Mimi and Shugah,

You guys are what this board is all about. Caring and honest people willing to share their experience and hard earned knowledge to those of us looking for help. Thank you from the bottom of my heart.

I have seen much of what you both have said already. Especially the Happy, Happy talk. As for her needs I actually asked her that very question once a few months ago when we were still on a semi-friendly basis. Her answer was he didn't give her anything different from me. She said that he was just there for her and listened and paid attention to her. I can see her point on this. I was at a point in my life where I believed we were connected forever. I let our home life get to the point we did not spend enough time together every day. I made several weak efforts at confronting this issue and let it slide for far too long. Other than that the only thing she has said was that she wanted someone to care what she wanted. No idea what she meant by this. I have all of my outdoor activities and I always felt guilty about them. I used to ask if she had anything she wanted to do as a couple so we could spend more time together. I even offered to take dance lessons. She said no to all my suggestions and simply said she was content and happy. I know now this should have been a big red flag! The next flag she waved was the declaration of how much she "loved her job". Another missed signal on my part!

I will be reading "His Needs, Her Needs", I have already read several other books like "What Women Want" and have learned a great deal. I was in no way the perfect husband by any means, but I do know that for 28 years I was a good husband and friend. I could even have understood if she had just said she wanted out before all of this happened. The confusing part is how she kept it a secret and stayed for 8 months while it was going on. And then the fence sitting after D-Day for several months until I said no more.

I guess you are right in that this is fog talk, because it just does not make sense. I'm not meeting her most important needs so she looks elsewhere for those and chooses to make it a PA. But at the same time I meet enough of her EN's to keep her in our home and still happy enough to have normal SF with her, which in our case was frequent.
In a word for me- BIZARRE.

Mimi, I guarantee you complete darkness from now on. I hope we can continue this thread and talk more about what to look for when things have changed in her thinking if they change. For now I guess I work on myself more and dwell on things I can't change less and less. Sounds good, now JFDI right!

What I want to say this morning is this..speaking for myself...

I HAD TO REALLY SEE THE MONSTER...BEFORE I COULD FIGHT IT...I HAD TO ACCEPT THE REALITY OF THE EVIL FORCES THAT I WAS FACING....

I may have said this before but I will say this again...

I HAD TO ACCEPT THE REALITY OF THE FACT THAT MY H HAD BECOME A CRAZED MONSTER...WHO WOULD STOOP TO THE LOWEST OF LOWS TO CONTINUE OBTAINING THE DRUG THAT HE WAS RECEIVING FROM THE OW....

I HAD TO GET THIS.....

DON'T BE SURPRISED OF ANYTHING THAT YOUR WS MIGHT DO.....

Then proceed to do whatever you have to do to SAVE YOUR MARRIAGE....

Doing what you NEED to do might mean actions that others may not understand..doing what YOU NEED TO DO might mean actions that do not fit with what you thought was normal or even moral...

Why do I say this? Because you are face to face with EVIL..the sewer and gutter of HUMANITY....

This takes the use of WEAPONS unseen and unused in most arsenals.....

Sorry for the vent yesterday, guys...

I still have those MOMENTS...

Like somebody here said yesterday...the pain of the A is still there somewhere...actually never goes away...

I was listening to the book DIFFICULT CONVERSATIONS on MP3 while exercising and the authors made a good point that I will share...especially for you DUK...

They suggested that it is in our own best interest to take the CONTRIBUTION STANCE as opposed to playing the BLAME GAME...

Their point is that, if somebody has wronged us or victimized us, it is best to focus on our CONTRIBUTION to the problem. They even specifically used the example of INFIDELITY. So even though it is WRONG for our spouses to have an AFFAIR, and we SHOULD NOT ACCEPT BLAME FOR THE AFFAIR, it is most helpful to focus on OUR CONTRIBUTION to it.

Why focus on our contribution? Because that's what we have power over, that's what we can do something about...This speaks to PERSONAL CHANGE and PERSONAL POWER...
even if our contribution is only 5%, we should work on that 5%.... (a direct quote from the authors). Sounds a lot like the Harley's point of view, doesn't it?

