Hello Low Orbit.

Can you tell us a bit of why your wife does not want to visit the jazz club with you? Is it a trigger?

What I have found is that we use the POJA as a source of compromise and negotiation.

Have you ever heard of Marriage Builders <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> ?

"After years of experience helping couples avoid divorce, I have found the Policy of Joint Agreement to be essential in preserving marriage because it's a rule that guarantees marital adjustment. But as you have witnessed, there are many popular philosophies that conflict with my policy and lead married couples to lifestyles that create incompatibility, and ultimately divorce. Your girlfriend may have followed one of these philosophies of independence during her first marriage, and still doesn't realize that it's the philosophy, and not her husband, that led to divorce."

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3350_guide.html

Can you show how you have followed Guideline 2?
"Identify the problem from both perspectives."

Maybe we can help you brainstorm some resolutions that will give the win on the Joint Agreement. I really can't imagine an instance where an agreement can't be achieved when loving negotiation is employed, except for in the case of addictive behaviors as Dr. Harley identified.

quote:---------------------------------------------------
POJA will drive boredom and apathy in a marriage with emotionally fused couples because it doesn't seem to accommodate serious conflict.
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I am just wondering if difference/conflict is approached with 'good faith', a lot of creativity and imagination, and confidence that a resolution will be found (if not today, tomorrow), it will.

But then again, this is in theory, more often than not I am considered an optimist, and I have a very poor track record (consider myself a CA, did questionable PLAN A, in PLAN B for survival sake).

Ok, my and mimi...

You're gonna have to show me how this works in the real world...because it doesn't make a dang bit of sense otherwise.

Ok...so what would be the point of attempting to POJA in "bad faith". Seems like a waste of effort to me.

I'm with OGIRL with this in a way...

To me differentiation in in a GOOD MARRIAGE would mean that you would go to jazz concerts if you like them and your wife would go with you even though she doesn't like them. She would acknowledge her dislike. By the same token, you would go to religious concerts or whatever with her...

A fused marriage, seems to me, would be one in which she would acknowledge her dislike, would pretend to enjoy jazz concerts and then would just go along with you...

I'm missing the CONNECTION AND PASSION as you speak of your marriage. I'm missing the desire for both of you to work on a solution to your DIFFERENTNESS. My H and I are different in a lot of respects.. We are OPEN about our DIFFERENCES. The DIFFERENCES contribute to our PERSONAL GROWTH, getting to fully and transparently know a person who is different..

I ask you as I have asked you before, Low. Have you told her how problemmatic this is for you that she does not share in your life?

Although you deny being at risk for having another A, I would think you would be at risk for that... You are a saying that you are a man who would ENJOY going to a CONCERT all ALONE without being able to share that experience with a WOMAN...even parts of that experience?

I think that your wife is being selfish and insensitive and that you should tell how you feel about this....

I think I am the only one on this thread that has read the book other than LowOrbit. I do know what he is talking about.
You have to read the book to understand.

I am not posting anymore to this thread because I am wasting my time. I have not gotten one response.

Lifted:

I'm not ignoring you...

I just know more of what Low has been posting before about this...

Does the book talk about how to make a marriage more PASSIONATE?

Low has not mentioned anything about PASSION in his marriage?

He has focused on his need to engage in different activities than his wife does..

I think I just figured out lunamere's point...



My wife doesn't want to engage in any activity that puts here into "uncomfortable" situations. She avoids adventure like it's a disease. I cannot live like this.

She broke out of this mold for about two years after the affair (I thought things were going good). Unfortunately, my long and protracted withdrawal prevented me from fully enjoying that change in her.

Now that I'm 1000% committed to us, she's back to her old pre-A self. I don't want that kind of marriage anymore. Yes, I'm changing the rules.

POJA has not wotked because she refuses to POJA in "good faith". She let's me think we've come to an enthusiastic agreement, then consistently sabotages the actually agreement.

