15 months is a very long time to be struggling with all this. again, i am sorry for your pain. have you tried individual counsoling for some help?

AskMe,

What you say makes sense to me. My head works properly, but my feelings are all over the place. Time is limited though, so do I want to waste the relative little time we spend on this world on something that may turn out to be a mistake?

FinallyLearning,

I tried IC for a short while. It went well since I usually manage fairly well my issues. The reason why it took me such a long time to considering "recovery" is a long and complicated story. I had no intention to recover for longest time. It has only been recently that I have been thinking that maybe I should give it a try.

:::::This is punishing him. You are refusing to heal - ask yourself why?

::::::What is your payoff for not healing?

You know how in A's there are two levels of consciousness? I heard Dr. Phil use the term "altered reality" recently. We see this in WSs where it's really obvious. But why don't we recognise it in recovery? WSs can be in fog for ages after d-day. Even Lealas's H now has fog coz he wants to pretend it didn't happen. This is avoidence behavior for his accute embarrassement imo?

Anyway Lealas, the difficulty with you is that really you don't know what it is that is bothers you the most. The betrayal should be divided into many catagories. The assult was multifascited. There is a lot to forgive. I suspect that you don't want to be married to someone who is capable of hurting you that badly. I am at the 3 yr mark and I don't feel that different to you. But I actually don't want another relationship - because I've now realised that all relationships grow tired. They get mundane. They get ordinary. That is why a new person (an interloper), willing to play around with your spouse, will almost always get the job. Because, many of our spouses have a weakness for attention and flattery at least once in their M. Most wouldn't want a second bite of that particular cherry.

Being a good spouse, and loving someone very much, isn't enough to counteract that fundamental weakness people have for the excitment they feel from a new love interest. This makes the BS feel totally dejected and wondering what the point is of investing so heavily in someone who is so easily side tracked by short term gratification. Anyway, my suggestion is why not separate for a while? I haven't done this, but all along I've felt that I should. I think I needed six months to a year on my own - to grieve in private and to come to terms with having an unfaithful husband. I might just be fantasising but I've imagined that time alone would help me heal. I think I might have been back with my H by now and in a better place. Have you thought about a trial separation Lealas? It would help you to know more clearly whether you can make it on your own and whether you miss your H enough to forgive what he's done. I have accumulated a lot of information in 3 yrs - that has made me feel that a trial separation is not such a bad idea.

AN

Anyname,

Around two months after D-day, I told my H that I needed a trial separation. He said that he would prefer we didn't do it because he knew I wasn't likely to come back, but that if I really needed it he wouldn't fight it. I thought about and knew he was right about me not coming back. I also discussed it with my therapist and he insisted that I didn't go through with it. I am sure now I wouldn't have come back. I know I can make it on my own and be happy. It doesn't take much for me to be happy.

My H has to travel for work reasons. Every time he's gone, I find myself wanting to leave him. When he comes back, I look at him, hug him and kiss him, and I know I love him. When I don't see him, I reason more clearly and my feelings of love for him don't interfere so much with my thinking. Maybe what is wrong with me is that I love him, why do I love him so when he has hurt me so?

lealas - Yes, you do, both from your husband and from yourself.

It's "easy" to see the part that your husband needs to "play," but it's a lot harder to see the color of your own eyes without looking in the mirror.

Your husband, because of the Affair and the fact that it can never be "undone," OWES you a debt. That debt, because of the enormity of the sin, and personal attack on you by his CHOICE, is an "unpayable debt." No matter how much he "earns" in his lifetime, he would never be able to "earn" enough to pay you back what is owed and cannot "wipe out the debt."

You CAN throw him into "debtors prison," which is what you have been doing in "steps and starts." All you need to do to finish it off "until he can repay everything that is owed" to you is to actually toss him into "debtors prison" and LEAVE him there until he does repay the "Full Amount." That "prison" is called DIVORCE. Go get one and stop playing at being forgiving, because you are not, and will not be until you can learn about the "mirror" and the "unpayable debt" that you owe.

Until then, YOU are "blameless and perfect." Or perhaps you can assuage your conscience by telling yourself that, "well, I'm NOT perfect, but I'm waaaayyy better than that two-timing spineless wonder of an adulterer that I CHOSE to marry and now want to 'let him have me' as he pays his penance for the rest of his life....because 'I deserve better'...."

lealas, we ALL "deserve" better and we all "deserve" worse.
"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son (while we were still undeserving and in total depravity, debt, and adultery from Him) to die for us. God loved us enough to "risk" rejection AFTER he died to "pay the price" of our debt.

