How does FLUIDITY look? I can envision cement but not FLUIDIDITY... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

As in "BODY FLUIDS"?...YUK!!

Sorry, I couldn't resist...

This is coming from the person you've help to create since
last April Fool's Day.....

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Guidelines for POJA

Guideline 1

Set ground rules to make negotiation pleasant and safe.

...Ground Rule 1 Try to be pleasant and cheerful throughout negotiations.

...Ground Rule 2 Put safety first. Don't make demands, show disrespect, or become angry when you negotiate, even if your partner makes demands, shows disrespect, or becomes angry with you.

...Ground Rule 3 If you reach an impasse and don't seem to be getting anywhere, or if one of you is starting to make demands, show disrespect, or become angry, stop negotiating and come back to the issue later.

~~~> In other words, do not succumb to the temptations of your Taker <~~~

Guideline 2

Identify the problem from both perspectives.

Very important point Harley makes ~~~> Most couples try to resolve a conflict without doing their homework. They don't fully understand the conflict itself, nor do they understand each other's perspectives. In many cases, they are not even sure what they really want or what they are enthusiastically willing to give.

Harley says

Respect is the key in this phase of negotiation.

It is extremely important to avoid trying to straighten each other out.

~~~> OK .... anyone guilty of this raise your hand <~~~ *my hand is up* <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

Guideline 3

Brainstorm with abandon

This is the creative part.

Look for mutually agreeable areas that will create compatability.


The goal is to please both of you.

Harley says

The secret to understanding your partner is to think like your partner's Taker thinks.

It's easy to appeal to your partner's Giver ~~~> if she really loves me, she'll let me do this. BUT, lasting peace must be forged with your partner's Taker, so your solutions must appeal to your partner's most selfish instincts. At the same time they must also appeal to your most selfish instincts.

(Mimi, does this answer your earlier question?)

VERY IMPORTANT POINT HERE***

Resist one type of solution that your Giver and Taker may suggest --- [color:"blue"]the I'll let you do what you want this time if you let me do what I want next time solution[/color] <~~~ That's the RENTER'S SOLUTION that encourages you to alternate sacrificing for each other.

