I am sooo torn on this one......

can you call the harleys....?

there is no doubt that in reality this is just one more blatantly disrespectful act on his part...

the canada trip
the lies
the in your face CRAP

that's why I am so concerned that kicking him out is what he wants...and certainly he is entitled to what he wants...but not by gaslighting you into forcing the hand...

he KNOWS he is acting crappily........
thats part of his scheme...

that's why part of me say.......confuse the [email]he@@[/email] and I do mean [email]he@@[/email] out of him...
but it would take great strength and savvy.....great strength....

but to me it is very attractive and empowering...



to be honest if I couldn't take the coy toying route...I would leave..I wouldn't even bother kicking him out...but that's not sensible and not something to advise someone else to do............

but if it was me..
I'd be long time gone................

if you kick him it is NOT plan B..
he gets no letter for its meaning will be lost and skewed as your kicking him out is a definite result of staying out all night.................

I am not saying you must save this marriage
I am not saying what the bar for disrespect is set at for you....

you must save yourself...though...
that's the plan


ARK

I like ark's post....
what she is saying is a 180...do what he does not expect...
He is too confident that you will be there in the morning...

Your comment about being afraid to live alone hit me hard...I was afraid of that as well...I was afraid one day H was going to leave me but you know, when you act and react based on that fear YOU are very likely (definately) to get that outcome! If you are afraid he will leave....you will act in ways that will just lead to him leaving.....BTW it is called self-fulfilling prophecy....

So, you have nothing to fear....I feared it and here I am now living alone....and it is not so bad.....I miss my H, but I am living...it can be done and I am actually enjoying some new things....

Try what ark suggests....do a Plan A but do for you and keep him guessing as to what you will do....go out....don't be there for a night....you will have his attention!!! guaranteed! No way will he not care where his W is a whole night! No way!


Daisy

[color:"red"]Fear????[/color] U fear a WS? Think about this point: Do you really want a WS in your home? Living a double life? Bringing you and your family pain?

[color:"red"]Pushing him away????[/color] Think about who you w/b pushing away. A WS? That's right. Anyway you could push a WS away with a feather.....wait.....no the WS is running away from his family with his pants falling down.....isn't that the real pix? So you are not pushing him away.

Now listen up..... the one you want back is your H. You really want to push the WS away. You really should not want a WS in your home, EVER!

Now go get a plan...for your H to return. NOT the WS.

JMHO,
L.

Thank you everyone for reading and responding to my posts. It helped me make it through the night when the H called me and told me OW needed him and he was going to stay with her all night. I tossed turned all night about what I would do.

H called me the next morning and said " I know you don't have to say anything but she was really upset and her husband has left her and she couldn't tell her mom, but I love you and am coming home to you". I told H that it made me feel that someone was digging my insides out.

I am going to try to toy with him. he is always carrying his cell phone around, checking it to see if OW called. So last night I started checking my cell phone like I was waiting for a call, your right, he started questioning me "did someone call you?" "who called you?" "did they leave a message?".

Ooohh if that isn't classic babble. So what other souls is he going to visit? Is his phone # on the bathroom wall of gloryB.com? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

Let him know you found the website to have signed up to have a nice man come to your home to comfort you also. Let's see how he likes the same being done in his home. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

L.

Trying -

You are getting great advice. My WH did the same thing with his cell phone too!! I wish someone had suggested to me doing that with my cell. I don't know if I would have gotten a reaction, but that would have been good for me to try.

I know that some of the things they are suggesting will be hard with a little one to take care of. But see if you can swing some of it!!

Does he take calls from her in front of you yet? Be prepared for that if he has not done that yet. What will your plan be? I wasn't ready for it.....And I reacted poorly. Very poorly.

I too was always worried that I was pushing WS away - by exposure mainly. To this day this is still his "sore spot" as he calls it. As MelodyLane says - Exposure creates conflict in the A. That's why the WS hates it so much.

