wnh, it sounds like she is trying very hard to be honest about all this, which is a good sign. I agree with you that this all rings true. It is too humiliating to be fabricated. My God, how horrible it must have been to face her coworker and hear this. Hopefully, you are correct and this is her bottom.

On a side note, I know that you said she does not have a drinking problem. And perhaps not. But if she is not a frequent drinker, but can so easily black out and do things that she would never do while sober, then she probably could very easily have a problem. It takes most alcoholics years to get to that point of black out drinking. She needs to stay away from alcohol completely if her drinking is that bad already. The definition of an alcoholic is not how MUCH or how frequently they drink, but what happens when we do drink. And she clearly is not in control when she drinks, which is a problem. Just something to watch.

Ok Mel I wasn't aware of that but I understand. She is very sensitive to alcohol. 2 drinks okay, 3 drinks puts her in la-la land. And several puts her clearly out of control and irresponsible.

I am still deeply troubled by another thing. Last Monday (9 days ago) she and IC were discussing how best to reveal the sexual details of her A to me. That's good since it aimes towards honesty/openness. But then last Tuesday (8 days ago) she bought the foam. HUH!?

How can she simultaneously be taking positive steps to build our M, and also taking very destructive steps?

Or did she really have a possibly subconscious goal of trying to seduce her colleague?

I think we really need to take a long hard look at the foam issue.

WNH-

I was just re-reading your post and had come to some similar thoughts.

The whole thing in the car sounds 'unplanned'...she was drunk and foolish.

There is NOTHING about buying a can of contraceptive foam that is 'unplanned'. It's not 'sub-conscious' either...it's a premeditated act to do something. So all your issues are NOT out in the air yet.

You don't have to expect to get all of the answers right now, but at the same time you need to let your wife know that what she learned about this weekend does not answer all of the questions...being drunk ONCE does not account for all the rest of the discrepancies. And she's going to have to come clean and face up to those as well.

What's the 'plan' to work through this now? I assume MC, and NC established with ALL OM...what else? The no going out without you is a good idea too...what else? And when you start making this plan...start by listing SOME of the actions that you're going to take...and then list some of hers, and then yours, and more of hers...make sure that it's a give and take thing.

It sounds like you have a good chance of recovery here, if she'll take responsibility for her actions and start to work to make the changes that she needs to make.

Hang in there!

Tonight is our 1st group MC. Something different.

Monday WW is scheduled for IC. I don't like the idea; too much like she and IC have secrets from me. They certainly have had secrets in the past!

Q: is it a good idea for me to insist on coming to her IC (MC) session Monday? Or is our M better served if she can talk with him by herself as she wishes? Thanks!

Is the MC and her IC the same person? Might not be a bad idea if they were...at least as long as that person is pro-marriage and willing to help you BOTH fix your marriage.

Part of the 'conditions' I required for my wife and I when she didn't get on that plane and leave was for us to start MC, and for BOTH of us to start going to an IC. Our MC thought that was a great idea, and totally in support of it. Our first MC actually wasn't that bad...she just didn't know how to handle someone in the 'withdrawl' state, and so our MC with her was mostly worthless.

But...once we REALLY began to reconcile, I suggested that I drop IC and we use the gentleman I was visiting for IC as an MC instead...I dropped him as an IC because I didn't want my wife to think that we were 'in cahoots against her'...I knew he'd be impartial in MC, and it worked well. She continued on with her IC, but ended it on her own after a few months. Partially because even she could see that her IC wasn't doing anything to help her or our situation, and she felt that the IC and our old MC were chatting and teaming up against her.

I say let her go, but ask if you could possibly setup ONE session for yourself with the IC...NOT to talk about what that IC has shared with your wife or vice-versa, but so that you could get a feel for how the IC operates and so that you could perhaps do what you could do to help out.

Thx Owl. IC is the same guy as my IC and our MC. Between us we've seen him probably 30 times over 10 years.

As a MC I trust him, but as her IC I do not. She keeps coming home from IC with 'boundary-itis'; see first couple entries on page 1 of this thread.

I would like to be there to defend against his goofy boundary teachings (or WWs misunderstanding of them), and to keep things honest and open between WW and myself. There have been too many secrets over the last six months!

What are the benefits of WW seeing IC without me? I can't think of any.

Why should I tolerate more secrets between them, just when we've gotten some honesty going?

STD test came back negative; no STDs. And she's in her cycle, so presumably not pregnant. I wasn't really too fearful of either, but it's nice to know.

After mentioning the 'secrets' fear to WW and IC they agreed I can come along - both have pledged to keep no secrets from me. IC says that's always been his position.

Our first group MC last night was okay. Mostly WW reiterated her unhappiness over my control behaviors in the history of the M. I understand her view, and I admit to - and sincerely regret - a few times I've tried to use coercions. Factually she is greatly overstating the frequency of those. But I'm sure that she feels it happened very frequently. And I failed her by behaving so that she could feel that way.

wnh, glad to see you are making some progress and the STD test came back negative.

You have been through alot over the last few weeks so I am really impressed with you strength and determination to get your W back. You are a great example of what a BS should be.

Thanks for all your support and I keep praying for your happy recovery.

Thx for the kind words HTW and best wishes to you.

I think we're in recovery, but it's tough at the beginning.

WW is trying to get her self-destructive tendencies under control, and thinks she has a lot of work to do in that direction. She doesn't want anything from me, she just wants to work on herself.