What's stopping you? It's hard to truly forgive when one does not think that they need forgiveness themselves.

You've been "trying it your way" and sort of "playing at forgiveness and recovery" for almost a year and half. Might it be time to "look elsewhere" and "try something different" before running into the "insanity brick wall" of expecting a different result while continuing to it "the same old way?"

ForeverHers,

Thank you so much. I like your no-nonsense approach and how you say it like you see it. I appreciate your input, but I have a few questions about what you said:

"...stop playing at being forgiving, because you are not, and will not be until you can learn about the "mirror" and the "unpayable debt" that you owe."

- What debt do I owe?

"It's hard to truly forgive when one does not think that they need forgiveness themselves."

- What do I need forgiveness for?

"You've been "trying it your way" and sort of "playing at forgiveness and recovery" for almost a year and half."

- True. Very, very true. It has been very hard for me to even consider the possibility of recommitting to the M. I have been in "confusionland" all this time. I wasn't sure of what I wanted to do with my life, so I did nothing hoping for something to happen that would point me in the right direction. But it has been too long, and now I have to face that if I don't do anything I might actually recover, and this is SCARY. I am definitely heading that way. H has been great, daily life is good, and somehow I think it is not fair…that he is getting away with murder. So these are probable my last desperate attempts to rebel before I end up giving up all fight, and accept the reality of the situation.

lealas,

i am in the same situation as your H. Today is exactly 1 year. Daily life is better, but he very clearly is not re-committing to the marriage. and i fear there is really nothing that can change that. and it is a very hard and sad way to live. after all, like you said, we are only here on the earth for a short time.

i didn't understand your quote...
did you mean "never" recovery?

and the thought that we are "getting away with murder", you have no idea the damage done to the WS too, yes by our choice. and it is understandable that you don't see that but if your H is truely remorseful, he is not getting away with anything. he is hurting, whether you see it or not.

your words are so hard to read. it's like i am hearing my own spouse. he won't divorce me, but he wont give himself to me either. and what am i suppose to do? i certainly will not divorce him. so i keep living my life as best i can and deal with the constant pain and sadness. is that what you want your H to do for the rest of his life.

maybe some people just cannot get past a betryal like this. seems to me that those people have an obligation to leave then. you are his wife, you are getting the benefits of being his life and yet you don't want to truely love him. doesn't that mean you are breaking marriage vows.

I think it is not fair…that he is getting away with murder.

Your WH had an affair. It was dreadful Eviscerating. You have three primary options now:

Divorce
Resentful punishing marriage
Recovery

Theres pain involved in all three scenarios, but all have their merits depending on your mindset.

Have a good think abot how your life will look in a few year down EACH timeline. Then decide firmly what you want to do.

Don't wobble, take one of the options with all your energy lealas.

As roosevent said

FinallyLearning,

I love my H very much, if I didn't I would have left long ago. I can only torture myself for so long and I know I am reaching the end of the rope, the point where I am going to forgive him and give myself to him completely again. This is such a scary scenario for me that I am trying to find all kinds of excuses to leave him. I know I am definitely heading for recovery and the fear to put my happiness in his hands again, to give him my heart, is so overwhelming that I am resisting, even though I know deep down that is a lost cause.

Your husband will get to where I am someday, and eventually he will surrender like I know I will. Just be patient. He is probably as fearful as I am to trust with his heart somebody that has mistreated it so badly. But he must love you very much if he chose to stay with you.

Lealas,

well i hope you are right about my H.

do you think your H knows how bad you are struggling right now? did you do MC? did you two recover togheter? have you talked intimately to each other as you have traveled along the path?

just wondering....

you sound so depressed about recovering, i just don't get that!!! why not embrace the man your H has become??

why isn't the idea of being able to forgive him and more on a joyful thing?

FinallyLearning,

The reason why I sound so depressed when I think about recovery is the immense fear I have. That is the only reason, I am afraid. I want to believe he will never hurt me again, but I would have never thought he would have and he did. So I doubt my capacity for sound judgment, how do I trust myself when I was so wrong before?

Now I have to put my faith in somebody that deceived me. It is not an easy thing to do. It takes time to start trusting after such a betrayal. I am very hurt and although I have begun to heal, complete recovery will take time.

We did go to MC, but the counselor told us after a few visits that we were going to be fine and that we didn't need to go back. You know, he was probably right. I strongly suspect we are going to be fine, despite of my fits of fear.