I wish you strength through this. You can be strong though, you can make it through this. You will be fine - either way.

Kim

Try..

PLEASE keep following ark's advice. It is timeless.

Kimberly... may I ask you..what does it mean when the WH starts taking the OW's call right in front of you?

Blessings,

Eibrab

Eibrab -

Not wanting to Threadjack, but it was at that point that I realized he had truly gone off the deep end. That he was SO FAR in the fog that it was going to take several lighthouses to bring him home. That I hadn't stated my boundaries strong enough. That he didn't think enough of me as a person to offer me some respect in that concern(I knew he didn't repsect me of course b/c of his A) That I had been meek in my actions and allowed him to manipulate me.

After it happened the third time(yep, it took three times for me to stand up to it) I told WH that I had NEVER been so humiliated in my entire life. I told him under no circumstances was he to EVER take a call from OW in front of me again. Nor was he to call her in my house.

It didn't happen again. But that of course didn't stop the A. Neither did my exposure as you can see by my signature.

Kim

Look out your window, are you sure you are not living in Saudi Arabia my dear?

This man is acting like a tyrant. Like he can just dictate your boundaries and you will have to accept them. It makes me sick. Sick. AND, might I add, I am a FWS--and its making ME sick.



REPLY: I don't know who YOU are. My H, is a good man, he would not be doing this to his family. WHEN you find that man, please send him home. YOU, however, are not welcome in my home!

STAY FOCUSED ON THE REAL ISSUE

WH thinks this is about his choice between two women. Its not a choice between you and OW. Its a choice about the person he is to be. (WS become FWS when they realize the only REAL choice is about THEM choosing to change. NOT about them choosing between two people.) Don't let him present this as a battle between OW and you over him. This takes the focus off of the REAL issue: can he prove he is willing to be your H? Does he want to be the man you want as a H?

I realize that people here have told you not to push him out, because that is what he wants. But, IMHO, this reasoning is still placating to a WS...by NOT doing what he wants we are still focusing on the wants and "not wants" of a WS.

STANDARDS KEEP US FOCUSED

The nice thing about Plan A is that it establishes a healthy standard for at least one partener--no LB, honesty, working toward meeting ENs. However, if the BS is accepting an open, blatant A like this--that standard is damaged IMHO. I realize that Harley discusses the possibility that some contact will occur during Plan A...but this is not merely some contact...this is compromising all dignity! This is not, I slipped up and had contact. This is: I CAN DO WHATEVER I WANT TO YOU AND YOU ARE LUCKY TO HAVE ME.

Of course your insides are being torn out, this man is STOMPING on your dignity and then coming home as if you are supposed to be grateful to have him! Grrr! He's lucky his belongings aren't forsale on your front lawn! (hey, there's an idea!)

Now, I realize that Ark has mentioned to toy with him--I guess this is another round about way of trying to make him realize this is not a trio...making him think "I better focus on this M--she could move on without me..." Or simply to get him thinking about the situation as though he doesn't know everything...which CLEARLY he does not. I see Ark's point, and I generally really like her advice and it may be appropriate to snap some WS out of it.

But, here, in your situation, where this man is acting with such a degree of entitlement, I respectfully disagree. I don't think it promotes Plan A or Plan B....or a standard of behavior in this situation or protect your from future emotional fallout.

What are your boundaries, if he can just flaunt aournd with another woman and then come home to your bed??? He might as well have kicked you in the stomach? I don't see the difference!

I would have told him to write and NC, if he said no, handed him a Plan B letter.

Not only, because your personal dignity deserves it! (AND your H doesn't deserve to come home and reap the priviledge of your family and of YOU without some commitment not to do it again) The ultimate goal is not just NC, but to recover from all of this. The less stuff you endure at this point, the less stuff you will have to over come.

What are your standards? Where are your boundaries? Please don't get into playing a game with him...get into defining where this game STOPS!!

ahuman...

As all my posts have stated....to tryingtogetit..and any and every other BS has the right at any and every moment to decide when and if they have had enough......

never is as or will be my decision for anyone else..

I also stated clearly that IF it was ME what I would do...

I am not saying she shouldn't kick him out....
I am and remain concerned with kicking a WS out right immediately following an ACT like this one...when in reality it is just another one of a long line of antics...

which is why I suggest hang in a few days to a week or two...then PLAN B with a vengence............

too many people have gone to plan B in a knee jerk fashion..
and it does not work and its meaning is lost....


she can't change what he has done...
but moving slowly sometimes works best...
but know that if she were come here this second and say she shoved his butt out the door she'd have my full support.

my biggest fear is that pretty much no matter what you or I suggest....
tryingto...is still making decisions that are fear based....

I would say if she has lasted even this far since the overnight...then it's a green light to send him away..

ARK

Ark^^ I am glad you restated your position here. It seems, especially lately, BSs are afraid that defining a limit means ending the M, so they read into posts anything that replaces having to set the limit.

As I mentioned, I see a place for distracting the WS, making them realize, hey...I could move on without you. I am not your pawn waiting around for you. So long as, the BS has their plan of action / boundaries defined and is getting their ducks in a row for a Plan B if necessary.

I may have missed something, but I didn't see that happening here. Tryingto seemed to be in a bit of a tail spin and paralyzed by her pain--understandably. So, I thought it was important to reinforce the need for limits.

Tryingto, what are your limits? How far can your WH go? Have you stated them clearly to him?

BTW, from what I have read part of the point of Plan A is to make sure there are enough LUs in the WS (from the BS) to give them a desire to go back. This guy doesn't seem like he wants to give up his family at all. IMHO, if she plan B'ed, he'd have a sobering reality check. He does what he is doing, because he thinks he can get away with it.

ahuman I am all over the issue of bs working from fear based positions...

I am also a huge huge plan B advocate...
but stress that it is always a great movement of love..and hope..
NOT ever a reaction to poopy actions of a WS...
otherwise it has no value or meaning....
and the WS will never even have to see its true meaning for they will always say that it was in retaliation to their actions...not from a place of total surrender and claiming of ones own removal from chaos.....

ARK

I know, I thought your thread on this was really good.

I guess it appears I am trying to debate your points of view, or something. I don't mean to sound that way. I don't feel that way.

My only dissent was with respect to how tryingto seemed to take the advice...when tryingto appeared to be playing cell phone head games INSTEAD of game planning herself....it seemed like fear based CAing to me. tryingto: have you defined your limits? What is your plan now?

Maybe I even seem a bit hypocritical being so irritated by the actions of a WS or seem out of place giving advice to a BS....being that I am a FWS.

Trying,

I am sorry that you are faced with the challenges of an A. I was in your position not so long ago.

I was used to speaking to my H. When he turned into a WH, I continued to talk to him as if he were my H. I was devastated by what came out of WH's mouth.

The change was incomprehensible to me and I was in such a chock I was literally paralyzed and unable to act, inspite of MBers advice and support. I was in so much pain. So, if you can at least avoid this mistake you would already be a step ahead of me and be able to take action.

I know for me, it took PLAN B, not seeing or speaking to WH, to get some of my "balance" back, and now cannot believe how much I did tolerated.

A WH can very very dangerous to the mental health and soul of a BS. It helps if you can put some 'mental' distance from your WH to be able to think clearly, so that you can act to protect yourself.

You are getting excellent advice, consider it, because the quicker you have a plan and boundaries in place, the better off you will be in dealing with your WH's actions.

It's important that you take care of yourself, because it's going to be a rough ride, and expect nothing from your WH at this point but hurtful actions and words.

I never would have believed it if I had not gone through it.

Afer 20+ yrs of marriage to my H, I would rather face the challenges of being alone anytime rather than deal with a WH.

