Can I be honest?


If I were her I would be concerned because by the very act of living with her before marriage you are showing that you would embrace some biblical principles while abandoning others on an as needed basis.

And let's face it-Certain portions of the biblical principle of submission are discarded by many men on an as needed basis...

Just my $.02

You and I are ---> <---



"Sub" does indeed mean "beneath" no matter how you slice it.


The biblical principle of submission does require that the woman defer to the man...Yes, he is supposed to offer his protection yada yada yada, but a bird in a guilded cage is caged just the same, no?

That is one interpretation. Not all Biblical scholars agree with this interpretation.


I agree. So how do you reconcile this, the fact that men and women are supposed to "submit to one another in love", and Christ (not Paul's) teaching of "do unto one another as you would have them do unto you"? How can the husband be below the wife while the wife is below the husband? If a man "requires" his wife to submit to him, does that mean that he wants others to "require" him to submit to them?

Let's not pick and chose scripture like we are at a buffet table, here.

Ri-ight, and most men are not biblical scholars...This is why the interpetation Wife submit & defer to husband is so popular. Actually, it's also very popular because it is very useful to folks with those particular leanings. What better justification for your automatic superiority than the word of THE Lord Our God [color:"red"]him[/color]self?

Let's face it-mutual submission is damned hard work (no pun intended.) and it requires that women be viewed as persons rather than collectibles, domestic service providers, and / or sources of pleasure.

Some folks ain't trying to hear all that.



Yes-let's not; however, let us not fool ourselves into thinking that we should not be on the look out for folks who are .

in reference to Greengables post -

The Bible tells men to love their wives even as Christ loved the church, not as a man loved himself. It tells us to love our neighbor as ourself, and to love God with everything that we are.

My parents POJA'd a working definition of "submission" in their marriage. For the most part, they POJA. However, if they are ever "stuck" on an issue, Mom defers to Dad, willingly. Its worked for them for 40 years.


Mrs. W8ing

So we are to love our neighbors as ourselves.....ought we to love our spouses equally to our neighbors.

Heavens, I can't get the gender neutral pronouns to work for this.

So, I'm to love my neighbor (not meaning only the person next door) as myself. To hear him/her fairly. To consider their interest in some matters.

I owe my spouse the same consideration.

I wouldn't expect my neighbor to paint their house the color I want. So, should it be that big a deal what color car my spouse wants? Would I speak disrespectfully to my neighbor? Would I want to listen to disrespectul talk about them OR about myself? If I know my neighbor worked 11 pm - 7 am, would I always cut my grass at 7:30 a.m. or would I wait till later in the day. After all, I am to love my neighbor as myself.

What does this say about how I treat my spouse?

We cannot convince you that you don't want a submissive wife. Or that for you it is not a good thing. or "the right thing."

But if you have to convince your wife-to-be to be submissive, then that is controlling. Clearly you both want something different out of marriage. Find somebody who shares your (un-realistic) views.

Besides, if somebody told me they wanted me to submit to them, do whatever they say, and by the way give me full access to my bank account, I think I would run for the hills!

Using the word "submissive" in any relationship just sounds degrading. I guarantee women (wives) aren't treated anything like they were in the days that the bible was written. They have a greater deal of authority and respect in a relationship than they were in those days. I would just refrain from using word like "submit" and "obey". Obey was in my marriage vows.(only mine, not his) To me, a dog should be commanded to obey, not a wife. I believe we should do things for our spouses out of love, not because we are commanded to. Saying "Honey can you do me a favor.." sounds better than "You need to this for me." I didn't get married because I wanted to be someone's slave. I wanted to have a loving reationship and share my life with someone.

This whole thread makes me so frustrated! This subject has been so completely misunderstood in my opinion since the beginning of time...or at least the completion of the Bible! Why is it that the whole of the civilized world will remember and quote Ephesians 5:22a (not even the entire verse!) and take it entirely out of context??

In my readings I see Paul as writing one big, fat paragraph starting at Ephesians 5:1 and going right the whole way through to 6:20 and his topic is "living a Christian life in our relationships" (as followers of God, as wives, husbands, servants, children, brethren...).

In those HOT verses 22 through to 33 I understand Paul to be shining a huge great spotlight on WHAT MEN AND WOMEN REALLY NEED. The most important need a man has as a husband is for his wife to show him respect. And the most important need a wife has is for her husband to show her love. This doesn't mean that a husband doesn't need love and a wife doesn't need respect (heaven forbid, in this day and age!! We women are more like men than ever!) but Paul is just so incredibly on the button that he hands us, in plain black and white, the number one best-seller for a successful marriage.

How can people not understand that? I'd encourage any of you who are sitting there fuming over how unfair the world is and how women are underrated and underpaid to read the whole of Ephesians 5:1 - 6:20. Let's not overrate ourselves...it's only one verse out of 53!

After reading Tlove's post it sounds like there's a renter's agreement in there. If you read Dr. Harley's material it'll tell you so. What is being asked is sacrifice to sacrifice. All that causes is more trouble in the long run because sooner or later somebody is going to start feeling "well I sacrificed this for you so you owe me!". What Dr. Harley suggests is "do nothing without mutual enthusiastic agreement" - period. His books follow the Bible. If you have any questions on anything in there I'm sure he could be asked to explain it and where it comes from. We are ALL supposed to submit to ome another. That does not mean that if I don't like something I do it just because you ask me to. It could be really offensive to me. It does not mean that if you don't like something I ask you do it just because I ask. It means that we take each other's feelings into account and respect each other's decision NOT to do something we want if it is offensive to them! We DON'T try to force anyone to do something they don't agree with. Jesus doesn't try to force us to do anything we don't want to do. He gives us full respect for our decisions to do or not to do whatever we choose. It doesn't mean that if we don't do what He tells us to do things are going to go well - but He gives us our choice.

And as far as I'm concerned, if Tlove thinks she should "know what is expected of a wife" then he is full of crap!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Maybe where she grew up her father was a lot more respectful of her mother than he is of her. He needs to go get some counseling himself!!! He has some screwed up ideas of what a marriage is supposed to be about. He might not be taking her best interest into account when he asks something of her. And if we want to go back to the Bible it says the husband is to be to the wife what Christ was to the church - He DIED for the church!! Do you want to go die for this lady you are talking about. You might say yes now just to get what you want but with your attitude I seriously doubt it! Go get YOURSELF some help - YOU NEED IT!!