and Guideline 4

Choose the solution that meets the conditions of the Policy Of Joint Agreement --Mutual and enthusiastic agreement

~~~> regarding addiction <~~~

"But what can you do if you have agreed to follow the POJA, tried to negotiate for a mutually enthusiastic solution, and yet you or your partner keep behaving in a way that is objectionable to the other? This kind of thoughtless behavior may turn out to be an addiction "

"If one of you struggles with an addiction, you will find that the POJA simply cannot be followed until you have overcome the addiction."

"So if you have tried to follow my advice but can't seem to negotiate with each other regardless of how hard you try, addiction may be the culprit."

Ok, let me give you an example of what we are trying to negotiate right now. My H works Saturdays for a friend. He tends to put the demands and needs of this particular friend above all else including his family. Ok, maybe that is a DJ but it is also the pattern. Anyway, once a month of so the friend and H go to a swapmeet. It is on Sunday so that makes it two days that this friend gets my H and none for the family. H does not enjoy this event anymore but does not want to hurt the friend. This BTW is the same friend that has been enabling the A for the past few months. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Anyway, we are trying to negotiate so that friend only gets Saturdays. Problem is my giver has given too much on this issue and now my taker is screaming "no fair". Any suggestions on how to peacefully negotiate this?

like this [color:"red"]~~~~~~~~~~~[/color]

Show your H the POJA guidelines ... the ones on the site are best ... download them ... and first discuss POJA and it's value and see if he will buy into POJA itself !!!

Will do. Thanks.

Mulan - I see myself as having been a buyer in the giving mode before D-day. I have evolved into a freeloader, and my taker is on the loose.

WH was a freeloader, but has changed into a renter with OW. Right now he is a giver, with his taker tightly under control.

Believer, has this discussion been useful to you?

Just want to know ... if it has ... in what way?

Mulan,

quote:----------------------------------------------------
Grapegirl, Lunamare, and Losttranslation (among others) - I think we are all Buyers married to full-blown Freeloaders. We need to talk!
----------------------------------------------------------

I don't question that I am a Buyer based on the 'full committment' part (or else, at this point, I wouldn't even be trying PLAN B!)

However, based on the info. provided here (don't have the book) I definitely did not handle right the balancing of my Giver and Taker and 'sacrificing'. So, I do wonder now if I was a true or a good Buyer in my M. On the other hand, I certainly don't think I was a Renter or Freeloader. My intention, in spite of any problems/difficulties we had in M, was to stick together and see us through the problems.

Apparently, being in PLAN B I have now supposedly become a Renter, for sure!

Did I want things to work out so badly, that I 'sacrificed' too much, like self-esteem/respect?

At this point, I don't know what H was, but by becoming a WS , H definitely became a Freeloader, especially when I heard his logic (which is now easier to explain with these terms) in evaluating in which relationship it would be worthwhile for him to put efforts in: on OW (NEW, PASSIONATE) or work on M (OLD, requiring to give up OW, and make MAJOR efforts into recovery of M: rebuilding trust, forgiveness, etc). It was like, evaluating the purchase of any old household item, or, choosing what requires the least effort.

I could not believe WH's logic - where had the protecting and caring about your family attitude gone? This, I admit now, through me in a tailspin and as some of you recall, unfortunately, totally paralyzed me, and made me less effective, to say the least.

Now, although I may be tempted sometimes by the 'crumbs' offered by WH, I am definitely finding it easier 'to think' in PLAN B, and refuse all offers. It's H back or nothing! Obviously, WH doesn't like this at all, but I won't have anything to do with WH - he is too hurtful (so, it's easy). This I guess is my Taker talking - trying to 'protect' me.

I guess PLAN B, with BS out of the picture, is giving the WH/Freeloader a chance to 'get what he wished for' hoping that the combination of being a Freeloader and forcing 'reality' on the fantasy of A, OW will not meet expectations? Boy, it sounds like a really long shot to me!

Anyway, I think my posting is getting to be too long, so I will stop here.

FF....


I thought you said your H was very clear about one issue ~~~> he does NOT want to be married.

Has his position on this issue changed dramatically all of a sudden?

Well funny thing. When he didn't want to be married he was on the fence about OW. Now, it appears the PA is over and only occasional C with OW about OC. So...the result is he is leaning toward being a renter and wanting to be M'd again. MY response is only if we can MUTUALLY work out an agreement ALA MB prinicipals that is mutually satisfactory to both of us. We are supposed to sit down and write out our own individual boundaries, then meet talk and see if the "middle" ground is acceptable to us both. If not, then the D continues. The D is moving slowly which may be a God thing. I spoke to my attorney's secretary and he has not even given her the agreement to type yet.

Pep - I ordered the book. Should be here today. I'm fascinated by this whole subject. In the meantime, I'm enjoying freeloading.

do your homework FF ...

and particularly consider your H's lifelong contact with OW/OC and just what your TAKER selfishly wants ... and do not dismiss your Taker as "bad" ... she's a good Taker ~~~> she loves YOU

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

glad to hear it !

I will. I am not leaping for joy or assuming everything is "different this time" like I have before. This all about what we can both happily live with together or we don't. Yes, it is a very painful dilemna with the lifelong contact stuff. I am taking my time. In the meantime, I am still working on my issues. I have to whether I stayed married or not! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

This is my "if only I can explain it to you better you'll see how right I am" mode.

I am so guilty of this. I never really saw it as a respect issue, but I can see that is exactly what it is.

FIM

Lunamare....



I think this pretty much puts you into the Buyer pile. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />


This discussion has helped me understand how/why some BS struggle ( for what seems to me a verrrrrry long time ) before deciding to finally go to Plan B. It's the Buyer ... reluctant to become a Renter.

This was an actual out-loud "ah-HA !" moment for me <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />


You can always build yourself more self-esteem/respect ... it's one of the things you do control ! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

[color:"red"] who put all these stars on this thread? [/color]

Taken from the concepts part of MB site .....


Know what strikes me right off the bat looking at this list?

...Radical Honesty pretty much knocks conflict avoiders out !!!

.... now to apply it to POJA .... hmmmmm <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />