As it played out OM was not at the event, so WW did not see him.

WW and I are still not seeing the trust issue the same way; we really need to discuss that soon. Previously she'd tentatively offered her passwords and phone log, but hasn't yet delivered on that offer. I think she will give them to me if I ask again, but we'll see. It's very important as a trust-building exercise.

It's not about control, it's about building trust. I hope she will understand that. The very last thing I want to do now is to control her, I am determined to not let myself exercise control or coercion particularly since she finds those so offensive and troubling. I don't want to cause her those pains.

BIG victory today! WW has been in the guest room, but today said she would like to sleep in our bedroom tonight. If so it will be our 1st night in same bed since I exposed 10 weeks ago. We'd been out to hear some great music (Alejandro Escovedo is terrific), had a fun time, and it seems to have warmed up her heart a bit.

I think we're making progress on recovery, but ducking some really key issues (e.g. the foam). When I start the conversation in any substantive direction, WW gets defensive so no progress. I guess it's best to tread lightly, and give it time.

I have to reiterate that I care deeply about our M, and that she is the most important thing to me.

The volatility is intense. What a change from 4 days ago!

Did WW go out last nite as she'd planned?

It sounds awesome that she's talking about moving back to your room...that SOUNDS like progress.

But...if you're too scared to ask her to take the steps she'd already agreed to in re-building trust, that's NOT progress. Especially if she'd agreed to already.

Be careful that she doesn't attempt to spin her wish to move back into the room with a request to do something tonite that will be very questionable...such as a suggestion that she 'go out with some friends' or something similar tonite. Often you'll see WS's use this kind of negotiation ploy...they'll 'offer' to do something, then attempt to use this as a way to convince the BS to not to rock the boat while they suddenly do something that they KNOW the BS doesn't want...just to force the BS to accept this in order to get the little 'benny' they'd already offered up.

Be glad that you're making headway, but be cautious too.

No she didn't go out as planned; she went out with me instead.

Thx Owl. Will be alert. But I don't think that's it. I believe WW genuinely feels a bit closer to me right now.

How do I feel about her? Hmmmm... I'd need 50 pages, and still wouldn't be able to get it out in any coherent fashion. Lots of love, lots of respect. Admiration for her as a wife, mother, and human being. And many other warm feelings. Putting aside her A for a moment, she really is a terrific person. But I also have complaints. I will need to dump or air some of these before they become resentments and poison recovery.

I've tried to explain to WW that I need for her to take responsibility for the A without tying it to anything anyone else (including me) did. I think she hears and understands - but doesn't agree since she repeatedly ties her A to my historical behavior towards her. Just last night she did that AGAIN in MC. The flavor is 'BH has been such a (whatever) in the last 13 years that I had an A'. I've been in MB long enough to know that few readers here will agree with that reasoning. But WW just doesn't get it. Like many (or most) people, she has a hard time taking responsibility for her errors.

I would much prefer that we each take responsibility for our own. I've clearly and repeatedly admitted my errors and taken full responsibility. Why can't she? And how can I get rid of my damaging feelings if WW won't do her part to help?

Does your MC let her get away with this 'BH has been such a XXX in the last 13 years that I had an affair'??

A good MC should politely remind her that her unhappiness in your marriage may have lead her to make the choice that she did, BUT...she needs to stop trying to justify her actions, and take responsibility for the choice of her affair. PERIOD. Next time you're in MC and she does this, take exactly that tack and look at the MC to back you up on this...it's pretty point blank.

My wife did the same thing...and she got seriously BENT with our first MC not letting her get away with blaming me for the affair...but eventually she did accept that it was her choice overall.

You probably won't be able to get rid of your damaged feelings for a long time friend...realize it normally takes about two years to recover from an affair...if both parties are working hard at it. It will take longer for those that are NOT actively working at it...but it's likely that in time she will finally get clear of the fog and become more able to think like a human being.

Just hang in there.

And now she's given me a very nice birthday gift. That wouldn't have happened if my bday had been 2 months ago! So now I"m sure we're in recovery.

This is bloody amazing, so far it's all worked out like MB said it would. Incredible.

WW is still fairly chilly and distant. Some days just a tad warmer. Possibly a veeerrry slow warming trend; almost indecipherable. She says she's not sure she can trust me, after all she feels that I had hurt her during our M. If she were to open her heart to me, I might "hurt her again". Good cripes you'd think I was the one who had the A.

I don't really follow her mindset. Re her A, I've been kind and have not hurt her. No yelling, no LBs just being my usual self. Not getting it re the possibility I'd "hurt her again". She really should realize that I'm trying very hard to provide a safe caring environment for her. And that those control episodes she keeps referring to are in the past.


New topic: She's going with her sister on a 5-day trip to visit relatives; leaving me home with the boys. I have no fears that she will see other men while she's gone; too much family around.