Duk you said:



Duk, this is not bizarre, IMHO. I think that you are RIGHT ON TARGET in this thinking....Even if you do not reconcile with your WW, it will be helpful for you to learn how you might want to do things differently in a R...

Let us know what you learn from HIS NEEDS, HER NEEDS....

Sounds like you met your WW's need for SF but needed work in other areas such as RECREATIONAL COMPANIONSHIP....

Take Good Care

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Mimi,

Right on target as usual. I could never get her to show an interest in anything to do as a couple other than the occasional round of golf. She had a hip replacement a month before D-Day and had battled that problems for over a year. If this is what the OM is meeting her recreation seems to be clubbing and drinking now.

We went to basketball and baseball games , travelled as we could afford to and did as much as possible that way together. She always said we needed to find something to do as a couple but poo-pahhed all of my suggestions. I even offered to take dance lessons and she did not want to do that. I finally said at one point to find something and I will do it regardless and it never materialized for us.

I don't think recreation was the issue. I think attentiveness and conversation was the weak link for me. I placed too much faith in our years together and did not engage her conversationally enough. OM is all about talk and attentiveness. He has few recreational activities other than spectator sports and works with her all day. They started going to lunch regularly and it took off from there. All it took to move to a PA was an expression of feelings for her by the OM and it was on.

I realize how important this is now in a R. I just wish she could have said something before going down this road. Never in our 28 years together did she ever express any unhappiness over our relationship. I brought it up last December that we were just not the same anymore and by then she had been with him for 4 months. Even then she said we were fine and it was just her hip and the worry the surgery in January was causing her. Bad on me! I should have known better.

Don't kick yourself, DUK...

MOVE FORWARD NOW...

You did the best you could...

I'll come back and talk to you later after lunch...

Mimi,

I am heading out early today from work to spend a long weekend with my dog duck hunting. I will talk to you more Sunday evening or next week. I need to get out and recharge my attitude. DD let me know yesterday she needs to be more supportive of her mother and to do that she needs to start socializing with Mom and OM. Something she said she would never do 8 months ago. I knew it was coming but it still hurts!

I think its EX's way of paving OM's way into the family for the holidays. Just thinking of OM sitting down to Christmas dinner at IL's with EX and kids makes me want to puke! I know they will be with me for the morning but tradition means dinner at IL's. Just something else to look forward to this year! I will be exceedingly glad when this year is over and done with. 2005 will be with me forever anyway so lets finish it and move on.

DuK:

If you are still around, just want to say that I hope you told your DD how you feel about her being "SUPPORTIVE" of her mother...

She can love her and want to be with her without being "supportive" or enabling what she is doing...

Since your DD is an adult, I think she can handle your opinions on this now...

Thanks for this thread! I really needed to read it today.

It came to me to share this today after thinking about LOST IN THE CITY over the weekend.....

MY MAJOR MISTAKES: DENIAL AND CONFLICT AVOIDANCE

GOD FORBID, if I had to live my MARRIED LIFE over again, I would rid myself of these coping strategies....

The fact that my H was having an affair was staring me straignt in the face.

I DIDN'T WANT TO BELIEVE THE UNBELIEVABLE....

Not me..not him...

Yes you...yes him, you "stupid fool"....

ACCEPTANCE AND ACKNOWLEDGEMENT... That's the key...

By the time, I accepted the reality of what had happened it was ALMOST too late...

IMHO, it is more dangerous to deny the truth than to acknowledge the truth of this tragedy. Looking back, in hindsight, once I began to expose and to speak the truth, my life began to turn around for the better..

The most important and significant gain for me has been SELF-RESPECT. This has been as essential FOR ME AS IT HAS BEEN FOR OUR MARRIAGE.

I have learned to ACKNOWLEDGE AND SPEAK THE TRUTH in all aspects of my life..at work..with my children..with my family members...

I no longer allow myself to be MANIPULATED BY LIES...

It's so freeing to no longer live in FEAR OF HURTING SOMEONE'S FEELINGS....I don't yell or scream. I am able to calmly tell you what I sense about a situation and how I will respond.

It's so PLEASING TO BE RESPECTED...

A definite change occurred once I earned my H's respect...