I have told her that I think this is what she is doing, but she refuses to acknowledge my feelings (another pre-A behavior) about it. I'm just being "childish".

She has not been willing to discuss why she won't go with me other than she simply "doesn't like it". It seems that there is a whole lot of life that she "doesn't like".

Do you think this means that I should not participate in things that she doesn't like?

Sorry LU...didn't mean to ignore. I'm in "rebuttal" mode and didn't see anything in your posts to disagree with.

I do have a questions for you though...what does "differentiation" look like in your case? I still struggle with exactly what this means. Schanrch gives a lot of illustrations, but I struggle to find myself in many of them.

My point too.All along you have talked about your W being the one either disinterested or not enthusiastic about these things you want to do/explore.I have read it more than once.I disagree that your W hasn't made you feel this way in the past.It has come across to me that you are saddened because she doesn't do things with you or approve.This is stuff I have read Low.Yes you may have blamed her and I too know that is wrong to blame other's for your choices such as not living what you might think is a more fulfilling life.I am an example of this concept that I think the book eludes to.Ihave always been very independent.Not having any siblings I was on my own a lot while growin gup.I need to be on my own and have a very high boredom threshold I guess you could say.I brought that to my marriage and although I loved doing things with my WH,I always enjoyed doing things on my own too and I also did not put too much thought into these things I did in regards to my WH because he rarely spoke about it being a problem for him.I can't think of many things I wanted to do that I didn't just go out and do because my WH never disapproved.You may have come to this realization now but it's not what I have expreienced reading your prior posts.

You stated that the behavior of emotionally fused married couples,according to the book's analysis,not having serious conflict can set up the conditon for having an A,as in your case.IMO it's a basic case of you didn't get what you wanted out of the marriage so you went looking elsewhere, in some other woman.I am not trying to guilt you Low.I am saying that by making that choice,you caused what I believe to more harm than if you just endured a long road of exploration and counseling and then ended the marriage after trying that way.Not by cheating.We had a discussion this board some time ago where it was posed,would you rather your S D you to solve problems or cheat and then possibly also go through a D? Well,it was almost unanimous.Of course it would be better to bypass all the A fallout since it is truly a revolting and painful experience.So is D but for those like me,we have had to endure both.I am glad you are trying to make your marriage better.I always hope for that in couples who are recovering.But you didn't really answer my Q's about what is holding you in it now? What positive things are going on for you?

What if "geat" isn't achievable with your W? What then? Is it right to want that? Is it realistic? My WH said similar things to me: "I am not going to stay in a mediocre(same word) marriage for the rest of my life". Said to me after the 3 month DDay mark.Don't you think one problem with marriage today is that we are looking for "perfection?" Soulamtes? MR/MRS.RIGHT? Isn't it a myth? Is this what drives so many to the courts seeking D because there must be that SOMEONE out there who is just a bit better than what I have at home? These are questions I see asked all the time.It is interesting to me.Not be sour but I just think it all caters to the enetitlement phase this country is in, to have it all,the best and forever.I just don't find that real life works that way.I like to think in less complicated terms.JMO.

Of course marriage can be and should be wonderful but there are so many factors I see that can enter in making it all the more difficult that you have to be very aware of your own weaknesses and boundaries in order to survive.In my case,after my WH's wonderful words to me about mediocrity and not knowing that we were even in "trouble" before he announced that he was cheating,it occurred to me that we never really know anyone,fully.What am I to tell my daughters as they grow up and want to spend time with a man and decide to marry? Watch out,he may lie and cheat and also may want to live a life that may not inlcude you? A marriage is what you make of it and obviously,in my case,my WH didn't do much of anything to make it what he wanted and didn't let me in on his secret of what he needed.Instead he withdrew.I was happy having our family and what I felt was a happy marriage.How grossly wrong I was but that was my life.My WH lead a different one inside.


O

Yes it does. Creating the passion hinges on becoming differentiated. The "passion" is, in fact, a controlled channeling of the conflict and pressure this process creates.

