I don't agree that Patriot was insulting. I think accusing him of "trashy bad manners" is, though.

Did they not expect anything in return? You say that experienced posters are leaving because their advice isn't being followed...yet. It may take awhile for some to grasp some of the concepts. Immediately writing them off as "unwilling to listen" sounds like giving with strings attached.

It sounds like "I am unwilling to help you unless you listen and agree with me in a time frame that is acceptable to me".

Btw, is it possible for us to discuss this without arguing? If not, I don't wish to participate. A healthy exchange of ideas and opinions would be welcome. I'm too tired to argue tonight.

frozen, it sounded to me like someone just wanted to hear their own opinion confirmed. That is being "unwilling to listen," and should be viewed as a waste of time. You can see with your own eyes that Mulan and Bob were more than willing to help, but the newbie was not willing to listen.

And again, not expecting to be insulted for being willing to help is not "expecting something in return." And yes it is bad manners to insult someone who is clearly trying to help. Sorry if you find that "insulting," but it is the truth.

You participate in a hostile call out thread and then say you don't "want to argue?" Perhaps the time to consider that was before you decided to jump into this thread? Give me a break.

I "jumped" because I made the mistake of thinking this was headed towards a healthy exchange of ideas. I was wrong. Once I determined that was not where it was headed, I am choosing not to participate.

Again, I don't believe this was a "hostile call out thread".

"Give me a break"??? You seem to be a bit hostile, yourself. Which is why I'm choosing not to participate. If it becomes a healthy, productive exchange, I'd be interested in jumping back in. I don't wish to participate in an argument.

frozen, a public call out thread designed to call folks "on the carpet" for imparting MB principles is probably not destined to foster a "healthy, productive" exchange. Somehow, I don't think this is the right approach for that. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Okay, I'll respond:

"Ray3" did not simply disagree with me; he resorted to insult and name-calling. Please take another look at his responses to me on the other thread.

Yes, I do respond mainly to posters whose situations most resemble my own; I don't see how it could be otherwise. I respond when something moves me or affects me. My time is limited here, as it it for most posters.

I am sure that I often sound unhappy. I can only say that not everyone here is in recovery and some of us are still very much struggling just to get through a day. One thing that sometimes helps is to try to help someone else. That is why I post here.

Crazy Mulan (I think I'll add that to my sig) <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Hi pat !

I explained to Ray on his 'call out' thread :

Ray I have a complex life right now and I have limited time to spend sharing experiences with people on these boards. I am compelled so to do as this board and Harleys book surely saved my marriage and my life, but Ray I can't remonstrate with someone who agressively defends a threatening relationship. Theres no hope for you adhering to some of the more subtle and difficult to understand tenets of MB if you don't (or won't) grasp this one.

You say you want to save your marriage, but I don't see any willingness to shut up and listen and execute techniques that work if they don't suit you. Like a fat person who wants to get fit, but wont go down the gym. They'd take ANY drug to get slim, but they won't do the hard yards over time. Recovery is hard yards over time Ray. Big time.

MB I uninstinctive and can be REALLY hard. But me and hundreds of others are living proof that it WORKS.

Ray I guess your head and heart are all over the place right now, and God knows as an active soldier, I'd never let you buy a drink in MY home town, but you have to find some CALM and rationality. One of you two has got to be stable, and it may as well be you.

Study. And open your eyes and ears. Please.


I think it always needs to be remembered that sharing whether from bumbling blokes like me, right up to the estimable Just Learning or K are not commodities. Your MC was way out of order because their advice was a commodity, paid for by you, and I guess in response to a whole lot of background information. But even the best advice on here is EAOE.

I've read every darn pop psych book on affairs and relationship rebuilding that I've ever seen recommended and a few that have not been. I have asessed their insights into my own sitiation and others on these boards. What I know is entirely non academic. I do not have counselling skills, MC accrediation or anything. I'm a witch doctor not a qualified surgeon.

I can only advise out my of applied learning: my experience.