We have talked intimately, but not very often. I tend to shield my H from my rage. He doesn't know and he doesn't want to know of my struggles. They scare him, and pain him...to see how much I hurt, so I don't show him because I don't want him to suffer.

I'd bet your H is going through the same fears I am.

Thanks Bob, I appreciate your input, and I liked the quote.

yes, i do believe he is going thru the exact same fears.

is there anything i can do to help him? is there anythiny your H can do to help you?

FinallyLearning,

I think that time and consistency in his behavior (honest and loving) are the things that I need the most.

Show your H that you understand his pain, that you understand what made you vulnerable to the A and that you have taken steps to correct the problem. Show him that he is the only man you want by looking at all other men as human beings and not males. He needs frequent reassurance that you will never again put him through this agony. Be loving and be patient. A year is not such a long time; experts say it takes two to three years to recover. Keep in mind that your H must love you very much. He has chosen to share his life with you in spite of all.

thanks lealas. for your kindness and for your encouragement. i really do appreciate it.

and i hope your marriage continues to grow and heal.

Lealas, “fear” is at the bottom of most of our “indecisions” in life. Primarily, it’s a “fear of the future,” since we don’t know what we might face in the future. It could be illness, grave disease, terrible pain and a broken body from a car accident, a “No Fault” divorce, infidelity by our spouse….the list goes on and on of “maybes.” Unfortunately, no one is promised a tomorrow. All any of us really has is just TODAY, the “here and now.”

Most fears are based in things that we feel we “can’t control.” Fear of the future is an illusion, to a large extent, because we DO control TODAY. And “today” is what shapes and molds the future to become the “today” that realizes our fears or the “today” that stood up to the fears and CHOSE to mold the sort of good future that we “hope” for, rather than “fear.”



Okay, you have to understand that I approach all things from a “Christian” perspective. The “debt” that I am speaking about is the debt that we each owe God that keeps us eternally separated from Him. That debt is known as “sin.” “All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God” is the operative idea. WITHOUT the love of God for us, while we were hopelessly lost in our sins, there would have been no Jesus Christ and no forgiveness of sins by God. We would stand condemned to an eternity in the “lake of fire,” eternally separated from God and His love.



BUT Jesus paid the “unpayable by us” debt for all our sins. He sacrificed Himself for us, to pay the debt on our behalf. We, as Christians, stand forgiven of all that we could never repay on our own.

That is the idea behind such statements as “from one who has been forgiven much, much is expected.” It is the idea behind the parable of the “unmerciful servant” who was forgiven a enormous, unpayable, debt by his master, and then turned around and would not “do the same” for a fellow servant who owed him a comparatively very small debt.


In the matter of forgiving, truly forgiving, the debt that your husband, or my wife, incurred by committing one of the plethora of sins, this one called “Adultery,” we get a “taste” of the enormity of the impact of our sins on God. It’s a HUGE impact. WE, you and I, stand (if we are Christians) as the “servant” whom God chose to forgive ALL of our sins. Sins so many and so egregious to God that it COST Him to forgive us and to “wipe the slate clean.” Now it’s “our turn.” Will we “take” and not “give likewise?”

Lealas, I don’t want to minimize the impact of adultery on a marriage or on the Betrayed Spouse. We are NOT God. We are mere mortal humans living in a fallen body and a fallen world and NOT glorified yet. We FEEL. We FEAR. We LOVE, but are afraid to TRUST…..because we KNOW that our spouse was, and perhaps always will be, capable of hurting us enormously.

So we fall back on the over worn cliché, “Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.” So we keep our guard up. Now understand, it is WISE to keep your guard up for “a while” when in recovery. But the GOAL is not to remain in “recovery,” but to pass through it and into RECOVERED. The timeframes for recovery are all different. All we can say with any confidence about anyone else is that the “average recovery timeframe” is 2 years. In reality, they can go much longer because so much of recovery is “in the hands of the Betrayed Spouse,” assuming that the Wayward Spouse HAS repented and is seeking to live a committed marriage to the betrayed spouse.

You, Me, and all Betrayed Spouses, have to “Embrace the Threefold Promise” that we make when we tell our repentant spouse, “I forgive you.” If we don’t, then WE are living a lie also and “pretending” to forgive for our own reasons….usually to “not lose” to some spouse thief who has tried to steal what was “ours.” Our spouse becomes a “possession” and not a “life partner” when we choose to not fully forgive…or commit to working toward being ABLE to “let go” and fully forgive. Like LOVE itself, “forgiveness” begins with a CHOICE to act that way, to embrace it, to conform our feelings, fears, etc., to DOING what the word implies. It becomes a VERB, and action verb….and the feelings follow the actions (sometimes quickly and sometimes over and extended period of time).