What's the status on contact with OM? Or on her going out and drinking, or anything along those lines. One concern I'd have about her being with her family...will she be going out drinking or anything like that?

I hope she does come around...this is when you continue your plan A as best you can...meet her needs, make sure she knows that your sincere in your desire to heal your marriage.

You're doing great friend...my prayers are with you.

Thanks for the words Owl.

WW admits to a few attempts to contact OM since I exposed 3rd Sep. Late Sep she left him a voice message at his work, and early Oct she sent him a text msg. He didn't respond. WW recently said 'OM never cared about me, he's an a**hole". I think OM has really dumped her at least for now.

But I think if OM were to change his mind we would be right back in the soup since WW still misses him. That's a real risk since OM's own M is in bad shape; he and his W are not meeting each others' needs AT ALL. I told OMW she should come to MB - partly as a strategic move since the better OMs M, the safer is my M - but I doubt she came here.

Man this would be tough if the A were long-running and mutual - I am extremely impressed with people that have dug their M our of that situation. Tough enough with a short-lived and possibly one-sided infatuation!

WW is somewhat remorseful. Last night - along with the stuff above - she also said to me 'how are YOU doing, after all I'm the one who committed the ultimate betrayal on you' or something like that. It's nice she recognizes that, but I'm sorry she has to bear that burden of guilt. More than anything I want to put this behind us, and to forgive her so that she truly FEELS forgiven! I want my wife to be happy and content with herself and our M.

And I want for her to forgive me for the wrongs I've done her - so that I truly feel forgiven. That will be difficult for her. And I want us both make a fresh start in a new better M.

To address your other question, there will be 7 extended family members around. Four are siblings of WWs. 3 of her sibs are solid. The fourth not so much; I do not trust her judgement - nor does my WW. But with so many family members constantly around, I don't think there will be an opportunity for WW to go astray. Talking with her siblings might even help her to clear her head a bit, IF she is willing to talk about her A. I believe she's only revealed the A to one sib.



FWIW, one of her parents was wayward when my WW was a young child - say 35 or 40 years ago - also 3 of WW's 4 siblings have been betrayed. One of those remained married, another divorced and the third is seperated. What does it mean, how does WWs family history apply to our sitch? Who knows..

I can't understand why WW feels she isn't yet ready to open her heart to me and trust me, is it some kind of psychological thing? Aside from exposing, I've given her NO reason to mistrust me since long long before her A started.

Thx again for any comments.

Well, tell her that point blank. Ask her what you've done to earn her mistrust, given your history together? Don't let her just come back with a quick, angry retort...make her THINK about that before she responds.

And then ask her what you should have done different...assuming she comes back with anything. And finally, ask her what she needs to see that would show trust.

And...again, I wouldn't argue with her on any of this...calmly sit and listen, even if you think it's all hoooey. And THINK about your responses before you give them. And when you do respond, calmly and quietly point out to her what she's done to YOUR trust of her...and that you've thought about what she could have done different, what she can do now to regain that trust, and you're willing to extend that to her. ONE MORE TIME...DO THIS CALMLY...NO YELLING, NO ANGRY TONES...talk, don't expound.

Maybe end the conversation with.."Well, given how hugely you've destroyed my trust in you, but I'm still willing to work with you to rebuild that trust, you might consider giving me that same opportunity.". Calmly...and then head to bed for the night, not waiting on her. Let her think about that.

Just something for you to think about.

Things are pretty civilized lately. Still a bit cool, and WW is still in the guest bedroom. But we're talking about issues and batting about 500; 50% blowups, 50% successful conversations that get something accomplished.

Thanksgiving was pretty good, just our little immediate family. We managed a nice turkey dinner and pleasant evening watching 'Finding Nemo'. I'm very grateful for that.

We may get to spend some time together tonight.

She bought John Eldridge's 'Wild at Heart', and she and I both read God bless her for that. Great book. After reading it, WW said - with some urgency - that she wants to be rescued.

Well I definitely feel like I'm in there fighting dragons and trying to rescue her (and our M). The dragons are all emotions and characteristics of human nature; like Pride, Vanity, Stubbornness, etc. They are tough little buggers and hard to keep at bay. Meanwhile WW sometimes does things that effectively build the castle walls higher to make it even more difficult for me to rescue her.

It feels like we're recovering, at a moderate pace.

I think it's time to change her name from WW to FWW.
Two recent FWW comments:
- "Thanks for putting up with my nonsense"
- "Thank you for not leaving me"

So I feel pretty sure that things are going in the right direction. Next step: affair-proofing the M. Lots of love, care and protection for FWW.

I am ready but still not able to trust her. Trying, but I guess it will take some time.

Hey, wnh...

Glad to see you are having some success in your efforts. Just a word of caution, this will take it's own sweet time. She'll have to go through a full blown withdrawal from her feeling for the OM, and that can take some time. This is the time for you to continue your Plan A efforts in every way, and let her know you are her "safe haven". As you see the fog clearing out, you may be able to get her to talk more about the A, but don't push too hard. This is a touchy /feely time, and there is no prescribed way to move forward. This is a time when you have to rely on your wits and instincts. Keep filling her LB$$ and don't expect any of your needs to be met for a while.

Glad the scenario is beginning to give you some hope! Take every little scrap of hope you can get, and use it to keep your resolve. Tough times, I know, but you can do it!

Best wishes,
SD

Thanks SD. Great to hear from you. Hope things are well with your situation.

I understand about the timing. My hope is that since the A was brief (<3 months) and kind of one-sided, the withdrawal and recovery can be faster than normal. But that's my hope. OTOH (F)WW is still sleeping in the other room, so maybe that's a sign this will take some time..I'm prepared for a long drawn-out scenario. I care deeply for her and want our M to endure for a long time and be filled with happiness and blessings for both of us.

Having a difficult time finding appropriate times for those hard talks. When we're getting along I don't want to chance ruining the mood. And when we're NOT getting along I don't want to risk driving her over the deep end. So there's no good time to talk about the issues.

How do others handle that puzzle?

Continue to romance her as you did when you first met. The first order of business is to find those things that will help you two reconnect, like you first did. Think hard about things she loves to do, and do them, without the relationship talks. There is plenty of time for them to come, and better if she feels comfortable enough to initiate them.

Try to do whatever you do in a subtle way, without any grandstanding, so it appears to be "normal". Listen carefully for clues as to what will please her, or if comfortable enough, ask her what will please her.

We went to a couple of comedy nights, and it's hard not to have fun if the talent is good. We even tried a few things we'd never done... coffee house's that have jazz performances, just making/taking the time to be together, and keeping it light, and exploring the way towards togetherness. Bring her a single long stem rose every other week or so.... rent her favorite movie and order in Chinese and spend an evening just watching TV.

I know it sucks to have been the offended party, and still have to do ALL the freaking work for the longest time, without expecting ANY help or appreciation. My wife pretty much followed my lead in all of this, then after a month or so, began having ideas of her own of where we might go for an evening. I even had to sit through a couple of "chick flicks", my sacrifice for the cause!

No one thing you do will make any difference at all. It is the ensuing "pile" of thing you have done that begin to dent their armor.

Keep Love Buster's out of your marriage. Never speak in a negative way about the OM. Stay upbeat and positive all the time. You will know when it's "time" for R talks. And when that time comes, stay cool, keep the R talk short and emotion free, thank her for her willingness to communicate with your, and remind her that you care for her.

One other thing... No "I love you's" until she's defogged, and beginning to reengage in the marriage. You can "care" for her deeply, she can mean the "world" to you, but hold off on the ILY's until she earns it.

Best wishes,
SD

Don't know how your house schedule works, but in our case we managed to 'sorta' schedule time for our talks.

Our kids are all teens, and we required them to be headed to bed about 10pm on school nites. Sooo...my wife and I would take the dogs for a walk starting around 9:30 or so. And we'd deliberately save our 'talks' for then. Worked out kind of nice. It was dark, so we could be honest with each other, and even cry if we needed to. But...it was also public and late at nite which limited the chance for yelling fighting too. It kind of forced us to behave civilly.

Our MC also suggested that we schedule our talks, and limit them in duration to prevent either of us from being battered down. To me, it makes sense to try to structure the time somewhat...keep it limited in duration, and that way you both know that the pain won't go on forever.

The "old me" wouldn't have wanted to stay up late...I always preferred heading to bed around 10 myself. But, since I couldn't sleep anyway, what difference did it make if I was up talking or laying there tossing and turning? I learned to change my sleep schedule a bit, and it was well worth it.

Tonight is her firm's Christmas party, spouses not invited. She recognizes the risks and has promised that her friends will keep watch over her, and that she will stick with beers since they're safer than wine or shots. Given her experiences a month ago when drinking with her colleagues I am fearful; but am trying to be trusting.


More importantly: I fear she has a new boyfriend.
Last Friday WW and I went to dinner with friends that I trust. Then I came home, while she went on with her friends to see a band. Fine. She got home about 2AM, then I'm sure she made some calls before coming to bed. I checked her cell phone and they were to a number I do not recognize. I'm very uncomfortable; I think the calls may signal a new A, or perhaps meeting a new guy. When I asked her, she denied any phone calls. So my stressmeter maxed out again.

Then Monday in MC I brought up the need for transparency in phone usage. WW has done several things in other areas to improve transparency, for which I'm grateful. But she thinks 75% transparent is enough, and wants to keep her phone calls private. In order to build trust I think we need her phone calls to also be transparent. MC agrees. The call privacy is a big red flag. What is there to hide?