The support I got/get here is priceless.

At some level, a BS is also in a fog, trying to 'stretch' boundaries and values in order to tolerate WS's behaviour. Count on us to try to get you to see clearer.

and these are hugs: {{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{Trying}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}

L,

Thank you for the hugs they are much apperciated.

Ark and Ahuman. I like both of your advice. I have not set good enough boundaries for my Plan A to work. As you know this is what I am having trouble with. I want to talk to him tonight about "no contact with her". Any ideas of how to do this and effectively state my boundaries? My boundary is that I want him to have no contact with her.

What if he does not agree to this? Do I hand him a plan B letter?

Why do you need to talk about the obvious...
you state boundaries and goals...

you say things about how you have no intention in living within a triangle..

that you hold no visions in your marriage of her or any other person so toxic to your marital vows to be part of your lives.........

that she is and anyone else who acts like her is a direct threat to the safety and well being of your son...

you don't discuss boundaries.....
you state them

you don't threaten ultimatums
you don't argue
you don't powerstruggle them...

you state them and then YOU plan from there what your plan is if he chooses to continue...

now plan A is ALL about contact..
but his type of contact is really over the top.....

you speak of the pain...not to get a reaction..but because it is true...so speak it matter of factly........

that it is intolerable pain that each contact he makes...you experince.....

you tell him that your vision in which two people are married and truly nurture and support one another has no room for a third party as she is.......and as he has created her to be..........that is does not fit in your definition of marriage...yours nor no one elses that believes in marriages sanctity....

this has little to with him and getting him to agree...
infact if you insist or demand he will blame you as controlling him and telling who and whom he can and can not speak with...and it will back fire...

so you speak of yourself only..
I dear husband have no intention of being in a marriage in which my spouse would bring pain to me in the name of being friends with some stranger....
etc
etc
etc...........

do you really have a plan B all mapped out yet..
logistics
contact persons
financial..

this is not to be entered lightly..
if you are going to demand no contact..you would be better served just plan aing him..
be happy when he comes home
kiss his cheek
have a good dinner...
be nice...
go to bed...
leave him wondering
NO RELATIONSHIP talk...
but be working out your plan B...
with plans to execute very soon

ARK

What do you mean by this?

You don't need to set boundaries for PLAN A to work...

Plan A is all about working on yourself..focusing in on your own behavior and attitudes...

Mimi,

What I mean by

"I have not set good enough boundaries for my plan A to work" is

basically he knows that he can continue to see her right now and I am not going to do anything about it. He has nothing really to motivate him from not contacting her.

Trying:

The key is to focus only on yourself...

What can YOU do to MOTIVATE him?

Do you understand what I mean when I say that you can "ONLY CONTROL YOURSELF"?

READ MY THREAD regarding THOUGHTS FROM A FBS...

I believe there is absolutely nothing that YOU CAN DO TO STOP HIM..he has to STOP ON HIS OWN and that will take TIME....

I fear I have introduced more confusion than help in my post on boundaries above. Maybe I made you think that you should have put up some boundaries that would make WH stop acting like this. He is not acting like this because of how you executed your Plan A, or anything you have done or not done. He is acting like this because of his own personal problems.

You can't put boundaries around him. You can't control him. You can't fix him. The boundaries are your own—what you can give, what you want, what you can live with, what you cannot accept. They are about YOU. Acting from your limits, rather than acting based on what he is doing or might do. Defining your limits and focusing on what you want in your life will give you courage and allow you to act from strength and not be afraid of how he will respond. I will bump a thread by Suzet about this that you may not have read.

Part of what is hard about your spot it seems is that so many boundaries have been violated....retracing those limits is challenging. But clearly restating your limits gently and lovingly, then letting WH own his own actions in response to your limits can still be done.

I continue to be humbled and amazed by the inner strenghth that it must take to execute a Plan A and Plan B. Many women here have had the courage to do it--so can you.