I don't know where to start talking to someone whos views of what is OK in a marriage is so very different than what I have learned. Other wiser posters need to help him.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

* Froz, you said

ome of the posts there did reek of "fire and brimstone" derived from projecting some trigger about someone's own situation.

Explain how this is different using ones own experience to warn or educate others ? Squid affair grew from an intimate friendship,Mulans Hs affairs grew from over intimate relationships , tell me how using those examples is trigger projection rather than cautionary experiential advice ?

It seems to me (in a just woke up state) it is the difference between sharing your experience and allowing someone else the choice to see how it applies to their own situation and identifying someone else's experience for them as identical to your own and telling them that it will inevitably have the same results and then insulting and/or refusing to offer them any more "advice" unless they conform - I guess it's the approach, offering someone something or beating them over the head with it. It's the difference between "Here is something I have experienced", or "Here is what Dr. Harley says", a suggestion rather than a direct order. It's the difference between "Be careful" and "you are exactly like my WH". Does that make sense?

I am also not comfortable with calling anyone here an "expert". That seems to place some members on a pretty high pedestal. Are any of us really experts? Are any of us really Recovered? Isn't it a process, not just about infidelity, but about life itself, and personal growth? Who among us is perfect? Is there not something to be learned from anyone here, no matter how high the number of their postings? Placing anyone on a pedestal can lead to negative results - as in the situation of Coach. Some have placed Pep on a pedestal - she has been experiencing some frustration, as of late.

Back to presentation - Maybe it is about different "styles" of posting. Suppose I had just said "placing someone on a pedestal WILL lead to negative results. I know because that is what I did and it had negative results" (just an example). Is that really advice? Or did I allow my own emotions about my own position to dictate to someone else how their situation is?

If Patriot had not used the phrase "calling out on the carpet", would his original post seemed offensive to Melody (and maybe to others)?

I have seen similar posts to other people like...

"Paging member x- to the courtesy phone..."
"Pssst - member x - over here..."

...to ask them a question, point out something that might be useful to them, or simply to make a comment.

If the person or people in question find it offensive, can they not choose to respond or not to respond?

Patriot's comments and questions in the original post on this thread seemed to be made respectfully.

I recall, Bob, that I "called you to the carpet" once. I believe that thread was entitled 'Paging Mr. Pure' because I wanted to ask you a question about some information you had posted previously. Was that rude or insulting?

It sounded to me like someone who was trying to learn and understand - definitely not a waste of time.

frozen, what an odd interpretation. A person who is "trying to learn" doesn't lob insults against those who proffer ideas that disagree with their pre-formed opinions. That is not a sign of someone who is "trying to learn" anything, but a sign of a closed mind.

I don't find it odd in the least. I have often been defensive and reluctant while trying on new ideas or principles - a struggle with letting go of old behaviors or habits and adopting new ones.

Perhaps it was offensive because it IS a hostile gesture? Could that be it? And viewed as such on most forums? It is a hostile gesture to call someone on the carpet with a call out thread. The phrase "call on the carpet" simply defines the action. It was not the definition that made it a hostile act, but the ACT. All the spinning in the world won't change that.

The simple truth is that Mulan and Bob were insulted and dismissed and then called out for simply imparting Marriage Builders principles.

And frozen, honestly, do you really feel you are qualified to lecture others on their style and presentation? I find that a little beyond arrogant that you are doing that very thing with Bob in your post. I hope that you do not fancy yourself as the behavior police and will allow others to post in the style and manner that suits them. Bob does quite well all on his own and has helped numerous people on this forum. Somehow I don't think he needs your pointers.

As you said, you were "reluctant" and "defensive." That is not a state of being "open." And we would go further in this case, he was insulting to those who tried to help. That is not willing to learn by any stretch of imagination.

No, that could not be it. It wasn't a hostile gesture. You may perceive it as one, but that doesn't make it so.

I happen to know for a fact it was NOT a hostile gesture because I spoke with Patriot about the subject just prior to his posting it. I know what his intent was - you do not. You can only guess.