But here’s the really hard part. If we don’t see ourselves as sinners in NEED of a Savior, then there is no real “forgiveness model” to go by and no set of Standards that would apply to both of us equally. We are left with trying to establish a set of Standards that “feel good” to us, individually, and to try to get someone else to “buy into” what WE choose at what could be called the “worldly grocery store of societal mores, morals, ethics, and standards.”

We are left with thinking of ourselves as being “better than” others, especially the “weasel” we wound up marrying. That “weasel” needs to grovel and beg our forgiveness for the rest our his/her life and be happy with the “crumbs we throw them.” That’s NOT a marriage, obviously. It’s more a “master/slave” sort of “living together.”

IF we forgive, and if we let the walls of fear down, we DO accept that we COULD be hurt again. For me, it’s a strong reason why husbands and wives should not be unevenly yoked. If the one we are trying to “please” with our behavior, and the one that will “hold us accountable” for our choices, IS God, then we live according to HIS standards and will greatly lessen the chances of getting hurt in the future because of adultery through our choice to be obedient to God’s commands. I believe, rightly or wrongly, that a Christian who once succumbed to the temptations of adultery will NEVER go there again when they have repented to God and have seen the devastation that it caused, and FELT the enormity of the “unpayable debt” that was forgiven them, first by God and then by their spouse…the two who have loved them sacrificially and “above and beyond the call.” In essence, we have “passed through” the refining fire and surrendered “our will” to God’s will (we tried it “our way” and saw what happened when we thought we knew best). We learn that “servanthood to God and to each other” is freeing and empowering and leads to huge strides in love and protection for each other.



Lealas, in one respect he IS “getting away with murder.” I believe that adultery does “murder” the marriage that was, and only through forgiveness, undeserved forgiveness, can a new marriage be resurrected on the ashes of the old marriage. “Getting away with…” implies the need for a “pound of flesh,” a “debtors prison” time to pay back what is owed or remain locked away for the rest of one’s life, etc. It implies that something could be done to “Earn” his way back. Yes, there ARE things that need to be done to “earn” your belief that his changes are sincere, even if he is doesn’t “do it just the exact way YOU would do it if it were you trying to “earn your way back.” But those outward “things” give you something to see that it’s more than just words, that real change has happened, that the lies have stopped and there is NO affair (not that he can’t still have “bad judgment” from time to time).

I chose to accept God’s forgiveness for MY sins, big and small. I “got away with them” in the sense that God’s forgiveness PARDONS all my sins and I “get out of jail and the firey furnace.” It “cost” me repenting of my sins and accepting the gracious gift that God offered me. It “cost” God a lot to forgive me, but LOVE “trumped” the cost.

You have chosen to NOT show him your anger. It’s probably too late now, after 15 months, but generally speaking the WS NEEDS to see the anger you feel early after d-day, so that it will “impress upon them” the need to never again be source of such pain in your life again IF they choose the “recovery road” instead of the “divorce road and the OP road.” What is NOT “too late” now is to make it clear that NO CONTACT” is not an option and you can let him see how badly it has hurt you, even if he “didn’t think it was a big deal for HIM.”

Admitting we did wrong, especially when it’s a huge wrong, is NOT easy. One thing that a WS MUST have, at some point, is the reality and belief that they CAN be truly forgiven. IF not, then they are left with knowing that NOTHING they can ever do will be “enough” to repay the “unpayable debt.” By the same token, YOU have to have a husband, not a slave boy that you “command.” You need a partner, not a hired hand. You need love that says, “here’s my fragile heart, take it and care for it.” “I will do the same with your fragile heart.” WE are ONE, not two, and we will not hurt ourselves again, on purpose or callously. We will, from this day forward, weigh all things in the balance of “good or bad for our marriage” even if it “appeals to us alone.”

God bless.

Thank you ForeverHers.

I like your approach: concentrating in "here and now" as a way to shape the future. I've never thought about it this way and it helps to reduce my anxiety for the future.

I am working on forgiving my H. Not too long ago, I would have sworn there was no way it was ever going to happen, ever. But the other night, I was looking at him and I was overcome by a "wave" of love...I do love him so, so I reached out to touch him and I almost said "I forgive you" before I caught myself. I was surprised because it was such a sudden unexpected thought. So I have been reading about forgiveness and wondering if I'd be able to. I honestly didn't think I had it in me. But this event also triggered my fear. My H was away last week and I went into self-preservation mode. By the time he came back, I had succeeded in convincing myself that I should leave him.

