ForeverHers,

When I said "My H and I believe in God but not in religion" I meant "organized religion." I agree with you that being the lord of one’s life is a big burden. I envy people like you who have strong religious beliefs. And I wish I had faith because I think life would be easier for me if I did. But I can't believe in something I don't believe just to make my life easier. I believe in God, I just don't believe in the same things you do.

I was talking to my husband last night about forgiveness and he said that he knew I was going to forgive him one day because he knows me and he knows my heart.

Thank you for all your help.

Lealas - Okay. That's a very cryptic and confusing statement. Could you clarify WHAT it is that you, and perhaps your husband if it's the same, believe in, or about, "God?" Obviously, I believe in the biblical "Christian" God, but you may not, and I don't want to "step on your toes" or inadvertantly counsel against what you might find helpful.

With respect to your assumption that I have some sort of "mystical" strong belief, let me assure you that my faith was "hanging by a thread" after d-day". But that ALL that God "needs" from us to be effective in our lives. He tells us that our faith can be "as small as a tiny mustard seed" and still be more effective than is needed. The reason is because of CHRIST, not because of "us." It is NOT a "works based" faith, it is a "done, once and for all, gift from God on behalf of Christ based solely upon our acceptance of that gift."

So you say that you don't believe the same things I do. That may be true if you do not believe in Jesus Christ as your personal Lord and Savior. If that is true, WHAT is it that you do believe so I will not be making some incorrect assumptions.

God bless.

ForeverHers,

I was raised Catholic and went to church every Sunday. As I grew up and improved my education, I became disillusioned with the Catholic Church. In my opinion too many things didn't add up or weren't even in accordance with the bible. So, this made me think, what does make sense to me?

I gave it a lot of thought and arrived to a belief that I felt was logical. I believe God is all the energy in the universe, and I think that there is a logic to the way it "moves" through time and space. So God does impact our lives since we are half energy, but I don't think it's in an individual way, but a general way (for example the way species would evolve).

For the longest time I thought I was the only person to believe this, but I have found a couple of other people that, through the same method, had arrived to the same conclusions. My H is not one of them. His view of God is more conventional. I have nothing against organized religions; I just can't believe in something that doesn't make sense to me.

Thank you again. I want you to know that I do appreciate your help.

Lealas, thanks for the clarification. Suffice it say, that in our understanding of what God is, we are "miles apart." That's not unusual, but it does illustrate the need to "define terms" so that what is being said when certain terms are used is understood by the "hearer."

There are fundamental differences in your concept of "God" and my concept of "God." Yours is fundamentally based on your "feelings," on "what feels like it 'makes sense'" to your human oriented thoughts and experiences. Mine is based on the same things, yet the "authority" for "right and wrong, truth or fiction" is, in my case, placed outside of my own limited experience and "ego centric" feelings. It is placed in the veracity of Scripture and the PERSON of Jesus Christ.

Now, from what you said, I don't know what it is that you found about Roman Catholicism to be "disillusioning" or things that "didn't add up or weren't even in accordance with the bible." But I would tend to agree with your "Reaction" to those dilemnas..."So, this made me think, what does make sense to me?" (That same sort of disillusionment and thinking is what led to the Reformation and the 95 Thesis of Martin Luther)

But going off into a "metaphysical" explanation would seem to be trying to make God into what we can "define" or "accept" from a human perspective. That can, in my opinion, easily result in "incorrect" assumptions, and subsequent incorrect and/or partial "conclusions."

An example if I may: "I believe God is all the energy in the universe, and I think that there is a logic to the way it "moves" through time and space." God IS "energy," "spirit," "omnipotent power," "creator," "sustainer," etc." Those are terms we use to describe some of the attributes of God, of what "makes up" the "I AM" of Scripture. But it would be "incorrect" to say that God is ONLY "one" of the attributes because we can't "see" or "understand" from our limited perspective the entirety of God.

I suppose the "best" example of how this limited "sight" or "knowledge" can lead to wrong conclusions is the story about the blind men attempting to describe an Elephant. You probably know that story, so I won't bore you with recounting it, but the idea that "God is all the energy in the universe" is similar to the blind man who "felt" the elephant's tail and thought the elephant was like a snake. "All the energy in the universe" IS part of God, as God sustains the universe by His will and His power. That "energy" is a part of God, but it is NOT the totality of God anymore than the "tail" is the totality of the elephant.

Even as the blind men work their individual way's around the elephant, learning more and more about the "component pieces" that make up the elephant, they may be able to "get closer" to a truer picture of what the elephant is like in totality. Conversely, another blind man might also grab the tail and conclude the same thing that the first "tail grabbing blind man" thought. They could "join together and be of 'like mind', and they would still be wrong.

But they ARE blind and they do not have the "capacity" to "see for themselves" what the whole elephant actually looks like or how all the parts work together as part of the "whole."

We, humans, are in much the same position as the blind men. We can "see" and "know" some things, but the "Totality" of God is beyond our present knowledge, capacity, and capability. ONLY Jesus Christ, the second person of the Trinity, HAS seen God and IS God Himself, and is thus uniquely positioned to "describe" God to us in terms a human might be able to understand. In that sense, it's like the blind men with the elephant putting their "trust and belief" in a person of sight (who is NOT blind) and who KNOWS elephants inside and out.

Those same blind men also have to make a decision on "who to believe," their own limited feelings as they work their way around the elephant, the various "opinions" of other "sighted" individuals who have varying degrees of understanding of what an elephant is that range from "never heard about or saw an elephant in their lives" to "those who have dedicated their lives to studying and learning all they can about the actual pacyderms," to those, who, for whatever reason, want to "twist the truth about elephants to support their own desires (i.e. elephants are big, heavy, with huge feet that are MEANT to be used to crush Pecan shells so that can humans can get the pecans). They might be able to be "used" that way, but they were not "meant" to be used that way. It is TRUE that elepants would break a pecan shell by stepping on it, but that's a byproduct of, not the purpose of, BEING an elephant who happened to step on a pecan shell.

So what does all of that have to do with what we started out talking about, how to forgive your husband and recover your marriage? It has to do with, as I said earlier, how you "see" yourself as a being in need of forgiveness by God first. There ARE, despite all the tons of verbage spewn about for years and years, ONLY two possible "origins" for life. Neither "origin" can be based in science, but are in the realm of "faith." Either all things, including life and us humans, "Evolved" out of inorganic matter, or it was "Created" by the will, design, and power of a "Supreme Living Being" that we call "God" and who calls Himself by the best human descriptive term available..."I AM."

To believe that the "fence can be straddled" is not an answer either. By that I mean that there are some who like to think they can "compromise" on the "either/or" and let "God" kick-start everything by Creation and then walk away and let random evolution arrive at everything else. That makes about as much sense as saying a Father and Mother can create and "kick-start" a new life, but as soon as the baby is born, they walk away and let it "survive on it's own." Randomly speaking, one could "argue" that given enough "babies" left to their own "chances," certainly some of them would not starve to death and would survive and grow and become "self-sufficient" and "self-replicating" with other "survivors."

Suffice it to say that from what you have said, I am assuming that you personally don't believe in the concept of "original sin," or "Satan," or other "truths" that are revealed in Scripture. That's the basis of what I mean by a "different perspective" on the whole issue of "Forgiveness." I suspect that you won't arrive at an answer to the "forgiveness" question, or dilemna within your marriage, until you first address the issue of God and Jesus Christ.

EITHER Jesus IS who he said he is, or he isn't. There is no "middle ground" on that. Either Jesus did "rise from the dead" or he didn't. Simply put, IF Jesus is NOT who he said he is and did NOT rise from the dead, ALL of Christianity (regardless of particular denomination) is FALSE and any other belief "man" can "dream up" is "true." "I am the way and the truth and the life" is what Jesus claimed. IF He is NOT the Son of God, the promised Messiah, then such a claim is FALSE, a LIE, and should NOT be followed. On the other hand, if it is TRUE, what we "feel" is irrelevant and we need to let the "one with true knowledge and sight" describe God and "what is" to us because HE "knows" and we don't.

So we are back to what I originally asked you, do you see yourself as a sinner in need of forgiveness of your "unpayable debt" by the living God who created us for Himself as the "bride of Christ," or not?

If NOT, then WHY should you forgive and restore your husband other than so you can be "lord and sovereign" in your marriage, whereby he is kept in "servitude" and "in debt" to you for the rest of his life? "Co-equality" is ruled out as long as Christ is not the sovereign on the throne of your marriage. That sort of "forgiveness" merely is "words without substantive meaning." It says, essentially, "okay, I let you off the hook as long as you keep meeting my needs, otherwise, I toss you to the dogs and revoke my 'limited' forgiveness. I DO NOT promise to 'not hold your past "sins" against you. I DO NOT promise to not gossip about your "weakness" to others to show how much "better a person" I am by contrast. I DO NOT promise to "let go" and not dwell constantly on what you did 'back then'."

It sounds to me that you might be mixing "angers" here and it may be leading to confusion on what, or how, to "Forgive, move on, and rebuild a better marriage."

The "first anger" was with the Catholic Church and their teachings and "problems" with what the Scripture says. So you "opted" for "going with your feelings." They (the Catholic Church) "hurt you," so you are NOT letting Christianity of any kind back into your life where it might "hurt you" in some ways again.

Now you are dealing with another "betrayal," this time it's your life partner and "soulmate." This time he "went against" what you KNEW to be the ONLY true course for marriage....total and complete fidelity....or as it is "biblcially put," forsaking ALL others and keeping myself only unto you."

So now you "need" to follow your "feelings" and keep him at arms length, let him in only "so far." Now you need to search for a "new definition" of marriage and how husbands and wives relate and become, or not become, "one flesh."

YOU were wronged. As God was "wronged" by our sin, there is only one way back to God and only one way (true, complete, forgiveness "as God has forgiven us") back to a "Garden of Eden" sort of marriage. We can "feel" and "choose" based solely upon our emotions, or we can use our whole "mind, heart, and soul" to learn, to forgive, to grow, to become "more Christ-like" in our individual walk with God and with each other.

It DOES take two. It takes "Forgiver" and "Forgiven." It takes a servant who has themselves been forgiven an "unpayable debt" to "pass on" that gift to a servant who "owes them." Then both stand "Forgiven" and "equal in the sight of God" and in the sight of each other, no longer blind men stumbling around the "elephant" in the middle of your house.

God bless.

ForeverHers,

I enjoy discussing religion with well-educated and intelligent people, but I am always afraid of offending somebody. I will do my best not to offend you, but if I do, please know that it wasn’t my intention. I respect your beliefs; I envy how sure you are of them. I am not sure of mine, and I admit I could be wrong.

I am not sure I understood you right, are you contending that only people with Christian believes are able of true forgiveness? Maybe I should first tell you what forgiveness means to me. I have been giving it a lot of thought lately. I think I will know that I have forgiven my husband when remembering the A, I look at him and don’t think “******” or something like that…when I don’t have resentment towards him.

“WHY should you forgive and restore your husband other than so you can be "lord and sovereign" in your marriage, whereby he is kept in "servitude" and "in debt" to you for the rest of his life?" Honestly, that is not why I’m withholding forgiveness. I think the reason I can’t forgive him right now is mainly because of my fears, and I am sure that wanting to punish him has some part of it.

We have co-equality in our marriage, which brings me to the issue of “rebuilding a better marriage.” This is one of the sorest areas for me. We did have a great marriage pre-affair. We were both very happy in our marriage, I honestly don’t see how the marriage we had could have been improved, but that is not the worst part, I just don’t see how we are ever going to be able to have a marriage as good as the one we had. That marriage died and I am still mourning it.

You are right, I don’t believe in “original sin” but that doesn’t mean I don’t believe in sin. I know I have sinned many times. I am not 100% good, and although I strive to better myself, there is a part of me that has a tendency to be mean. I believe that is human nature.

As far as Satan goes, I think that there are many “satans” on earth as we speak. I used to work in several prisons, and I saw many clients that would make Satan look like a good guy.

In the issue of Creationism vs. Evolution, my belief is that evolution took place with God being involved in every single step of the way. God guided evolution in a specific direction. I don’t think that God left evolution alone after kick-starting it. The Bible uses many parabolas to explain complicated issues so everybody can understand them, why couldn’t the story about creation be in fact a parabola, not to be taken literally, but interpreted?

This brings me to the veracity of the bible. The bible is a wealth of information, but some of the information contradicts itself. Also the way it was decided which texts to include in the bible (one person’s decision) and the fact that some of the texts were passed verbally through the centuries makes me wonder about exactly how precise the information contained in it is. I like to take it as a general guide, where the spirit/intention of the teaching is more important than the minutiae which could have been altered inadvertently with the passage of time.

I do believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, but I believe that we are all the sons/daughters of God. I think he was very intelligent, but I don’t know about the rest.

