I am not sure why. The only answer that I can come up with is that I wasn't getting all of my needs met. To her however, that sounds like an excuse. I know that there is no excuse.

For me, I know in my heart what it is that I will loose if we divorce. I know that because of the initial seperation. I dont want that. I took my relationship with her for granted. I wont do that again. But how do I prove it if she isnt willing to let me try?

I would be concerned if I were her. You're not sure why you betrayed her - it might be because you weren't getting all your needs met. Hmmmmm.

You've got 3 kids and a wife depending on you. Better do some soul searching.

No--I think that really came out the wrong way. I cheated because I felt alone. I got my ego wtroked by someone who didnt matter to me. I took for granted my wife, family and most importantly my marriage. Believe me, I have soul searched. I have no excuse for what I have done, but believe me, I have tried to be an open book and learn to communicate which I have never been good at. I was a selfish jerk. I know that. Now all I can do is wait and see if time helps my problems. I love my wife and want to make this marriage work for me, my wife and my children.

Actually, her husband clearly told her what he wants, and that is for her to stop ignoring his needs for sexual fulfullment. He was very clear about that. And her excuse is that she "doesn't feel like it."

Well, ya know what? We do lots of things we don't "feel like" such as go to work every day and earn money, hold our tongue with our spouse when we feel like lambasting them, etc. But we put aside our feeling du jour and do what is necessary to show love and empathy to our spouse or do we follow our feelings even though we know it is destroying our marriage?

And yes, refusing to meet his needs will probably destroy her marriage. And maybe that is what she wants, I suspect it is. It may make her "feel good" in the short term, but she has to be prepared for the possibility that she will alienate her H when he falls out of love with her. She should also understand that refusing to meet his needs is a punishment that shows a tremendous lack of empathy that will likely lead to the end of her already very damaged marriage.

The bottom line is that if she wants to save her marriage, the way to go is to NOT follow her very damaged feelings, because she is not likely to get any such thing. And encouraging her on that path is nothing short of irresponsible.

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Homer, no BS ever rebounds so quickly, that does not mean she has to cut off SF and refuse to meet his needs. Meeting his needs is not "lying down and taking it." If she views SF with him that way, then she has no business being his wife.

The man stopped his affair and is doing his best to repair his marriage, her answer is an incredible lack of empathy to his needs that is certain to do nothing but damage the marriage when it is already wounded. Punishing her H will not repair the marriage nor will it heal her wounds.

It is certainly her prerogative to punish him and refuse to meet his needs, but it's also important for her to understand that her marriage is not likely to survive that treatment, especially when it was already hanging on by a thread.

Don't get me wrong, feelings are cute and nice, but they do have consequences.

drpeppertx, have you considered counseling with the Harleys before your marriage is completely destroyed? I suspect you may be right that she doesn't want the marriage, but perhaps Dr. Harley could help in sorting this out before you make any decisions. I do know that if she refuses to meet your needs, then you have every reason to believe she doesn't want the marriage and have to make a decision based on that knowledge.

But at least call a pro, Dr Harley, before you completely give up in frustration. He won't waste your time with a bunch of nonsense, he will assess your situation and give you some direction. He is worth every penny, IMO.

I was quoting directly from BL's entry regarding her husband's desire for her not to just go through the motions of having sex, but to have the intimate connection. She was sharing that her visions of what had happened were getting in the way of that happening. She shared how she was trying to handle it. She was asking others how they dealt with it. You are the one who immediately went to her refusing her husband sex. I don't see how that addressed her specific concern.

You view BL's refusal to have sex as that she just "doesn't feel like it". I think that trivializes the whole issue. This isn't about her having a bad day, being in a mood, pouting, etc. This is about dealing with trauma. Big difference. How can she help create feelings of intimacy, not just go through the motions? Your responses indicating "Just do it if you want to save your marriage" haven't worked. She says she tried that and felt dirty. How could that possibliy create feelings of intimacy?

I think that Dr. Harley has an excellent program. He addresses an issue that is one of the most difficult in marriages. He gives advice with clear directions. Many marriages survive infidelity that would have had no hope in the past. Even Dr. Harley notes, however, that his program is based on what he's viewed and handled with a "majority" of couples, not all couples.