I believe my H knows how much he has hurt me. I also believe he is truly sorry for what he did. At first, for the first six months, I think he was only sorry for being caught, but the last time I tried to leave him, I think he "saw the light" and became sorry for what he did to us.

I have never treated my H badly. On d-day I calmly told him that I knew about the A (with my then best friend) and that I wanted a divorce. That he could keep everything and that the only thing I wanted was never to hear from him again. He said he loved me and that he made a mistake. No arguments, no shouts, nothing. I have always treated him with respect, never abused him in any way. And it is because I’ve always treated him so kindly, that I have the feeling that he is getting away with murder.

My H and I believe in God but not in religion, but we were both raised in Christian families, so we have retained the moral principles.

I think I'm beginning to understand the underlying problem that both of you share.

You both know, because of your upbringing, "about God." You also know that God is LORD and Creator, and we are "not god" ourselves, but you and your husband "want to be the sovereign" in your individual lives.

I believe in God but not in religion. The reality is that this statement is a "false statement" in that any belief can be called a "religion." Atheism is a "religion" of "no God." Secular humanism is a "religion" of "individual humans as lord of their own lives, a kingdom unto themselves." Satan "believes in God," but prefers his own "brand of religion" and will not surrender his life to Christ.

This explains a lot about why you are struggling with forgiveness. You still see it(Your husband's adultery) as primarily a "sin" against you, the "lord" of your life. HE is "in debt to you" and as long as you withhold forgiveness he REMAINS in debt to you and "under your control." You are afraid to "totally forgive him" because that entails both "letting him off the hook for good," a loss of "control" on your part, and the inherent opening up of your heart to the possibility of further pain because you know he is just as "fallen" a human as you are and CAN make bad choices in the future that could hurt you if he proceeds from a selfish, "me first," standpoint.

The fundamental problem with that sort of thinking is that he, too, thinks HE is "lord of his life" and thereby gets to make decisions for his life and actions that he wants to make BECAUSE he is "lord" and answers to no one else. So now you have two "kings" deciding what is in their own best interest regardless of what anyone else thinks. Besides, "everyone else" is just another way of saying "subjects" and definitely NOT "co-equal partners." There is NO "one flesh" situation here...just two "islands" that have bumped up against one another for while, until one of the islands decides to "go it alone."

Lealas, you really have two "affairs" to deal with. The most obvious one to you is your husband's affair. You can "see it, touch it, feel it, etc." because it was a SIN against YOU, sovereign lord of your island. But there is another affair that continues to this day and YOU are the "WS" in that affair. That other affair is your estrangement from God. KNOWING about God and "accepting and surrendering to Him" are two very different things. Until you make the choice to put God on the "throne of your life" and recognize Him as Sovereign in you life, you will NOT be able to accept His forgiveness for your sins or be able to reciprocate such forgiveness to your husband.

Here's something for you and your husband to think about. Could it be that God can use this awful experience of infidelity to draw you to Him and closer to each other than either of you thought possible? To examine what sin is, that we are all in need of forgiveness, and that God is the one true Sovereign Lord? If you want to learn about forgiveness and restoration and creating a new, loving, relationship, where better to look than to Christ, the epitome and one true model of forgiveness, restoration, and sanctification...of what true and complete LOVE is?

I know that might sound a little "preachy," but one more time let me ask you both "does it make sense to keep doing things the same way (your own way complete with excuses and "feelings" as justification for behavior) and expect any different result than what you've had over the past 15 months, or the entire infidelity timeframe?" Why do you both continue to refuse to answer the "knock at your door?" Is it because if you "let Christ in" as Lord of your lives you are "afraid" that it might require a change in some things that you "want to do YOUR way?"

Lealas, accepting Christ is no different than most of your decisions. You keep "putting it off" and hoping for a better future while at the same time living in fear of a future that hasn't happened yet and that you don't control. NO ONE is promised tomorrow, so "waiting" is an illusion. It requires making a choice TODAY and letting today's choice shape and mold the future. The big difference is in WHO will be "in control" of that future, yourselves and all your human faults, or God the loving Creator and Savior? God, whether we believe in Him or not, has given humans "TODAY" only to deal with. We can't can't change the past and God reserves the FUTURE to Himself in His omniscience and omnipotence and His PROMISES to those who "love Him and keep His commands."

So, who do you want to be in control of the many "possible futures" for you and your marriage?

God bless.