No, I do not.


Again, this is your perception, Melody. I wasn't lecturing Bob on style and presentation. It was my opinion. I am not certainly suggesting that anyone change their style or presentation. He asked me a question about my opinion, and it was just that - an opinion.



If that is your hope, you will be pleased to know that I do not, in fact, fancy myself the behavior police.

I would consider it futile, if my desire were to change someone else's behavior. I also believe that many different styles of posting are not only important, but more effective, as there are as many diversities of people as there are posting styles.



I agree, and include myself as one of those who has benefited from him.


I wasn't offering him any.

But, it is often the process of becoming open. I'm not sure where I would be if not for the patience of others here, or if they had immediately decided that I was unwilling to learn and not worth their time, simply because I didn't understand right off the bat.

The fact that I stuck around showed a willingness to learn on my part.

Perhaps the fact that Ray did so, is evidence that he wants to learn, too.

I happen to know for a fact it was NOT a hostile gesture because I spoke with Patriot about the subject just prior to his posting it. I know what his intent was - you do not. You can only guess.

Excuse me while I butt in...

patriot is the person that named it...and it seems to me that he should claim it. He was clear on what he was doing when he called it "calling on the carpet". Calling on the carpet IS a hostile act...otherwise we wouldn't mind when it happens to us in the boss's office! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

Also...I have noticed something about you and patriot. It appears (TO ME) that you need to have a common enemy (disputes on the forum) in order to connect with each other in a positive way. When you are defending each other, does it make you feel closer to one another?

I am not asking to antagonize. I am asking because I have seen that in my life here. A common enemy will create a bond between two people...but take that away, and they will be at each other once again.

Just something to think about.

Respectfully,

committed

You may want to believe that, frozen, but it is a hostile gesture and is seen as such. To call someone out for imparting Marriage Builders principles with insults and critques on their posts is arrogant and hostile. It is a bannable offense in many forums and even warranted a warning of the moderator on this one. So, you may be blind to that truth, but it is very hostile.





You can call it an "opinion" or a baloney sandwich, but we can see that you are sanctimoniously lecturing Bob because his style does not suit yours. You somehow feel qualified to do this.


I wasn't offering him any. [/quote]

You mean, not in the last 5 minutes, anyway? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I stated 'calling on the carpet' because I felt it would be perceived that way. I was trying to head off an issue at the pass.

That this thread has entirely exploded was completely unforeseen. I find it odd that the people addressed by the 'call out' simply responded and did not call me moron.

Either way, my entire purpose for this thread has long since been lost in the shuffle of huffing and puffing.

I suppose I will never understand somethings. I will not be posting on this thread again. This is closed to me and I am moving on to something else, if even fractionally more productive.

frozen, this is just more disconnected double speak. A person who is "reluctant," defensive and insulting is not "open." Just because they may become that way in the future does not mean they are NOW. ******, he may become a baloney sandwich in the future, it doesn't mean he is NOW.

No, you were trying to pre-empt any objections to your hostile act of calling out others to "call them on the carpet." Of course it would be percieved that way, because it IS that way.

Froz, you have me completely bamboozled, and that's a fact !

You infer that experiences shouod be offered up but not applied. What use is that?

I'd CERTAINLY be divorced or dead now IME if Mel, WAT, Pep and others had not applied their experience to my situation very directly. OK, kicked my [censored].

I DID tell Ray that Dr Harley say no intimate opposite sex relationships. I reinforced this by pointing out that Squids affair andmost of teh others I have read about here started in that way. And when ray pushed back strongly at me I quit teling him.

I quite honestly haven't the faintest idea what you think I've done wrong.

I said other smart people than I shoud advise. Perhaps I should have said "more patient" too.

regarding my supposed 'ordering' Ray I actually told him:


Fun though it is to have smart ladies fighting over me <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> I just see a storm in a teacup.

Regarding "Callouts", I'm not offended but then again I take offence at very little, Froz. I'm a knight and knights don't get flustered ! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />