Peachy-
The more I think about it, the more I think you're exactly
right- OW must be either really desperate or really mad
(or both !)
Seems like after finding out WH is not divorced, definitely
has "issues", and is not the "wealthy businessman" she had expected, she would want nothing to do with him, especially
if she really was the "strong, independent, self-supporting,
good and innocent" person she claims to be !
(and after only knowing WH for 3 months at most !)

Seems like her only reason to call me might have been to
confirm her suspicions that WH was still involved with me
because she considered that "cheating" on HER.
I think she definitely has tried to "convince" me of why I wouldn't want to take WH back, and has tried to find out what I planned to do. I think much of what she told me must have also been purely for the purpose of "rubbing" in some of the more hurtful details so that I really wouldn't want him back ? (and I bet you are right about the pregnancy,
if he even existed- might have been a "push" on WH to get
rid of wife !)

I hope Jane will not go any further with this information
as getting WH's parents/family involved or her having any more contact with OW could get really messy !

I think your idea to use this as a weapon back at OW is great- because WH will be really mad she has gotten XGF
involved. Hopefully it will be enough to kill any desire he might have to get back with OW and will turn him back towards home !

Hopefully the rest of the weekend will be calm- I'm sure worn out from all this !
Slammed

R U letting the WS know of OW's contacts with you and his daughter's mother? Also, I would document it and file a report with the police. This is just the ingredients for a start of an RO. The OW is getting desparate and her attempts to threaten him back to her lair is getting more desparate by the day. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

Also let the Xws know if he is really over this OW, he'd better make sure his whereabouts c/b confrimed 24/7. This means no staying anywhere by himself. Not even a trip to the store or gas station.

L.

I don't think OW is harrassing anyone. I believe she is doing her detective work and finding out WH isn't all he portrayed himself to be.

I think she has kicked him to the curb.

Lady

Any 'detective' work done by an OP is harrassment. Why? Because the OP has already invaded the family privacy. They are let in by the WS (it was an insider's job) and now the OP thinks they are 'entitled' to be in the know.

The fine legal line between legal harassment and emotional harassment is crossed when the BS does not feel safe. Best to report it to the police to begin history. One thing the police told me is domestic violence issues are hard since most times, the family does NOT want to report it. So let the police determine how much is too little. At the very least let the OP be on record in your town as harassing your family. I started that with the one I dealt with. From that point on it was just a matter of picking up the phone to report future incidents.

L.

Slammed,

OW just never stop, it's almost comical. I totally agree with peachy that OW plan B'ed your H. And she wants to collect as much info as possible by calling you and H's XGF.

So your H had his XGF pregnant, left her and their daughters, married to you but during the marriage kept having the porn problems, then cheated on you, got his new GF pregnant again, and potentially "cheated" on his new GF as well. Your H really has to come to a realization that he cannot continue on doing this! But you are the only one he has ever been married to, and you two have been together for a long time, so if he tries, he could stay in a R. It seems he does not want any heavy responsibility in R. When things start to get too serious or heavy (such as having kids?), your H probably started looking elsewhere.

Your H's not coming home and having decided to rent his own place is good, I think. At least he has some "shame". Since he is the one who wanted a D ASAP, and since he is the one who had an A and got kicked out, maybe he was too embarassed to come home. My stbxh had no shame, instead - soon as he found out he was loosing his job, he used his own son as an excuse to stay home with me (rent free), and soon as he got an offer, he was going to move out. He has no pride or honor as a man!

Besides, if he comes home now, you will keep wondering if he is just "using" you while trying to find another woman. Now that it appears his A is over and he is not living with OW anymore, if you two can start going to MC, he may over time want to come home truly, and not because of the convenience.

I hope you are having a calm weekend.

Milk

Good post by milkshake. Pay heed to her post.

JMHO,
L.

Well, no strange calls today and I now have Caller Id on my
phone, so won't be taking any calls from the OW.

I half hoped WH would ask me to do something today, but didn't plan on it- just went ahead with my normal schedule.
I did try to call him in the afternoon- I'm worried about
him getting too lonely or depressed, for fear it'll lead
him to get in contact with OW or someone else. Didn't get him and didn't leave a message either, but sure did
wonder what he was doing, if with OW, etc. !!
He called later- said he had been over working at the house
he is renovating and would call me later. (same wonder ??)
Called me back about 2 hours later and said "maybe we could get together and do something tomorrow ?" I said I could probably do that. Then he said tonight he was going out with some guys. I could just feel my anxiety rising-
wondering if he was really getting together with OW,
wondering if he had already "hooked up" with someone new ?
No way of knowing, and trying not to let myself get dragged
into the constant worrying and figuring out which I had
gotten pretty good at avoiding. I guess with my now
knowing all the details about the A and OW, and them
supposedly having broken up, I am getting my hopes up too
much and trying to move too quickly towards reconciliation.
Isn't it strange how quickly things can change- for the
better or worse ?

Decided to tell him that the OW had called his XGF, figuring
that would make him really angry with OW, so told him this
afternoon and was really surprised and disappointed when he
acted very calm about it and said "he already knew". Said
OW told him that she had called-
I don't quite "get" it that he was mad at me for talking to
OW when she was the one who initiated it, but doesn't seem
upset with OW for calling his XGF and letting her and his
daughter know he had A !!!??? Don't know if he just didn't
want to let on that he didn't know, or if he was trying to
be defensive of OW- either way doesn't make me feel too
good or that he is really done with OW.

Even though he mentioned doing something tomorrow, I am
feeling really down tonight. It's been a terrible "roller
coaster ride" this past week, and a bit like an episode
of a soap opera starring "ME". <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
I don't want to let my guard down too much or get hopes up
too much, and it's hard to balance that with also wanting to
play my "cards right" while I might have a chance right now.
I know there's a "fine line" there too, as can't push too
much or he will be really turned off. I guess trying to be
a supportive friend, having fun together, and keeping things
low pressure are my best bet ?? (kind of like Plan A stuff?)

Guess I"ll just watch a movie, get a bath, and try to get
some extra sleep tonight-
Slammed

Huge revelation here!

It takes TIME for OW to become the villain...as of now, you're somewhat still the villain ok?

YOur WH will find out in time how desperate she is...how out of control she is.

Now is time to show the DISTINCT DIFFERENCE between you and OP.

She is freaking out thinking that he's cheating...c'mon. YOu already got the 411 on that!

Plus you need to spin this better...YOU become the hurt victim...Make the OW out to be the scum sucking vampire she is...

Ex: If WH and you do something...you can do that...and at some point say you need to lay down and relax after doing whatever activity you do. And I'd say when I lay down.."Honey I am sorry if I am so tired. I didn't get much sleep the last few days. I have been SOOOO UPSET since SHE CALLED ME...and I am MORE THAN EMBARASSED she thought she had the right to call Jane about your daughter. Who is she to ask who I am or who Jane is?

I want peace in our home. Love and peace. This has been so much for me to endure...how dare she put me through this! And tear up when you say it.

Turn her into the villain.

Now is optimum time to do it! Turn the tides...PLAY OW FOR A FOOL...AND USE THEIR FOGGY WEAPONS AGAINST THEM!

IT'S MENTAL JU JITSU BABY!

I did this to FV many times...example...

A few weeks ago, my son came home and said that "mommy. FV said something BAD ABOUT YOU...she said that you have a mouth like a sailor!"

Well that's about as far as fetched as anything...However I have swore at FV in years past... calling her deserved names I may say...

My xh fully well knows I NEVER SWEAR much...and NEVER IN FRONT OF MY SON.

Once again, opportunity to turn OW against my xWH...I call my xh...after son goes to zzzz at night. I am teary. I say "Darth, I am so upset. He asks if I am alright. I say that I am now after a good cry. I tell him what my son said...and said that my son asked me why do sailors talk bad? I cried my eyes out. I told him how my son said that "mommy you don't say bad words...you never do. " and then I told him how FV played one rap song with my son in car over and over and my son said it had bad words in it and that my son KNEW bad words from that song.

His next words...I WILL DEAL WITH HER. I am sorry for this. YOu will not have to worry about this again. I know you don't swear.

Oh....it was a fun night in that home let me say! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

Slammed, I really believe OW is done with your H. If you go back and read the conversations with her. She started seeing his lies, then when she called you to confirm things about him, he got mad. She then kicked him out when she found out about all his deceptions. I think it is a good thing she called you. Well needed. If she calls again I would tell her please don't call again. But I don't think she really was meaning to cause you harm. In fact I think she feels really bad she got involved with him, and he led her on with a bunch of lies, so not totally her fault. I'm not trying to stick up for her...I think it's good she called you to find out answers, she wasn't trying to hurt you.

I think he is quite angry and embarrassed that all his lies were exposed by you and OW!!! So he isn't talking much about it now.

All of a sudden he is being very nice and wants to go out!!
I think he is done with OW, but the mere fact that in a few days he is back to you is odd. The first night wanting to spend the night!! OW warned you he would probably do that also, not that she means anything. I don't think she would have gone out with him knowing he was a total liar. He came in as a charmer, and charm is deceitful, and he went out on his rearend. I would truly guard your heart, not from OW, but WH.