Like I said before, I respect your point of view, I just have a different one. Thanks again.

Lealas, I have no intention of "adding" to your mental struggles right now, so I will NOT discuss "Christianity," the alleged discrepancies in the Bible, the decision (not made by one man by the way) as to what books make up the "CANON" of Scripture, your "understanding" of what and who Jesus Christ is, etc., WITHOUT you, yourself, indicating that you would like to discuss any of those areas, or any others for that matter.

Please understand (and forgive me for this statement), I don't "care" what you or anyone else believes. I DO "care" in the same way that God wants ALL of us to come to Him THROUGH Jesus Christ, and I stand ready to discuss it with anyone who wishes to discuss it, but it is GOD who draws people to Himself and uses believers to answer questions and to give a reason why we believe. God has used people to deliver HIS messages throughout history, and the Bible contains the inspired revelation of God through people HE chose to use to deliver that message. We are commanded to "witness" if you will, through missionary work at home and abroad, through how we live our lives, through standing ready to answer "inquiring minds," etc., but we are NOT the "converting agent." That is God's realm, and MANY will not surrender to Christ and accept the ONLY way to "Forgiveness of sins" that God has provided.

I AM also going to tell you "my opinion." It is what *I* think and you are free to agree or disagree. All I generally ask is that anyone involved in an exchange of ideas (often called discussion and/or debate of ideas) support their opinions with facts and not "just" personal opinion and preference regardless of the "Facts."

Your "issue" of FORGIVENESS is one such issue. There are two "big" groupings under which the term "forgiveness" can fall.

1. Forgiving sins (as sin is defined in Scripture).

2. Forgiving hurts against us (whether or not we believe in biblical sin or God)

The first is what I was referring to earlier with my comments about an "unpayable debt." I won't go into that further unless you want to explore it more because it requires an acceptance of God and Jesus Christ to "understand" it, let alone to "accept it." It IS the “expunging” of the sin and carries with it a pledge and promise that WE, the forgiver, make to the one we forgive.

The second is what you are talking about, and I think (my opinion) that you are "fooling yourself" about what forgiveness is and YOUR capacity to truly forgive.

An example: You said, "I think I will know that I have forgiven my husband when remembering the A, I look at him and don’t think “******” or something like that…when I don’t have resentment towards him. " That's a "nice idea," but it's not going to happen. It's not that you "won't" want to achieve that, it's that you "can't" achieve that. That's an "impossible dream," unless you develop something like Alzheimer's disease or Amnesia and lose your physical ability to recall events of the past from your "computer like archive of a harddrive" called your memory.

Lealas, you CAN "choose" to forgive and behave according to that choice, but the memories will still be there, available for access by recall or trigger. They are there for all of us, Christians or not, because of the mind that God gave us. Even God does not "Forget" anything, but He has the capacity to put a forgiven sin as far away from his thoughts as the "east is from the west" so that it is "as if" it was forgotten and never occurred. It will NEVER be held against us with respect to our salvation IN Christ.

We, humans, DO NOT, have the same capacity to "Forget" the sin. We may try to "fool ourselves" into thinking we do, or can, "forget," but we can't. Generally speaking, when someone tries to attain what you are seeking, they are trying to "make themselves god" in this arena. They can "fool" themselves for a while, but it BEGINS with the idea that they are "lord" of their lives and that all others are "inferior" to them. They may, as you have done, try to say, "oh no, we are equals," but that simply isn't true and isn't borne out by the "facts."

We can even choose to not pursue revenge or to be “bitter” or “resentful” about it. But not the same thing as “Forgiving” someone. I, for example, choose not to pursue revenge against my wife or the OM. I choose not to be “bitter” or “resentful” toward the OM, SO THAT I will not be “consumed” in my anger. But I have NOT forgiven him and it is unlikely that I ever will. I’ll not rule it out totally, but he’s going to have to first surrender his life to Christ, and that’s not likely to happen. Now, if I had to LIVE with the OM, bitterness and resentfulness would be very hard, if not impossible, to “put away” without the prerequisite of forgiveness of the sin. That can’t happen without repentance, or it’s a “false and self-serving attempt to fool myself” that there is any change in behavior on his part.

