Based on what I have read about your scenario your wife’s problems are not related to her marriage to you. So would she be better off in ten years if she divorced? No. Not if she does not resolve her problems she will not be better off. Mind you – with unresolved issues she will not be better off with you either. So – either she does some serious soul-searching or she is going to be miserable – with or without you.

Sometimes the kindest thing we can do is let them fall. Too bad I never found that strenght in myself or perhaps I wouldn't be divorcing. You sound like a good man.

Thanks bigger.

Faithful do you think your WH will be a better person for having been divorced? I'm sorry, I'm sure it's painful and I feel for you. If you can project a few years down the road, do you think your WH will be better for it?

I don't know. It is possible if he does not just go from one relationship to another. I think the only way he will be better for it is if he really is forced to grow up and be responsible. I hope he will be a better dad.

FYI, my own father who was D'd by my mom who was a WW DID become a better person for the D. However it took many, many years and a lot of pain on his part. He was not a bad man, just not a great H. He has always been a decent father and a terrific grandfather.

WNH-

Do you REALLY think that your wife would be better off if you just backed away and released her so that she could run off and continue the kind of behavior that she's displayed these past several weeks? How could that POSSIBLY be good for her??!?!

Sorry friend...IMHO, the best thing for her at this point is a strong wake up call and some serious growing up on her part to her ACTUAL age...not freedom to go out and act as though she has no responsibilities to anyone at all..even herself.

I think he has other options he can explore before he jumps into D. I posted this to his other thread.

Were I in your shoes, I wouldn't be so quick to jump to the big D, but would try and find a C with an operating mind and functional set of morals who can guide you out of this sewer. I think Steve Harley would be immensely helpful in your situation. And perhaps he would suggest trying Plan B for awhile instead of Plan D. Just know this, he won't waste a minute of your time and will be worth every penny.

You cannot change your W, but you can possibly motivate her to want to change. Counseling with SH is much cheaper and less painful than D so I would try that first and see what he thinks. He may very well recommend D, but if there is any hope here, he might be able to help you capitalize on it.

Today I found a restaurant card with OM#1's phone number on the back, also a second number I did not recognize. Confronted WW with it in MC tonight, she said it was from way back when A#1 was still going. Then why was it on top of her bureau today? I'd never seen it before, and had snooped a fair amount. I think she just got it; probably had lunch with OM#1 yesterday.

In MC I also asked WW what was the second number, she said she didn't know it was a long time ago and she'd forgotten. So tonight I did some research and found the phone number was registered to WW's name!

After finding out I confronted WW again. She said she'd had the phone long ago while A#1 was still going. And that the reason she'd denied knowing the number was that she'd forgotten what was her secret phone number. I suppose that could be so, but I've been trained recently to be cynical about these things.

I asked her to see the bills showing that she'd gotten the phone long ago, and that she hadn't used it recently. What's your bet on whether she can show that?

This is unbelievable. A#1 for 3+months, then A#2 for 6 weeks, then a ONS, then renewed A#1. Good grief. I don't see how we can survive this one.

wnh, I think you need to accept that this is a way of life with her. Most affairs that we see around here are aberrations of character brought on by marital problems. This is not an aberration of character, but a way of life she has chosen. This is her character. She has chosen to live like a single swinger and not a married woman. She is lying to you about it because she does not want to give up the benefits of marriage while she cats around.

Were I in your shoes, I would cease the Plan A activities, except exposure, because she is only exploiting it to further her way of life. Trying to meet her needs is only enabling her. I would expose her to her family, your family, her employer, the OM's wife, and any close friends. Then I would plan on going into Plan B.

Have you given any thought to my suggestion about calling Steve Harley?

Well, if there seems to be no hope, why not try Plan B?

Beneficial - if YOU are an unrepentant unfaithful spouse, bent upon adultery in direct and willful disobedience to God. This assumes that SHE is NOT a WW herself, but is faithful spouse who is the victim of an adulterous husband.

Not beneficial - When SHE is the willing adulteress. Willful disobedience to God is a MAJOR problem and NEVER "beneficial."

Would you like a pamphlet that our MC gave us when we began counseling? If so, drop me an email at mbforeverhers@yahoo.com and I'll send it to you. It's called; "What Do You Do When Your Marriage Turns Sour?"

God bless.

Mel I was thinking the same thing about expanding the circle to whom I expose and the amount of detail I give out. Will see what those phone bills look like first, to see if WW is being honest about the secret phone being long ago.

believer if the phone bills should say the secret phone was used recently then I'll need to do something drastic. Not sure if Plan B will work with her in the same house. Any other ideas aside from plan D?

Thanks ForeverHers. Email coming your way.