He has actually said: "I am not attracted to a woman that I cannot respect"...DUH...

Once I got this:

His lies and manipulations failed to work...even though he certainly kept trying...
He became afraid of losing me, knowing that I was less concerned about losing him...
He began to consider me worthy and of value...
He continues to treat me like I'm SPECIAL even to this day....

I much...so much more...LOVE..the life that I live now...

This life is AUTHENTIC..there is no sugar coating...

But there is certainly MORE PASSION AND INTIMACY IN MY LIFE AND IN OUR RELATIONSHIP...

I am trying to say to you..be willing to take the risks necessary to get to this place...

As afraid as you are to get here, it is well worth it...

I wish I could put into words all that I am trying to say..

Like DUK says..JUST F'ING DO IT.. JFDI...

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Hey Mimi and Stillbreathing,

Still, I have been waiting to hear from you again. How are you? Any good news? I hope you and the baby are doing well, you definitely deserve it. Give us a post and lets hear about how things are progressing.

Mimi, thanks again for your thoughts, I always feel better after reading your posts. Spent the weekend hunting with the dog and visiting with my parents and some good friends. A much better attitude as a result and more focused today. Terrible hunting but a lot of alone time to enjoy something I love and clear my thoughts regarding the EX. Living a life based on what she is doing or what she is doing with the kids is not a life for me. I need to forget all of that and make my mind up to live for me first. DD has said the same this morning. She said she is going to do what feels right for herself and I need to put my focus on what I am doing not the EX or her. Who knows,maybe having DD around the "boytoy" will wake the EX up to what he is doing to her and her children. I think I am starting to see the light on this and I hope I can get my mind to shift focus off of the EX and her antics and back into present time in my life. Work, hunting and healing. Scratch the "I hope" part and insert I am going to JFDI.

Have a great day!

Shugah,

I have some questions for you on what to look for if WS has a change of heart. What was the first signal you saw that said a change had occurred? Was it obvious or did it take several signals to see what was happening?

Was it something like the birthday e-mail I got several weeks ago and LB'd her about? Is this the kind of thing I am looking for?

<<<<BUMP>>>>

Remember now that we were apart for over 2 years. Those first few months especially, and even after that, I took EVERYTHING that he said or did as a "sign" that he was confused and was considering coming home.

And I truly believe that he did feel that. But he didn't have the courage, couldn't break his addiction. But his conflict was obvious.....he would try to hide behind smugness, defensiveness, meaness...he'd play the victim....he was unrecognizable as the man I once knew.

It wasn't until he bottomed out that he was able to see he had created the nightmare that he was living. It wasn't pretty and I helped him out because I felt it was the right thing to do. Now, he was certainly down and out many times before this and I wouldn't help....he wasn't ready...I wasn't ready...he was still seeing OW, and obviously she wasn't helping.....he still had further to fall....finally he did...

Shortly after I helped him out...He moved back home out of necessity then...financial reasons....he had no where to go.....we were honest about why he was here, trying to keep the relationship piece separate....neither of us wanted to start something for the wrong reasons, he wanted to get back on his feet and have something to offer before he could consider being a couple again.

He was still in withdrawal as well. But fortunately that had already been underway for several months before he moved back....

It wasn't long before things started to shift for him, for us....he was reconnecting with his kids, his home, me....he was remembering how good it could be....I guess you could say I was in Plan A again!
It was an emotional time...and we slowly became a couple again...

Dukhuntr....your WW is in conflict...believe that. But the only thing you can do is protect your heart, your interests....the biggest mistakes I made were LB's after I would recieve a "signal" followed by nothing new! It would push him further away....I should have done a solid PB!

What I did right was exposure, nailing him financially and legally when he wasn't stepping up to the plate with support, standing up to him and OW when they had the gall to show up at family events embarrassing themselves and our children, making it uncomfortable for both of them....

Oh he was angry about it....but it only caused more conflict for the A.....the fantasy life had cracks and they got wider and wider the longer it went on!

I don't know if that helps at all....every situation is different in many ways yet overall completely the same!!

Let me know if I can clarify anything for you....I tend to get long winded!