He talks about eyes open SF. He talks about hugging until relaxed. Why do you think so many couples struggle with this? It's because they avoid the "uncomfortableness" of that level of intimacy. Schnarch proposes that we DRIVE our relationship into that area of being uncomfortable...to CREATE that intimacy...and the associated passion.

Here is the answer...the marriage is "good". It is "comfortable". Nothing really bad.

That's the problem. Why should we settle for that?

It's the knowledge and the hope that it can be GREAT that keeps me in it.

If I ever get to the point where I lose that hope or become convinced that it isn't possible...then I will leave.

I almost believe I'd rather be divorced than living the good marriage of the living dead.

What do I tell my daughters about marriage? I tell them it can be wonderful...and to never settle for just good. I tell them that people can change and that change is a fact of life and relationships. I tell them that learning to deal with that change with integrity is of utmost importance.

Low

LowOrbit,


I haven't read the book but I really don't have a problem with what you've written above. In fact, I think the POJA actually covers most of it. POJA isn't supposed to be about Sacrificing your personal integrity to accomodate an unwilling spouse in fact, it's quite the opposite! Radical Honesty and and POJA are supposed to be the tools you can use in order to become your own Best Advocate instead of waiting around for your spouse to 'guess' what you want or abandoning your partnership to seek your own goals because it's too much trouble to negotiate.

The problem that I see is that you seem to be in a situation in which POJA is a shackle around your ankle instead of a tool for you to get more of what you want in your marriage in a way that also includes your partner's feelings. Let me say this - it's just as wrong for your wife to 'win' at your expense by denying you something you want without offering you 'just compensation (you get to define what just compensation looks like) as it is for you to just unilaterally decide to make your own decisions at her expense. That's not working together as partners and, frankly, I don't think engaging in either behavior has anything to do with integrity. Mostly, both strategies are conflict avoidance.


The first step is absolute radical honesty.

Don't just tell your wife what you want, tell your wife how you feel.

Honey, this situation about me not being able to go to jazz concerts when I really enjoy jazz is becoming unbearable for me. I feel resentful and I'm getting very angry about not being able to enjoy something that is important to me.

What I'd like to do is find some way that my attending these concerts would be acceptable to you? Can you forsee any circumstances under which my attendance would be acceptable to you?

<let's assume she says "There's NO WAY I'd ever let you go to a jazz concert!">

I understand your position. I am becoming very angry and resentful about this topic and that is extremely harmful to our marriage. I think maybe we should talk about some things that would help me feel better about NOT attending jazz concerts. Here are some things that would help me feel better about not attending <your list of just compensation>.

<Let's assume she rejects those ideas.>

What would you suggest then? I can tell you that my resentment and my anger is going to continue to build. If you'd like some time to think about this issue, then perhaps we can talk about it tomorrow evening. But, we need to do something quickly because this situation can't continue for much longer.



Perhaps you might need to go to a counselor to referee your talks. The point is that you don't let the subject drop for long and you keep expressing your feelings (resentment, anger, disappointment) in a way that is not ATTACKING her or an angry outburst. Also, it requires you to think of a suitable substutite (or substitutes) for going to jazz concerts. If your position is that you absolutely will not ever be happy unless she acceeds then you're not going into negotiations in the right spirit!

I think the important part of this conversation is the Radical Honesty that focuses on how you feel, how intolerable the situation is for you, how you are building resentment and ANGER about the situation. Too often, I think people try to hide behind justification and 'reasons' instead of directly stating the feelings behind what's happening. It's awfully hard to convince someone that jazz is good but it's very easy to be honest and tell someone that you are resentful and angry. Most people (I think) understand the urgency behind taking care of those situations versus the urgency behind listening to a concert, if you know what I mean.

If this situation is important enough for you to just say I'm going to do what I need to do. Then I think the terms with which I described it are pretty mild. It's imperative that you communicate directly the importance of the situation - and do it in a way that's about you and that doesn't go into character assasination ("You never want to do anything. You don't care." etc.)