WW brought home the secret cell phone and all the bills except the earliest. The bills support her story that she hadn't used it since I exposed to OMW#1 early Sept. She seems to have used it only late July and early Aug.

So - in a secretive deceitful way - she seems to have been partially honest for a change. I'm going to throw a party to celebrate.

This seems to put us back where we were before the secret phone discovery, except with an additional big secret/lie to toss on top of the already enormous stack from A#1. I'm sure there will be others too. E.g. she still maintains A#1 had sexual activity but no intercourse. Suuuure. Do I look that gullible? Earlier this year I may have been; but no more. So that shoe is yet to drop. Plus there will probably be more, both from A#1 and A#2. I foresee bumps and more bumps in the road, interspersed with huge potholes.

Logically I guess I should back up the clock two days and feel almost the same as I did before discovering the secret phone. One additional old revelation from A#1 shouldn't make me feel much different than I did 2 days ago. But I do feel different. Maybe in a few days I'll be able to see this more reasonably.

I think we're in recovery. If she would just quit adding problems onto our old problems. Give me just one month of no lying/secrets/boyfriends and I think we can be on the way. But boy do we need that clean month right now to take that initial step towards recovery.

How do BS cope with the many bumps like this that will undoubtedly come up during recovery? What's the recommended way to cope with these things?

wnh, your W needs some serious psychological help and don't understand how you think she is in recovery. Until she gets the help she needs to find out why she wants to screw everything that walks, this will happen again and again. You catch her, she feels "bad," and once she has you played and right back where she wants you, she goes back to ******. This will continue to happen until she gets the help she needs, I am sad to say.

Mel and others: have you seen the soft heart before? How can I understand the difference between A#1 (very hard bitter heart and rewiting of marital history) and A#2 (soft heart, loving, kind, wanting to make our M work)?

I would really like to understand the source of the difference; would be grateful if someone can shed some light.

Well, it could be that she knows that if she doesn't change her tactics she's going to reach the end of her rope with you.

Right now, were I in your shoes, I'd proceed VERY cautiously. If you really do want to work things out with her, then do so. ON YOUR TERMS...NOT HERS.

You've tried doing things her way...look at where you're at now.

If she's honest about wanting to work it out, there should be no more fighting things that make complete sense in repairing your marriage. She should agree to pretty much whatever steps you ask...provided that they DO make sense or you can provide a clear explanation on how they'll benifit your marriage.

What I mean is the standard MB mantra for marriages...POJA, complete transparency to each other, spending time together, MC while working through this ordeal, NC of any kind with ANY of the OM's, etc...

If she's unwilling to do so, then tell her that this tells you that she's NOT ready to work on the marriage.

And quite bluntly, you need to sit down and make some quiet decisions on your own for your OWN next steps. What will you do if she does agree to all of this and sticks to it? What will you do if she agrees to it, but then reneges? What will you do if she flat refuses to things that you're not willing to compromise on?

At this point, she needs to relinquish control of the situation over to you...and YOU need to turn over the whole thing to a QUALIFIED MC (SH comes to mind...LOL) to help the both of you recover from this.

That's my take on things. My wife fought me tooth and nail during the weeks of her withdrawl...but when she made her choice to stay, she also made the choice to do what needed to happen to rebuild our marriage. She wasn't always happy with some of the things we had to do (at first), but as time went on, she began to see more and more WHY we were doing what we were doing to fix things.

Hang in there friend.

Thanks Owl. That's a fair representation of where we left it recently. WW made a firm commitment to the M, including complete honesty and openness, no secrets, no male friends I don't know, no flirting. And I'm sure she meant it.

Then 2 days later she flirted on the phone with a mutual friend. They've always flirted, I'm sure it doesn't mean anything. But I'm amazed she ALREADY broke her commitment. I confronted her on it, she rolled her eyes.

I called A#2 an affair, and she rolled her eyes and said it wasn't like that. She said the only reason she'd previously agreed it was an affair was because I'd made her agree it was an affair.

Owl you suggested:
"POJA, complete transparency to each other, spending time together, MC while working through this ordeal, NC of any kind with ANY of the OM's, etc..." WW has agreed to all of this (save POJA).

I will keep reiterating the terms to really drive the point home. Soon she will realize that I really mean it. When she comes to that point, she'll have to decide whether or not she can live with the terms.

What other terms should I insist upon?

Whatever terms you feel are needed in order for you to rebuild your trust in her again, in order to ensure that your marriage is sound, whatever terms you feel will help the both of you regain and maintain the love for each other.

The ones I listed are the standard ones that most can agree with. If she can't agree with POJA, then ask her what HER plan is to solve disagreemants like the one where she was flirting with the friend??? She might not like that one...so what's her recommendation for how you both should deal with issues like that. If she's got one, listen to it fairly and give an honest assessment...if it's fair and workable, why not go for it? If it's not, point out the problems with it, and try to negotiate a working solution.

