Yes I do think you would get a lot out of going by yourself, and take a tape recorder with you.

Or call the Harleys and record the call. For about $20 you can get a phone recording device at radio shack.

Share the tapes with her.

Let me make sure I understand what you're saying. You're telling me that if you sat down and told your wife:

I am unhappy. I am angry and I am resentful and it's dangerous to our marriage.

She'd say.....?

"No you're not."


Well, I guess it depends on what the problem that you're referring to is. If what you're referring to as the 'problem' is that she's not adventurous - then she might never acknowledge that is a problem simply because she doesn't agree. If the problem you're referring to is that you resent not being able to do things you enjoy then I'm really curious about what she tells you about your feelings. You mentioned that she's used the phrase "childish" - was that in reference to you telling her you are ANGRY? Or was that in reference to you telling her you "want more adventure."

Can you see a difference in scale?

What your original plan seemed to want to do was escalate the situation into conflict. To draw attention to the discomfort you are feeling in the marriage by doing what you feel you need to do in order to be true to yourself. I actually happen to think there's a place for that type of strategy. But only AFTER you've communicated in explicitly clear terms that the situation is so utterly horrible, so inescapably intolerable, so spiritually and emotionally CRUSHING to you and giving her EVERY opportunity to negotiate in good faith with that information that you simply have to draw a boundary. And, in that case, I still advocate giving the spouse plenty of information about what you're doing and a way to engage in negotiation. Honey, this situation is simply so utterly miserable for me that I am starting to loose my love for you. Therefore, I intend to <go to jazz concerts> even though I understand you object. I am very willing to negotiate with you about solutions that we can both be enthusiastic about but those solutions MUST be a change from what we've been doing. I can no longer justify loosing my love for you at this rate by accomodating your wish in this matter.

It's just important for you to preserve your love for your spouse by not building resentment as it is for you to not love bust.

Maybe you've communicated your angst in those terms - maybe you've told her that you feel as though your marriage is crushing your spirit and eliminating your sense of personal integrity and her response is to tell you to grow up and stop behaving like a child. Of course, in that situation, I suppose my reaction might be a bit more permanent than just going off by myself to see a concert or two. (I'm not talking about divorce, by the way, I'm talking about intensive counseling.) It's a bit of a larger problem.

My whole point is that there are other ways to escalate the level of 'conflict' and priority about a situation than choosing Independent behavior. It might not be a better way - but it's one suggestion.

I suppose I have a hard time believing a spouse ignoring that type of plain spoken, direct, message. But then, lots of things surprise me. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />


Well, going by yourself seems to be your current plan. It seems not to help your goal to go together. Is your hope that if you go she'll feel compelled or enticed to join you?

Mys

You're right...we should be open about new self-discoveries with our spouse...even if those will be tough to share. That's what I'm trying to do now...I'm trying to make sure she is aware of the kind of person I aspire to be. I'm trying to ensure that she knows that I want her to be a part of that. It is HER choice to participate in my life with me, as it is mine to participate in hers.



I hear you OG...and I suppose that's why we seem to disagree. I read this statement you've made about yourself and it strikes me as so sad, yet you find comfort in knowing this about yourself. I, on the other hand, am so glad that I am NOT the same person I was. I am glad that my core value system has changed. Heck, my core MBTI personality type is different than ten years ago. I HOPE I will still yet change to become more than I am. There are times when we are all not genuine. However, just because I am not the same man she married years ago doesn't mean that I was not genuine then or now. The one difference is that I have become aware of how important it is to live authentically.

Low

Do you think your wife would think it was a problem if you said you were very unhappy with your marriage?

I think part of the problem is that people start talking about issues that don't seem 'that bad' or 'that important' in marriage instead of the really important thing which often is how the partners each feel about the marraige.

I often wonder if more people would acknowledge the problems if the argument went more like this:


I'm very unhappy with our marriage and I'd like to go to counseling.

"Why are you unhappy."

"There are lots of reasons but I don't feel safe trying to work on them by ourselves. I won't discuss them now. I will say that if we don't do something, my unhappiness is likely to grow. I'm loosing my love for you. Can we go to counseling?

".... " (No? Yes? Maybe?)


And, then I wonder what I'd recommend if the answer is "No!" <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />
Mys

Don't be sad for me Low.I am not saying I haven't changed one little bit in all these years.I am referrng to my core values and beliefs.I am not saying I wouldn't try scuba diving one day or stuff like that.I mean that what you see is what you get.I am not a player,nor dishonest nor anything but genuine.If you can trust in me today you can years from now.I am loyal to all my friends and they know they can rely on me.That is what I mean.No surprises.I won't up and murder someone someday out of nowhere for some inexplicable reason,etc.

But for you,I am glad you see an opportunity to change and it brings you comfort and maybe even happiness.That is wonderful.I witnessed that in my Mom going through her alcoholism.It was such a defining moment in my life and hers.She had another chance at a happy life and one that was honorable and full of integrity and peaceful.

Make no mistake,I am not done being and living a life closer to God and I am definitely not perfect.My life is a journey I am enjoying but it follows a different path than other's in many ways.

I think we are in agreement about being true to ourselves. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

O

You got it. But it doesn't stop there. She proceeds to tell me how I really do feel.



And this is where I am.



My hope is that she will realize that she's abandoning an opportunity to engage in life with me. I hope this is important to her. I believe she'll never make this choice without being pushed. It's my intent to push, but to be supportive and communicative as she works through it...I want her to work through it.

I don't mean to nag. I won't ask you again if you tell me you said this, but reassure me that you used terms on the same scale that I did. In my experience, people tend to soft pedal the severity of the situation quite a bit. So instead of saying so utterly horrible, so inescapably intolerable, so spiritually and emotionally CRUSHING to you it comes out more like "kinda unhappy and I don't really like....". Which, doesn't tend to have the same effect.


Fair enough.

Do you have a plan for what to do if, instead of realizing that she's missing an opportunity, she simply builds resentment towards you for your activities and goes into withdrawal? Then you're just substituting her contentment for anger/resentment. What would be a reasonable backup plan if that happens?

Sadly, it doesn't sound as though you have strong enough communication skills as marital partners (I don't mean you individually, but it's clear that the two of you aren't having good negotiation discussions if either one of you is telling the other how he feels) to navigate the shoals very well.

One good way to evaluate a plan is to know what you're going to do if things DON'T turn out the way you intend. Maybe you should give that a little thought if you haven't all ready. (You seem pretty together, so perhaps you have.)

I'll give you my $.02. I don't think the biggest problem in your marriage is likely to be her lack of adventure. I think it's your lack of ability to communicate effectively and negotiate as partners. I'm not saying that you following your personal integrity isn't important, but I strongly suspect that your problem with recreational companionship isn't going to be fixed by this strategy.

Either you two can work as partners or you can't. Ya know what I mean?

Mys

By the way, if you don't mind sharing, how do you really feel (according to your wife)?

I'm can't help but be curious.

Mys

Of course she would...if she chose to take me at my word.

Here's how the convo has gone:

"I'm very unhappy with our marriage and I'd like to go to counseling."

"You have no reason to be unhappy. You have everything a man could want. A wife and family that loves you. You need to accept that life slows down as you get older. You're not a child anymore, you know."

"I feel like you don't repect how I feel..."

"Of course I respect you. I'm your wife and I love you..."

Blah, blah, etc.

Yes, Mys, there are people who choose to deny what you are telling them to their face because it doesn't fit the model of life they are building for themselves.

She did the same thing before my affair. I told her many, many time how unhappy I was and how things needed to change. Yet she claimed it was all "out of the blue"...that she never knew there was a problem. To this day, she still can't believe I was unhappy.

Low

Oh, I've given a lot of thought to this...and it scares me. But the whole point of taking this step is to break out of this comfort cycle.

She will be faced with re-evaluation. I will be there while she does this. If she chooses withdrawal I will call her on it. If she further refuse engagement, I see no other option than to end the marriage. I pray it never comes to that.

Low

Unfortunately, your wife may lose you, IMHO...

Don't back down though. Keep being honest with her and tell her how you are feeling..

If your conversations with her actually go as you say, IMHO, she is devaluing you and discounting you. That is hurtful....

I hate it when I feel someone is doing that to me. It is disrespectful to you as a person.

I know now that I used to do that to my FWH. I tried to make him into who "I wanted him to be". He found someone, the FOW, who didn't try to change him.

Now, I'm really accepting him and trying to get to know him. I believe that you deserve this from your wife. I wish she could hear you. I wish my FWH had told me the way he was feeling. I'm thinking that I would have listened. Instead, he went off and got involved intimately with someone else who valued him and listened to him.

This is not to say what my H did was right. I am not justifying his A. However, I certainly left the door open for this to occur.

I've probably said all of this to you before..sorry if I'm repeating this...

BTW, I don't like jazz at all but my H does...I've tried and tried to get into it but I can't....FOW "pretended" that she liked jazz... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Actually, LO, in classic MB terms, your wife is coming up with a bunch of LBs.

To discount or minimise what your partner is telling you, or to decide you know what they're thinking or what's best for them - these things are just as disrespectful as shouting insults.

She's perhaps not at all aware of this?

Even if she's never read any of the MB books, any competent marriage therapist ought to be able to gently point out to her that these behaviours are disrespectful.

TA

Has she read HIS NEEDS HER NEEDS?

She seems to feel so entitled and selfish. That is not acceptable...