OTOH I need a lot from her right now, but she doesn't have much to give. It's straight out of SAA; where both spouses have a hard time at the beginning of recovery. We're going MC and group MC. Hope they will eventually help.

I'd be grateful for any suggestion..

wnh, I believe you are on the right track, my only concern is that the MC is truly helpful and not harmful. Is this the same C who encouraged your W to set selfish boundaries to the detriment of your marriage? Unfortunately, many C's cause more harm than they do good. Do you have any reason to believe this MC will not harm your M?

Finding a good counselor: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi7100_counselor.html

Thanks Mel. Same guy. Could be MC miscommunicated, or WW misunderstood something sensible from MC.

I think we have an agreement that I will be at tomorrow's session. I plan to make it clear that some flawed 'boundaries' are injurious to our M. Also that there should be no more secrets. Also to try to communicate my needs re recovery such as honesty/openness/logins&passwords, phonelog etc.

Good talk last night. Here's the story. Note WW is relying on info from her colleague, and I'm relying on info from WW. I believe WW told it straight; she can be pretty transparent when she's lying.

As colleague was giving her a ride home she started masturbating in the car. Kind of a Girls Gone Wild I guess. She's not sure if she removed her jeans and panties or not (too embarrassed to ask her colleague for too many details). She thinks she did not remove her shirt or bra; because it would have been too difficult to get the bra back on in her drunken state. It sounds like he was put off a bit by her exhibition; WW thinks she was upset that he didn't respond. He didn't touch her, and they didn't have sex. She is humiliated that she could have done that to herself and her colleague, and both are embarrassed that they have to live with it. They agreed neither would ever speak of it again with each other or with others.

Although it could be a fabrication, as I said I believe that story. There's still a mystery. Colleague did not know WW had lost her panties; he will look in his car. So it's not clear where or how she lost them. Our local (female) police officer hypothesized that sometimes very drunk women leave panties in the bar bathroom since it's too much trouble to put them back on.

Plainly WW has problems; she is determined to understand why she acted that way, and has scheduled visits to IC to work through it. I may accompany. She also decided that her immediate 1st step is to stop going to bars unless I'm there as a chaperone. Also she and I will be going to group MC for awhile to try to figure it out.

The experience has been scary and confusing for her, and possibly cathartic for the marriage, as a bottoming-out experience. Although there's a lot of bad news here, the good news is her willingness to work on the M, and our humility, openness and honesty. And that's really really good news for us. We feel we are drawing closer to each other now. Although we are not back in the same bedroom yet, we hope to get to that point soon. We are reaching out to each other and plan to work together to build a new better M.

ANYONE WHO COULD DO THIS WHILE BEING MARRIED SHOULD BE IMMEDIATELY HANDED DIVORCE PAPERS. THIS IS SICK. SHE DOES NOT NEED COUNSELING, SHE NEEDS TO BE DIVORCED AND MAKE HER OWN SICK WAY IN LIFE.

Alright, StellaKat, his WS is hardly worse than most around here. He has just as much chance of saving his marriage as anyone else. Lighten up.

Thx Mel.

Worse than this?????? Well, I better not read any more about these WS then.... i would get too angry and hurt for the BS'S. These WS act worse than any animal. yet they get away with the behavior since the BS allows them to come back home and accepts them again and again.

Stella, ALL adultery is bad, no one is denying that. That does not automatically mean you give up on a person, though.

Now, do you have something constructive to offer? Moral outrage is nice, but it won't help him save his marriage.

WW just informed me she will attend a conference tomorrow and Wed. There is a very high likelihood OM will be there (he's in the same industry). She says she has to attend, but I don't believe it since she did not go last year. She says I need to trust her.

I want to ask her to not go, in order to maintain NC. She is still attracted to him, and I am fearful.

She also informed me she plans to go out by herself Thursday night. I don't like that either, and particularly not when combined with the OM threat Wed.

Suggestions on how to deal with this? Comments?

Well, my suggestion would be to let her know that you understand if she has to go to this conference, but at the same time let her know how you're going to be feeling about it. Ask her what she can do to help you feel better...ask her how she plans on managing the risk, and on how she's going to help to minimize your worry and fear over this event. (she might make plans to group up with some OTHER friends that have nothing to do with OM while she's there, she might call you on every break to let you know how things are going, etc...). Offer suggestions, but ask HER to think of ways that she can help work through this issue.

On the Thursday nite...talk with her but let her know that given what's been happening, there is no way that you feel she should do this anymore. Didn't she agree to that already?? That she wouldn't be going out like this anymore? Then remind her of that, and let her know that you'd be glad to go out WITH her (find a babysitter) or would prefer that she didn't go out at all...remind her that this is WAY too soon after what has gone on for her to trust herself...let alone expect you to trust her. If she goes out by herself, this is a major step in the wrong direction...let her know that bluntly.

It's not safe for her to go out like this anymore...perhaps in the future after everything has settled down (reality is, once she's settled down and is able to act like a rational adult, she won't be asking to do this, but don't tell her that). Bluntly...she's got to get her stuff together now...and once she has helped re-build the marriage and your trust in her, you'll be free to consider letting her go out on her own.

Personally, I wouldn't agree to her going out at all right now...unless it was with you. She's not out of the danger zone yet, and it's VERY likely to be a repeat of last week.

My thoughts.