I can't think of a single time that I sat my H down and said "I"m becoming very, VERY ANGRY and it's really a problem!" that we didn't come to some sort of agreement. I may not have gotten what I originally asked for, but we found some way to diffuse my anger. (Then again, maybe I'm less fun to live with when I'm angry than you are. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> )

Does that help?


So, what stops her from being enthusiastic if you go without her?

Mys

It isn't a love buster of Independent Behavior if you go places seperately provided you both agreed (enthusiastically) about going solo. Sometimes that's the best solution. It's Independent Behavior when you make unilateral decisions.

Mys

Hello again, Low,

Well this gives a lot more meat to my understanding of your situation.


Ok, this is more good description; did you call her on her Disrespectful Judgement behavior when she did this?


No, I don't. I would tell her the same thing I advise all to do in a Marital negotiation. Let her know that you want to be happy and happily married to her.

In my marriage following the Entire Marriage Builders Program is THE Deal-Breaker. She, or in my case, he either gets on board or we can D. It is the one thing I will not compromise on because I want us to be happily married and fulfilled. In a loving way you need to let her know this, and let her know that this is how you plan to safeguard her and your marriage; because you love her.

And that you feel pretty certain that if you don't follow this tried and true strategy, your marriage may not survive. Is that what she wants, and is she prepared for that? I have a feeling you will find that she has not dealt successfully with her anger over your affair. I think that she is using this behavior to punish you. A marriage where one partner punishes the other is an unhappy marriage for both. But since you are the one that acted out the worst-case scenario outside the marriage, you do need to shoulder the responsibility of helping her to deal with and face her anger, if you conclude that is the reason for this behavior. If you reach an alternative conclusion about the reason for her behavior, such as she just doesn't want to take a chance on discomfort, I hope you will continue to explore with us why such things result in such a high level of discomfort when it would fill 1) your emotional need for companionship, and 2) some of your weekly recreational companionship requirement.

I will not comment on the book, since I haven't read it, but I am making an assumption for the time being, that this part of the book does not address issues in my marriage. Our major malfunction was too much independant behavior on both sides. Maybe that's why a smell danger in not finding a happy resolution for your need for fun and excitement in recreational activities.

Take care.

Low,

One thing I have always been aware of is I tend to operate on a different wavelength than other's in some areas.An example is: I personally do not think of disaster as a way to change,in ME.I know that this works for other's and I have seen it happen.The patient that finally gives up smoking and high fat foods after having his arteries rearranged to get oxygen to his heart and he has this 16 inch scar down his chest to show for it.The car accident that happens to the spouse that makes the other spouse oh so aware of the limits in life and adjusts his/her gratitude.It never will take me a moment like those to appreciate what I have and the blessings I have despite what I have been through.I am aware as much as I can be and will not need a "wake up call" to get my priorities and life in order.It just always has been.Some people don't understand me.I would rather nurture areas of my life than risk them and see what happens.



Yes,I completely agree with this.This is how I live.And why I chose to end my marriage under great duress because I knew that my beliefs,values,integrity and dignity,et al,were at my core being and no one,not even my WH, was going to make me change those beliefes/values.Up until the A,there was not any concrete behavior problem that I saw we couldn't address or resolve.I like to think that of all marriages.I like to think that we don't have to be so complicated in this life. This is who I am.My WH always knew that and yet he decided that wasn't what he wanted in his life anymore,and many other things.Your W might be struggling with the idea of you changing and it scares her.Who knows.We don't hear her side at all.


Well we can debate that they do this consciously or subconsciously but yes,it is still a choice but I don't see anyone suggest here that they choose to cheat *TO GROW and I know at least my WH knew that this was going to be a major blowout for all of us but he didn't care,his needs and feelings were priority.Thus far I feel he has not grown at all but has regressed.We can *choose to grow and learn after a traumatic event.I do agree with that.