There may be a greater underlying psychological issue here for BL that we're not aware of. BL may not even have conscious awareness of it. Applying MB principles in a blanket manner may not be appropriate to BL. Stating your viewpoint and understanding of applying MB's principles is fine. It's a large part of this forum. I think that it is irresponsible on your part to insist that these principles are appropriate for all couples (excluding those where substance abuse is a dynamic).

I have never been one to believe that all things work for all people. We're just too diverse. We learn things in different ways. Frankly, I find your approach to be condescending, punitive and rude. It would shut me right down. I grew up around that type of attitude and it created many wounds for me. I think one can be firm...can disagree...without being insensitive or derogatory. I wouldn't feel free to ask any questions about the program if I was struggling with an issue. That could close off a valuable resource for me. I might have been able to come to the same conclusion had I been given adequate time and support to process my thoughts and feelings.

I'm sure that others appreciate your approach, and that it works well for them. Many have said so.

I don't appreciate being called "irresponsible" if I disagree with an idea, or share a different viewpoint. Unless someone has been determined mentally incompetent, I respect the fact that we are all adults who are capable of thinking for ourselves.

heartmending, I am sorry you don't like being called "irresponsible" but I think that is an accurate depiction when you tell people what you think they want to hear in direct contradiction of tried and true Marriage Builders principles. When you encourage someone to follow their "feelings" when it is apparent to any thinking person that doing so is destroying her marriage. [did ya read her H's posts? hmmm] You say that MB "may not be appropriate for BL." There is no reason to believe any such thing, her situation is pretty standard and her feelings are very common. We sure have no reason to believe it wouldn't. The only thing different is that she chooses to use her feelings to punish her H for over a year after he ended the affair.

Encouraging her to continue in this way is extremely harmful and I suspect you are simply trying to tell her what she wants to hear, regardless of how damaging it is to her marriage. There is no other explanation that I can see. It might make you feel good to validate her, but it sure is not helpful.


And no one denies that his affair was "traumatic;" we have all been there, done that. Her situation is no different from any other. But refusing to meet her H's needs by punishing him is not the answer if she intends on staying in her marriage. Depriving him will not save her marriage and only shows an incredible lack of empathy. There is no reason for her NOT to try to apply MB principles other than her "feelings." Her "feelings" will go away, but the consequences of a ruined marriage will not.

You continually avoid this fact by validating her feelings rather than the consequence they inflict on her marriage. Her H is almost at the end of his rope after over a year of this, I can't blame him, and still you validate her. Amazing.

Frankly, I don't care if you find me "condescending, punitive, and rude." That is your issue that you will have to deal with yourself. You were all those things and much more in your post, so maybe you should practice what you preach.

I can't help feeling that there is more here than this husband would like to admit to. According to his wife, there are several affairs, and of course the 2 naked women in his hotel room who were not affairs.

Recovery started in August. I think it is early for his wife to desire him sexually again, especially if everything is not out in the open.

His "needs" are not being met again. Tough. His "needs" are what started the whole problem in the first place.

By the way, I wonder if he got tested for STD's. By my count, there are 4 women that he had inappropriate relations with. Being old-fashioned, I count 2 women in his hotel room as inappropriate.

I think if she is not interested in recovery, she should make that clear to him, so he can decide his options and move on if he so chooses. Her marriage is going to crumble anyway if she persists in punishing him. He's pretty convinced she's not interested in recovery and that is fine, she should just make it clear. I hope he does take my advice and call Steve Harley and let him assess the situation.

I am somewhat confused about the timeline here, though. I thought drpeppertx said the affair ended in 2004? Her signature says June 2005.

Melody - I think she is interested in recovery. I think they got back together without him coming clean about the extent of his betrayal.

Well, that is not good, but it doesn't address his issues, which are serious. If she really wants recovery, which is certainly not apparent to me or her own H, then she needs to start acting like it. And soon from the sounds of it.

Here is one of her earlier posts -

"Went through a rough patch about a year ago when I started a business and found out that H had the A during this time. Met OW in support group for past surgery and the friendship turned into a sexual relationship. During that time, was an issue at our home where he was physical with me and the police were called. Never saw that side of him. Started going to MC during that time to work on our M and the communication issues, through emails that I found, realized that he was having the A and discussing our MC with OW.