Lady

I gently disagree with sheep...

maybe it is from my dealings with OWomen in general. Heck, my xh has had PLENTY!

And I have listened to their crap...and I can read between their lines.

I don't think your WH is done yet. I think she kicked him to curb and did plan B...and now she's investigating to see whether or not to take him back.

Meanwhile, she planted the bomb about the pregnancy...and the painting.

She is trying to create destruction. It was not for good her calls.

WHY WOULD A WOMAN WHO HAD NOTHING FURTHER VESTED IN A RELATIONSHIP CALL AND QUIZ 2 DIFFERENT WOMEN ABOUT HER BOYFRIEND? WHY WOULD SHE CALL HIS VERY SAD WIFE and say that she's HAVING HIS BABY!

I say she's sick and twisted and out for herself. She's trying to put a knife in the back of any woman she thinks is competition.

I am not some conspiracy theorist here...

I have just lived this and learned from it! They are vicious!

I would like to coin a new phrase...

OP=marriage terrorist!

I agree but this.....WH = the worst marriage terrorist I have seen on MB so far.

Slammed, what do you think about asking H to send a NC letter to OW before you will go out with him anywhere?

I am not going to tell you what to do, but I think going out with him tomorrow is setting yourself up for another let down. Do you think he changed in a few days. You did a great job of breaking up his A by your talks with OW, but this guy is just going to use you as his "replacement." I wouldn't trust him too soon. And if you do go out with him, make sure you are in a public place. He could get nastily mean!!

Lady

Three short days ago Mulan posted this to you.

It's still good advice.

This man has problems beyond Marriage Builders. OW leaving, or staying, does not make any difference.

Please take this seriously.

Everyone else: Please reread first post on this thread.

Slammed1,

I think what you are dealing with is FAR more serious than ONE OW. It is as though you are dealing with an entire army of OW's...if not this one, then another one, and another, and anohter.

Some clues you have written is that he is a stripper club, escort service, OW user, and does not do well alone, and has no interest in SF with his intimate partner. He is dealing with an addiction to love or sex and when he is under stress (now?) he will binge (now!).

His addiction is PROBABLY much worse than you could ever suspect. He has probably been able to abstain for periods in his life (like when you were first married) but under stress goes back to his coping activity, hunting and sexing and orgsmng.

He probably knows he has a problem, but ready to deal with it...hence moving from you, he wants his freedom to do what he wants, to cope the way he knows how.

I would NOT entertain thoughts of a possible recovery until he begins working on this issue...

I am not sure it is a great idea to be so available to him at thie point. He hasn't specifically told you he'd like to reconcile with you. It sounds like he is only in contact with you because you are there at his beck and call. I am not sure that is an attractive posture at this point.

I don't like some of the dishonest game playing that justpeachy suggests. I would prefer that you just use some self preservation and believe that you are worthy of being the better choice...even if he may not think so at this point. I think he has a lot to do that he is worthy to be back in your life.

Don't be so easy. He has screwed up royally. He needs to learn to be alone with himself. I don't think you want him back in his current weak state. He has lots of work to do and it doesn't even seem like he gets any of that. He just may go and find another to fill the void that is in his soul.

Be an example of a woman of value and principles. Attractive and vibrant without a sleasy soap opera existence. Continue with your active life without him at this point. Don't be so anxious to get him back. I don't think he is the one you want back in his current state.

Go dark.

Slammed,
I am with Trix on this one...I know you worry about him and all but he has a lot of working on himself to do before he can even think about coming to the M...he needs to find his own way...helping him probably prevents that learning process....

If you take him back right now, I worry he will just hurt you again...

You know the one thing I learned through all of this is that before H left I loved him unconditionally...but now my love comes with conditions....Being a romantic I never thought that I would feel this way nor did I think that was the right way to feel, but now...I have my bonderies, I know what I will take and what I will not...those are my conditions...

Bounderies are important...hard to inforce at some points and important...I worry he is walking all over them...Don't let him slammed!

BEst to you...you should not have to deal with this...

Daisy

Thanks to you all for your support and replies.
Today I am feeling very, very, down and hopeless and am just so tired of dealing with it all.

