wold wait " one year or ten years for her".

After about 2 weeks of NC, Squid phoned OM and was told unceremoniously to "f'k off". I had threatened OM very credibly by then. ten year ? har-de-har.

Squid and I had a conversation where she let on that she had thrown away everything and was gutted.

Later than week she fell apart. Crying, incoherent, moping, not sleeping...she was fearful as she surveyed the wreckage of her lies. That was a CRASH indeed.

Standing there emerging from the smoke and dust was ...ME !<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Smiling, plan A'ing, looking buff, speaking softly and lovingly. Non judgmental. Welcoming.

Our recovery started that day. The holiday home incident was three weeks after then.:)

Search on "crash" in posts by worthatry and noodlefrom about a year or so ago to see references. Its not used so much lately on the boards but IME its a very real phenomenon. maybe it should be posted more.

I miss WAT, but he's absent because he's happy with his lady. No better reason to leave MB behind !

hope this helps HTW

NC has been broken twice by his admission. I believe the affair ended the first week of May when she broke it off with him. Of course, she made it seem like she was being a martyr for the well-being of our marriage. He talked with her face to face on July 30th. He says it was only for 15-20 mins. I can't prove otherwise since we were seperated at the time. According to what she told her friend and what he told me, the affair did not resume. She told him to go home to me. She also told him that she hasn't been dating anyone so I think my H was still hanging on to the fantasy.

That was the date of NC that I believed until my son told me about seeing my H talking with her at a school event in Sept. and three weeks ago at a different school event. My WH became very upset with me and the kids when I asked him about the continued contact and began making threats about leaving and how he can't live like this with everyone watching him and always under suspicion.

A few weeks ago, when I told him about her being on an online dating site, he seemed genuinely surprised and upset. I wondered if he was still in the affair, thinking that she was being "faithful" to him. I only told him about seeing her on the site when he was talking about leaving and I challenged his fantasy about happily ever after with her. He actually told me that he thinks I might have saved our marriage by showing him that.

I do know that he goes off the deep end about any kind of snooping. Just like your wife, HTW. I have considered putting a much better recorder in his truck or a tracking device to see if he is really going where he says he is. I know that if he found either, he would leave and blame it all on me and my "inability to get over this". I don't believe that is the case. I really think that if he hadn't become such a good liar, then I would have no problem believing his word.

Loni