I'm not sure LO's wife is actually exhibiting entitlement or selfishness. It sounds much more as if she's overfunctioning, which is normally a sign of anxiety. An overfunctioning person tends to take charge and decide what's right for everyone; the input channels get blocked.

She may have an overfunctioning pattern which she falls back into automatically when her anxiety levels are high.

You may be right, TA.

I definitely am an OVERFUNCTIONER....

But it comes across as entitlement...

I think this is very true. I don't think she realizes it's happening. The kicker is she refuses to hear me when I try to communicate that it is.

I know she can be great. I've seen it. She was interested in HNHN and emotional needs. But I fear all of that may have been motivated out of panic...that the shock of the affair rocked he hard enough to push her into her crucible.

She is not much of a reader. She says she has trouble understanding why I'm so interested in books like HNHN and "Passionate Marriage". She has told me that she thinks they cause me to have "unreal" expectations of marriage and that real marriages don't work the way "those books" say.

My own theory is that she is afraid. Paralyzed. She had to face the chance of losing our marriage once and she wants to avoid going there again. That's why the intentional creation of conflict and pressure is to be avoided/ignored at all costs.

I want to prove to her that we can go there without falling apart. That we can come out of it closer than we went in. To borrow Schnarch's example...like two brothers in a foxhole. The war drives us together.

Yes, I do know this.. my mother does this to me all the time. Isn't it just absolutely infuriating?


You know, this is a bit of a problem.

So, this experiement is a bit of a test followed by an exit strategy.

Why not skip the experiement (test) and just cut to the chase? You all ready probably know that the real, core problem isn't that she's not adventurous, it's that she's (for whatever reason) stuck in her version of who you are and what you want and chooses to deal with that 'construct' of you rather than the flesh and blood man that you are.

The problem with this strategy that I see is that it just obscures the real problem in your marraige. Your feelings, wants, and desires are dismissed and there is no way for you to negotiate for what you want. Your Taker is P1SSED!! And, why wouldn't he be? He's been chained up for a long time. The poor thing can't even get a good hearing.

Rather than sticking more pieces that don't fit in this puzzle onto the table, what would you think of getting at this head on and tell her:

I'm simply so unhappy (whether I should be or not) that I'm contemplating divorce. If things can't change. If I can't be heard. If you can't believe that I feel the way I'm telling you, then I simply see absolutely no future for us together as a married couple. I refuse to be in a partnership with someone who will not hear how I feel and talk about the reality of MY EMOTIONS as I EXPRESS them.

Then, suggest counseling.

That's some pretty radical honesty, wouldn't you agree?

Let yourself off the hook for this 'test' and let her off the hook, too. If you directly tell her that you're miserable and she doesn't get THAT signal, what are the realistic chances that she'll get something subtle like you doing things she doesn't like in order to be true to yourself? That's like a death of a thousand cuts for both of you. Ick.

You don't sound as though you're going to be satisfied doing your own thing unless she realizes what you're doing and why at some point. My suggestion would be to skip that stage - it's just going to muddy the water - and fix what's REALLY wrong.

Then again, I tend to be pretty direct. I don't have much patience....

Did you go to counseling after your affair?

Mys

Is it possible that she doesn't feel heard, either? You may think because she is openly critical of you, she feels safer than you do sharing her feelings and her vision of marriage, but I doubt that she does. I suspect it's easier to tell you that you have everything you need to be happy than it is to say that knowing you see her as an unadventurous stick-in-the-mud who's holding you back from a full life makes her feel so ashamed that she's practically paralyzed.

I wonder what would happen if,when she says, "You have no reason to be unhappy. You have everything a man could want. A wife and family that loves you", you responded by saying, "It sounds as though you think I'm ungrateful. I can see how that would be hurtful. Tell me more about that-I want to know how this looks to you." I wonder what would happen if, when she says, "You need to accept that life slows down as you get older. You're not a child anymore, you know", you said, "I know, I'm not, and that's what worries me. How do you feel about getting older, sweetheart? Do you ever wish you could turn back the clock?" That would be one way of getting out of your comfort zone and acting with integrity, and would be something you could do along with going out to listen to jazz on your own.

Actually, it's not really a test. It's a strategy to get her out of the trench. It is not an exit strategy as that is not the desired outcome...but it is a potential outcome.

It is not really an experiment, as there are two living, breathing human aboard this rocket. We will choose to live...or we will die.

We cannot afford to allow our orbit to slowly decay into apathy and "comfort".

Telling her doesn't work. Words can always be re-interpreted or denied to fit the model.

But when faced with the reality that I am choosing to live authentically...with or without her...then she can no longer rationalize the words.

I hope it can get us to a place where all the things you are suggesting can actually happen. But she has to come out of her bunker first.

Yes. It was horrible. We had a lousy counselor that made my wife feel "beat up on". I think that's why she has such an aversion.