WH called last night and asked if it was okay if he stopped by to get his golf clubs, as he was planning to play this
morning. When he came by, he picked them up, got his mail,
dropped off some summer clothes, and briefly played with the
dog. I asked to talk for a moment and told him I'd like to know what he planned, or how he felt about things now.
He said he needed some time to think about things, see how
he felt, and just to be on his own some. I had a million
more questions, but just realized I needed to "leave it alone" so said goodnight.
Today I didn't know what to expect. He mentioned yesterday
that maybe we could do something together. I went ahead with my own plans (just housework and laundry). He called
awhile ago and said he wasn't able to golf (was rainy this
morning), was getting ready to go shopping for his daughter's birthday gifts. Didn't mention anything about us
doing anything. Was trying not to have any expectations but
it still hurt and makes me suspicious that he might still be in contact or trying to get back "in good graces" with OW. Makes me wonder if he told the truth about what he was
going yesterday. Makes me wonder if he has already found
someone else to get involved with. (maybe OW was right !)
Makes me wonder, why he wouldn't want to do anything with
me if he's not with someone else ?
Going to just have to get back to my Plan "Z" (zero
expectations) and realize that nothing has changed.
I've just not been feeling this down for awhile, and I hate
going back to this mood.

Peachy- I'm sure youre right about my still being a villain as WH has always been angry about my eforts to snoop on him and especially about exposure. When we spoke last week, he said he just couldn't understand why I would "spill my guts" to tell OW everything about him, and that he had never gone to such a level to talk about me or our marriage because he thought some things in a marriage were just "private". Now obviously, that was came from his anger over being exposed and he was probably embarassed about OW
knowing he had lied about many things. I suppose now that
OW has "snooped" and "exposed" to his XGF as well, she and
I must be considered on the same level to him.
I don't expect to hear and don't want to have any further
conversation with OW-

LAdy Sheep- Thanks for your insight. I too do have some sympathy for OW, as I think she really did get into the A
not having any idea of what she was getting in to. I think
she probably was getting suspicious and wanted to call to
find out the truth about WH. I just became very "leery" after realizing she told me more than necessary- especially
"laying it on heavy" about how much he loved her, how happy he was she was pregnant, how much money he was spending on her, etc. I also wonder why, after only 3months with him
she would seem to be still trying to stay together with him,
wants to know my plans and if I'd take him back, and even
would call his XGF if not some sort of ulterior motive-
but who knows !!? Seemed like she might be a bit vindictive
instead of just saying "adios".
I think you are exactly right that WH is just now talking
and showing a little interest in me because he's on his own
for the moment and maybe a little lonely, scared, etc.
I realize that really nothing has changed for me- and I need to just keep up with the more dark behavior I had been
using prior to these new revelations last week.

A.M./Mulan- I know and agree that WH has some serious problems. I sure want and have prayed for him to be able to
live a better, "normal", happier life.
I guess at times I've been in denial, hoping it was just a
passing "phase", but it seems that he has gotten worse as
time has gone by. I know that I cannot "fix" him or make
him get better- he has to take the step and do all the work himself, and so far, hasn't decided to take that step.
It is very hard for me to just accept that and realize there
is nothing I can do, and my heart just hurts so bad for him realizing he hasn't ever really been happy, has no real friends, is not close to family, really doesn't have anyone.
I have probably been an "enabler" to some degree- trying to
"love him enough" to make him want to change, hoping my prayers would turn him around, and thinking that "tough love" might help the situation. I guess I feel like a failure because I couldn't do anything.
I also still remember him the way he was when we first met and the way he was during our first several years together,
before there were any signs of mental/emotional issues and
want to have hope that he could be that way again.

Trix and Daisy- Thanks for the support and reminders about boundaries. I had been doing pretty well in my "semi" PLAN
B while WH was living with OW, as I just did my own thing,
made my own plans, didn't call him, didn't initiate things
with him- and I need to just stick with that plan. It's
hard because I felt like he and OW breaking up gave me a
chance to stear him back in my direction, but just a couple
days have gone by and I'm already back to feeling the anxious, desperate, "clingy" feeling that I hate feeling or
showing. I know that him coming back won't fix things and
we'd just be right back to the same issues in a short time,
so I don't want to go back to things being the same.
I want him to want to come back enough to do the work, go
to counseling, work on his issues, and really make changes
and I have a feeling that that just isn't going to happpen.
Guess I thought the breakup with OW would send him home
with remorse and wanting to make things work out, but
apparently not ! (I know, get a reality check !!)

Having a really tough day
Slammed

Reread the early posts on this thread. Send a Plan B letter if you must. But this guy has got too many problems for you to deal with. It's simply not your problem. He has to sort it out on his own time. If you're in the picture, he will destroy your life as well as his own. Plus you will become the needy, clingy, love-busting person you hate to be.

George Bernard Shaw said nothing changes a man except fine arts and torture. You haven't said anything about any WH's artistic inclinations -- and he's not tortured yet. It will get worse.

You need to get your own life. You were on the way to doing that when the sitch changed and you went back to "hope" mode.

Let OW#1, OW#2, ex-OW, and other supernumeraries doing the love-busting now. Save your life and your breath. Protect yourself.