I'm not challenging you to prove how all this wokrs,I am living it.The difference I see is that you are here now and I was already there long ago.This is why I mentioned certain examples.There are real easy ones that can be resolved quickly and others than may never be resolved and a marriage ends.But if you are always true to yourself and other's around you then there will never be any secrets or newfound characteristics that will come out one day and surprise your loved ones.At least that is how I see it.I am not any different than I was years and years ago.I may have grown a bit morespiritually and mentally but the core value system is intact and is the same and always will be no matter who comes into my life.There will never be any question,it is all genuine.

It would be so much better to "debate" in person.The internet is so impersonal and the wrong ideas can come across.I hope you see that is all I am doing Low.I am not trying to offend you.

O

LO

A word of support for your approach here. By gum, I think you've got it!

For the benefit of those who haven't read the book, perhaps I could help to demystify it. I've read the book three times. I've recommended it again and again. I think the concepts are probably quite scary in the context of MB, but then I think the concepts of MB are often misused to justify inaction and fear of change.

POJA assumes that both partners are willing to embrace change and difference, and will co-operate with the other unless it compromises their core integrity. If one partner consistently abuses POJA by vetoing something, not because it violates their integrity, but because it makes them feel uncomfortable (and they interpret this feeling to mean that it's a personal breach), then POJA becomes a roadblock rather than an aid to growth.

Schnarch starts from the premise that there are areas in most marriages where these 'blocks' get built up, and that the blocking partner must be made to experience the discomfort of their non-choice before they will contemplate change.

There's a strange correlation between Harley's Independent Behaviour and Schnarch's 'crucible'. IB is about doing things without adequate reference to the other partner. This can mean the doing of something, or the unreasonable refusal to do something. (eg, co-operate with the spouse in a wholly reasonable request). Although this gets called POJA, it's actually just disguised IB.

I believe that Harley's method makes sense as long as both parties are wholeheartedly committed to it. If one partner is lukewarm, or uses the methods against the other spouse, then the methods break down.

Schnarch's approach is about what you do when you get to that impasse. In effect, it's filling in some of the holes in MB.

However, I can see why a description of the Schnarch book would scare the bejeebus out of many.

TA

Myschae,

I really like the way you laid out the approach with examples. I hope Low Orbit can utilize some of your suggestions to help him have a more fulfilling marriage.

I did understand that he would be happiest if his wife would accompany him to the concert. As a BS myself, I would be very uneasy about my husband attending without me, we fully prescribe to Dr. Harley's suggestion to have Recreational Companionship together.

I think this is a really good thread because it is addressing specific MB techniques and behaviors, and that is due to your sharing such good information. I hope it helps Low Orbit.

Take care.

Good description TA.I especially like this part:


Low wants to see jazz.His wife doesn't want him to go and doesn't like it.On the surface,I don't understand this reasoning.Why doesn't his wife just say,"Go ahead honey,have a great time I'll see you when you get home".Is it that she thinks he will find some other woman and meet up? Or was she like this always? Why isn't she being more accomodating(compromise)? What is holding her back? Seeing a jazz concert,IMO,doesn't hurt someone's integrity.It's not a core belief or value.I think there is more to why she refuses.If there isn't a justficable cause then this is one of those exapmles where I think life is made to be complicated and it doesn't have to be.For selfish reasons yet unkown.

O

Check. She won't acknowledge my feelings as valid.



Sounds like a great idea...you think I could get much out of it going by myself? She will NOT go. She'd have to acknowledge that we had a problem first, wouldn't she? I have been pretty persistent...which is why I've got a pretty good list of "excuses" why she wouldn't hold up her part of POJA.


This is not about jazz concerts...I just chose that as an example. This is about engaging in adventurous behavior of any sort...together. As such, ANY identified substitute would offer the same problem.

I see myself as an adventurous person. I enjoy new experiences and expanding my horizons. Therefore, if I don't live my life in accordance with the kind of person I want to be, I am not living with integrity.

Low