As I am sorting through this shock, there was another issue about 5 years ago. H was having an emotional A online with OW. I feel now that it would have become sexual if OW was closer. Same thing said then, "I was lonely". I was going to school for my teaching certificate and working 30+ hours, trying to balance it all.

Now, here we are again... also found out that he got drunk and had two women in his room in October at a conference. Says nothing happened but WHY would you have two women in your room.

I have heard what he is telling people and he is playing the victim. It is making me sick. Telling people that we had marital issues and that he is going to counseling but that I'm not willing to go. I told him to give me time. Time to sort through my feelings and thoughts. He feels that he either needs to move home and we need to start working on the marriage or that he needs to move on. MY GOD, I am just trying to get by day to day and remember to breathe."

I guess I still think that he isn't telling the whole story. I would love to hear the explanation of the two women in his hotel room.

Thought I would respond - he ended the sexual part of the affair in March but kept the emotional affair going up until the day before I discovered the affair, 6/7/2005. His last communication with her was the day before, 6/6.

As far as what caused the affair, SELFISHNESS! We had a thriving sex life, at least two to three times a week. I had started a company and had developed a successful business. He was miserable at his job and resented my success. He felt like he was on the back burner and lonely. His words "she stroked my ego"! So SF has not been an issue in our marriage. Like any man he would have it 5 times a day everyday.

I am not punishing him but have realized that I do not want to continue in this marriage. ML, I guess you did push me to decide.

As far as being committed, I have been committed since he walked back in the door. Through MC and IC I have been committed. He still can't answer the basic questions of why he did this but that he was selfish. His own words again.

So, here we are... I am not angry or resentful anymore. He is human. I don't want to be with a man who thought so little of me and our children for any reason. I want him to be happy and find someone that can truly meet all of his ENs. I am done!

Furthermore, I have spent 8 years in a marriage that I have put his needs first - sexual, emotional, financial. I was the wife, lover, fantasy, mother of the children, successful business woman - and it still wasn't enough. I used to give my girlfriends advice on keeping their husbands satisfied in the bedroom. I used to tell them to be his fantasy and he will never want another. I WAS WRONG!!

I have enabled and I admit that. I have put my own needs and feelings on the back burner to make sure he is happy and wonderful. What I have realized is that it didn't matter, if he isn't happy in his own skin then he will never be happy. I believe he is in denial of that. He says that his happiness is me and the kids. My point is that you have to be happy with yourself and be content with yourself before you can be truly happy with someone. His happiness should not depend on others.

Would he feel safe in telling the truth?

Of course! Our house is and has always been full of love. A place where I want nothing less than truth...

brokenlove, no one could blame you a bit if you decided to not save the marriage, that is certainly your prerogative. Some choose to cut their losses and move on. There is no shame in that. Better to be honest about it up front, so both can make informed decisions.

However, you should know that divorce is often more painful than going through recovery and it is very possible that you can have a great marriage with the proper amount of work. There are lots of folks here who had much worse situations than yours that have great marriages today.

Well--

Let me clarify for all of you who seem to care. First, I ended the physical relationship with the OW in January of '05. Talked to her a handful of times via e-mail until June when affair was found out. I then did what the books said and sent a new letter to OW asking not to be contacted again. I haven't spoken to her in ANY way since.

As far as the "two women" in my hotel room. Let me tell my side of things. A co-worker (and her husband) and I went to a conference. We spent the evening with other conference attendees at a Friday's bar which was in our Hotel. At the end of the evening, and on the last night of the trip, I told these two women that I had a fridge full of beer that they were welcome to. They came to my room and got the beer. The door was never closed and they were never naked. Nothing inappropriate happened. My co-worker's room was down the hall and she saw this. It was blown out of context. These "two women" werent in my room for more than a minute. Was this poor judgement? ABSOLUTELY! Was it an affair? Hardly.

The online thing that brokenlove talks about was 8 years ago. Some talking dirty, etc. Again, this was wrong. At the time, I had no idea what a big deal it was. I have learned from this. I want to recover. Obviously I am alone in that. She wants no part of it. So be it!

Oh and as far as my issues go, and I have many, I have been in IC since the week after DDAY. We have gone to counseling together three times. Counseling isnt important to her---her mind is made up. I would love to call the Harley's with HER but why waste the money doing it alone?