As far as her not agreeing about affair #2...I'm no expert, but I'd point out to her that an affair isn't about sex...it's about secrecy, deception, lies, feelings and emotions being shared outside of the marital union...not just sex, but ANYTHING that should have been shared only with your spouse. And anything that one spouse deliberately hides from the other that has to do with someone outside of the marriage.

I'd also say that it's not a requirement to 'educate' her on the 2nd affair right now...let the counselor do that when you get to that point. It was many months after we'd begun to reconcile before my wife realized that she had indeed started to have an online EA with someone BEFORE OM...she argued and fought that what happened with OM was different...but months later, she was far enough away from the situation to look at it a little more openly...and could see what I was talking about.

It sounds to me like you've got a cease fire going at the moment...but I still caution you to be careful...she does NOT sound repentent or remorseful, which are pretty much required in order for true recovery to happen.

I've been reading your entire journey. Two things--one, this quote:

...was because I'd made her agree it was an affair.

This was a critical first step in my marriage recovery...consistent recognition by both of us that no one at anytime has the power to make anyone do anything. She can say, "I don't believe it was an affair and I know you believe differently." None of this "You made me angry...made me change my mind...made me feel unloved." Not just semantics but ownership of our beliefs, thoughts and feelings. I consider that change the most critical to changing the dynmaics of a relationship. For both spouses. That's the only path to getting, "I chose to have an affair and therefore, know I will not make that choice again." Long road to it, but honestly, it begins here.

I know you've been studious, caring and working on your own issues, trying to save your marriage with all your might. I don't mean this as a put-down. This is the first thing my H and I POJA'd...no "you make/made me"s. XYZ statements "When this happened, and you did this, I felt this..."

Also, the respect thing..."I will keep reiterating the terms to really drive the point home. Soon she will realize that I really mean it. When she comes to that point, she'll have to decide whether or not she can live with the terms."

I find repetition makes things lose potency. When you're trying to reverse babble your WS (and you might be there), then it's essential. When you're attempting to be believed, credible and understood, the only I thing I hear when it's repeated many times is "I'm not being heard. I'm not getting the response I want."

I find, "I believe you know what I need from you." "I believe I've expressed my requirements." That respects the listener. The twins of bad communication--stating things that make you nuts and the disrespect of "if only I could say it just right." Go hand in hand. Assumptions. She just hasn't heard me, otherwise she'd comply. If I say it enough times, I can't be told I never said it. Or didn't say it right (in the right way, or at the right time).

You feel you need to drive it home because...then you will see that she will realize you mean it. You don't feel heard, understood or taken seriously?

I believe she has decided to live with the terms as they are right now. She doesn't consider flirting to be a threat to your marriage (same old friend, same pattern). I don't think you believe in keeping the old patterns, but seriously want new ones. "I feel discounted when you flirt with ____."

Sorry to be so long...how well are you doing for yourself, speaking of your own thoughts and feelings? Really sounds to me like you're focused on her--stopping the bad behavior, the pain for you. Natural place to focus on. The taking care of yourself, stating, asking (without being dependent on the results), respecting...was/is really tough, but the more I tend to it, the better it gets.

Praying for your strength and insight. Just wanted you to know it is possible to get there. Through God all things are possible.

LA

Thanks Owl and LovingAnyway. Your points are well-made. I was mistaken; I think 'driving the points home' is not the right approach.

Things changed today. I sent WW an email at her work, asking what commitments she is freely willing to make me, with emphasis that it is vital at this time to have whatever commitments she can make. Her answer was that she is not able to work on the marriage now.

Whoa. That response was completely unexpected, and changes my heart entirely. First instinct is to call the D attorney and get it over with. I'll sleep on it. I'm very troubled by her inability to communicate a commitment. What does it mean? That she's really NOT committed? That she still has an A going on?

There was only one mildly positive thing in her response; a statement that she's not doing anything wrong right now. No promises, no commitments, no nothing.

Wow...

I think that my response would have been "Then why are you still here?".

My wife was in that mode for about 3-4 weeks tops...and during that time I actually did help her fill out apps for jobs, got her apartment listing information, etc...with the thought that she'd be moving out in a trial seperation right here in our area. She was NOT ready to leave to live with OM in another state without her kids. But...she did make some effort to work on the M as well. And she had her hateful moments, but they were no where near as extreme as most of what I've heard on this site.

Honestly, given all that you've been through, I'd make it clear to her that if she's not remorseful for what she's done and she's not willing to work on the marriage, then she should seriously consider life on her own...completely and totally without you in it. That was the 'ultimatum' I gave my wife at least.