Shugah

Shugah,

You are definitely not long winded, you say what is needed and I appreciate that to no end. You are right she shows cracks and chinks in her armor and that is all. The signs are all there that a fall is coming and everyone around her knows it. I just hope I can keep something alive inside me for her for as long as it is going to take.

She is doing things and spending money like she hit a jackpot or something. New car, season tickets to basketball games for her the OM and two extras supposedly for the kids but they won't go near the guy yet. DD has brought the subject up and I asked her not to support the OM in this and she has yet to decide how she will go on this. I know it her mother's way of dangling a carrot but will DD see this? All of this stuff is being done on a receptionist's hourly wage. Hard times are coming but with the retirement and house funds she took in the D it could be a long time coming.

The amount of entitlement she feels in all of this is staggering. How could I have not seen any of this coming? Sure makes me feel like an idiot sometimes. Or a very self consumed H. Not sure which is more appropriate on any given day. I do know if she would have said something, anything, I would have worked on whatever she wanted to make things better in our M.

I have listened to you and Mimi's advice and gone completely dark with her. I do still expose to anyone that asks. I have quit searching for that elusive magical person who can cut thru her fog and reach the old W. That person only resides within her skin. Time is both an ally and an enemy for me now. She needs the time to hit bottom while at the same time I am moving farther and farther away from her emotionally. Not where I ever envisioned our life together to end up at all.

Thank you for helping give me some hope because I still want hope in my life and I know she is and always will be the love of my life. For it to end like this would be a shame on both of us.

Hang in there, DUK...

Time is actually YOUR FRIEND...never YOUR ENEMY....

You seem to be doing a lot better IN THE DARKNESS...

This will actually help lock away any love that you have left for her...

Thanks Mimi,

Yes it is better out here in the dark. Less and less thoughts dominated by her A and the fallout from it. I actually defended her for some unknown reason last week. Her best friend has been in MC for over a year and finally threw in the towel and got a D. Friends family is close to my parents and told my Dad EX talked her friend into D. I told him about all the MC and work friend had done to try and make it work first and said EX probably had nothing to do with it.

Mind you this friend of EX's is the one who told me what EX had done was easier on me that what she was going thru in MC with her H. I don't like this gal much and I think she used my EX as her guinea pig to see what would happen. She is the one encouraging her to "find herself" and to be "her own person" Now we have two lost souls out there feeding off of one another. Not a healthy environment for rational thought for either of them.

In the mean time I seem to have found a some contentment with my life and have been enjoying things I would not have been able to do if still married. I get so many invites from friends to do things now life is a whirlwind of activity. I can't remember the last meal I cooked at home other than DD's birthday dinner. That has been the only bright spot in this for me. Old friends have stepped up and and shown how good a friend they really are.

bumping this so I can find it!!!

Lost,

I'm glad you bumped this up, I've been doing it myself recently. Maybe we could change the thread title to "lostinthesite" in your honor.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Things do travel quickly around here!!

I hope this helps someone...

I was thinking about this after posting on Eav's thread...

My H was a cake-eater..wanting to keep me on the side in case it didn't work out with the OW..yes, that was how he felt when I went into PLAN B. I was considered the alternative to her...

Unless I went into PLAN B, he would have strung me along as long as possible until he was finished with her or decided that he wanted to be with her longterm..

So the KEY PARTS OF THE PLAN B LETTER were my communication that I was REMOVING MYSELF FROM THE TRIANGLE, I DID NOT WANT HIM UNTIL HE WANTED ME and I WOULD MOVE ON WITH MY LIFE AS IF HE DID NOT WANT ME....These are the parts that he remembered. It blew his mind that I was no longer sitting around waiting for him. He thought that I would sit there in our house WAITING for him for as long as it took...

Then, I made a move that proved I was serious..Put the house up for sale and sold it...

So the KEY PARTS of the LETTER were not what he had to do to reconcile. He was no dummy. He knew that. The KEY PARTS indicated that I wouldn't be sitting around waiting for him FOREVER and most importantly, most importantly, most importantly, I GAINED HIS RESPECT. He began to experience me over there in his HE//HOLE as a WOMAN OF SUBSTANCE..AS A VALUABLE JEWEL that HE MIGHT LOSE....