You and your husband are "islands," not "one flesh in Christ.” You are two distinctly different people who have chosen to "be with" each other solely for your own individual reasons and desires. That desire for a man and woman to be together in marriage is good, and is God’s design for us. However, the "concept" of "surrendering" to each other for THEIR good, even if it hurts you or goes against what you would "prefer," is NOT part of the equation because you each evaluate things from the perspective of being "sovereign" in your own life and only DO what you each want to do for your own reasons. We tend to react in self-protection and against self-sacrifice much as Cain did when he asked God, “Am I my brother’s keeper?” The answer, of course, is “yes,” if we love them and put their needs and welfare ahead of our own “self-interest.” And sometimes it “costs” us to love that sacrificial way.

Now, like it or not, part of your "upbringing" may have included biblical concepts, and you may well have "appropriated" some of them as being "good for you," while rejecting others because they would "make you change or do something that you don't 'want to do," or simply rejected it because the people misinterpreted or miss-applied the truth of God and you found them to be “hypocritical” and “self-serving.” Sinful PEOPLE can sin and misrepresent God to others. An example that comes up frequently is the "Golden Rule." What the "Golden Rule" is speaking about is the issue of STANDARDS, and whose standards do we accept as being applicable to our lives so that we will "embrace" those standards and "make them our own."

It (forgiveness and biblical ethics) "originated" in the Scripture, but it has been "appropriated" (in part) by many, especially by those who are empathetic toward others and how THEIR actions might affect someone else. There is nothing “wrong” with someone choosing the “ethics” of the Scripture; in fact, it would be helpful for much of society. But people tend to appropriate only those “parts” that one chooses as applicable to themselves and rejects the “founding principle” that is behind the issue….the reality of God and that HE is sovereign, not us. Thus we wind up with “form” without the “substance.”

Where the “problem” for you lies, is in your “concept” of what Forgiveness is and how you will be “able” to forgive your husband. That you LOVE him is evident, or you wouldn’t still be with him. But LOVE, alone, is not enough. It also takes FORGIVENESS because we all sin, big and little, against our spouses all the time in thought, word, and deed. NONE of us is without sin or without the need to be forgiven.

So let’s turn to one fundamental difference in how you “perceive” forgiveness. Returning to the “definition” of forgiveness as you perceive it, you said, "I think I will know that I have forgiven my husband when remembering the A, I look at him and don’t think “******” or something like that…when I don’t have resentment towards him. "

Here are couple of things for you to think about.

First, this is all about YOU and you working out something. Forgiveness is NOT based in you “working” anything out. It is a gift given in response to repentance and it carries with it the BINDING responsibilities TO no longer dwell on the sin or that he “chose poorly.” It DOES carry with it the responsibility of restored full fellowship with NO reservation. Yes, before you jump on that to perceive too much, the “consequences” of the sin may still require some things, like “accountability,” to lend truth to the professed repentance. But after a while, that “proof” will establish the reality of the change and that “accountability” in that area is no longer required, or no longer required at the previous level. In fact, in most cases the repentant one will adopt the “accountability measure” on their own anyway because THEY don’t want you possibly hurt in any way and want to reassure you.

Second, as long as you “see yourself” in a “superior” position, the risk is great that “Forgiveness” really means “beholden to you” for the rest of his life. In that vein, he will never be able to “do enough” to earn total forgiveness and expunging of the debt. You will always be “one step higher” on the “good person” ladder because you didn’t commit THAT particular bad “crime.” Never mind that you might be guilty of other crimes, they are nowhere near as serious, so you maintain a “one upsmanship” position, and hence, the [/b]entitlement[/b] of feeling bitter and resentful toward him. But the “Judgment” in all of this is “Human Reason” and “Human Standards.” Not only do they change or can be “faulty,” then do nothing to address our own need to be forgiven by God, who IS the one true Sovereign. Until we see ourselves as in need of forgiveness by God, totally and freely given by God through Jesus Christ, we don’t “need” to be forgiven because WE are “sovereign” and do whatever we like.

“Let go and let God” is a phrase you may have heard many times. But it really means what it says. We “let” God control and guide our lives in ALL areas because He IS Sovereign Lord. We “turn over,” (let go of) our bitterness, anger, feelings, desire for revenge, etc., to God and place them in HIS hands. “Vengeance is mine, says the Lord” is where we release it to BECAUSE we know God has withheld all that from us even though we justly deserved it from HIM, not because we earned His forgiveness, but because Christ took the punishment on our behalf and in our stead.

“From one whom much has been forgiven, much is expected.” Now go, and do likewise.

God bless.