Last night in group MC I brought it up again. That time she admitted making those phone calls. The time wasn't right for details, but soon I would like to know what happened. Even if it's a bad answer (e.g. 'I made a mistake, I met a guy I liked at the music, he gave me his number and I called him') I would much prefer a bad answer to dishonesty and secrecy. A mistake won't kill a marriage of two good people, but lies and secrecy will.

There are also a few other things that are making me very uncomfortable. E.g. I found a new pack of condoms hidden (will mention those to her soon). And other things. I fear she has a new boyfriend.

This morning she left me her cell phone and the contraceptive foam, saying the phone wasn't worth the trouble and that she didn't need the foam anymore. Not sure exactly what it means - it's not the phone that's important, but rather her openness and honesty.

If she doesn't need the foam anymore, does that just mean that she's switched to those condoms I found? What's going on here?

Will try to discuss with her when she's ready. Also want to discuss the other things that make me very uncomfortable.

I care deeply about her, and want this to work. In order for it to work we need honesty and openness. It had felt like we were making some progress, but now it feels very much at risk.

wnh,

I haven't seen your thread for a little while. I guess that is why they call this a roller coaster ride. Just when you think things are getting better...down you go.

Try to look at that way. It is part of the process and over time you hope it works out.

Let us know how she can explain the condoms.

WNH-

There will NEVER be a right time to discuss the phone calls, the condoms, etc... You need to recognize that now. I have a bad habit of being a conflict avoider at times myself. But...you really need to learn to hold you ground and fight when you need to.

You should have pushed the issue last nite in MC. It's often hard for a WS to lie to you...they often feel 'justified' in it at times...but often it's actually harder for them to lie to the MC than to you. Especially if the MC is smart enough to pick up on what's going on and work with you to get the answers. Do NOT put off asking questions about this kind of stuff.

I would point blank confront her with condoms in hand. Same thing with the cell phone...write down the number, and the exact time of the calls. And flat out tell her to stop lying...you KNOW that she made the calls, so quit the BS and start being honest and up front.

If I found condoms in my house today, after all that we've been through and as much as I love my wife, she'd have one minute to give me the flat truth on the spot, or I'd be out the door and she wouldn't see me again. Don't give her time to come up with a story...see, she KNOWS you're going to ask about the calls, so she's got time to come up with some kind of BS story for you. But if you confront all at one shot, and don't give her time to think about it, it's a good bet to force her to tell the truth.

I'm sorry my friend...it's a Friday thing with me I guess, but I reach a point sometimes where I think that you just gotta flat out lay down some serious consequences for continued lying and constantly doing hurtful things to your spouse.

On the party thing...how about having her give you a list of names of who will be there...along with phone numbers to their cell phones. So that you can randomly call any of these people and find out the truth? Or get a sitter for the kids tonite and stake out the parking lot?

I don't know where your wife works, but it seems to me that things like this are RARELY mandatory, nor do they really expect people who don't drink and such to put much more than a token appearance in. My company has these...I'm rarely there longer than an hour since I don't drink and don't care much for hanging out in crowds like this. Why can't your wife simply spend an hour there, and have you pick her up in the parking lot???

There are tons of options here...the trick is to think of them and to show your wife that she has no reason NOT to do them.

Prayers are with you friend...it seems to me that something needs to be done to knock her off of her perch so that she starts remembering that she's a married lady...not a teenaged frat house party girl.

IT looks like your wife's heart, mind, and soul have already left the marriage. She does not seem to care about you but rather wants to do anything she wants even if it tears apart the marriage.

Unless you want to talk to her about having an "open marriage" where she can freely go outside the marriage for sex and male attention, (but you already know you cant trust her with safe sex or good birth control, especially when she is drunk) you might have to do something stronger now to protect yourself here.

We talked about my 2 recent concerns in MC today.

One of my concerns was that 10 nights ago she had received one and made 3 calls at 2AM to a number I didn't know. At the time WW denied it. The 2nd time I asked her, she said the calls were from a colleague who had called to see if she got home safely. Today I asked a 3rd time and her explanation is that someone had gotten her cell number by accident, and that it took several calls for her to iron it out. Not easy to believe.

Another concern of mine was that there had been several calls over a 6-week span to another # I do not know. She said it was a friend at the bike shop, and that she and he had talked bikes quite a bit and had gone riding once. But since then he's moved to another city. Also difficult to believe. If it was so innocent then why didn't WW tell me at the time?


Counting from the way WW tells it, to date there has been one A, plus some sort of drunken one-night sexual connection of some sort. That's by WW's count.

Counting the two above my way, you get the one A, plus the one-night sexual connection of some sort, plus the second 6-week EA or PA#2 with another guy, plus the incident of her likely giving out her cell number for the 2AM calls.

Not very confidence-inspiring. I think I need to give her some feedback on this.