Hi MrsEagle, I sure do wish you would consider taking this excellent post and starting another thread so it could get the proper attention from other folks who are experienced. I bet many of them have felt exactly the way you do and could give you some excellent feedback. Justlearning, for one, has superb advice for withdrawing spouses.

I do want to understand why you don't enjoy being around him. What is he doing that is bothersome to you? Did you once enjoy being together?

You mention alot of RULES that you are required to follow and that you are only "allowed" to do housework at certain times. Allowed by WHOM? Have you agreed to these rules? Can you help me understand how this came to be?

Yes, I want the job to help with the bills. I still doing what I have to do for the family. Husband was pissed this morning, but did say I could take the job until a dau job comes through. I talked withe the kids and DD says yes take the job and DS does't like the idea that I won't kiss him goodbye for school, but he understands that I'm waiting for the day job.

Yes, I would like to hear about the "rules" too. MB is NOT a concentration camp where you are sent when you are a bad girl. What is up with all of this????

Melodylane,

I don't understand about other threads. I have agreed to the rules set by husband because if I don't we argue that I'm doing my part for the family.

We did enjoy time together before, because I turned a blinds eye to when husband would tell me not to do something. That's just how he is, I told myself and move on. I have that I don't have to always please everyone else. I have discovered courage, confidence and finally in my skin except when it comes to husband he breaks down again.

Mrs Eagle, if you go to the top of the page and click the "post" button, you can start a new subject that will be all your own. With your own thread, it would get the proper attention and the proper folks could devote themselves to helping YOU. But they won't see you down here at the bottom of Chuck's thread.

Mel and E-wife - I bumped hers to the top.

I gotcha. What would you rather be doing that you think would be more effective? See, your marital recovery needs to be a MUTUAL effort that you both entusiastically agree upon. What do you want to happen?

Never mind, I didn't realize that you had your own thread already. It would be nice to take this discussion there so you can get some personal attention.

Chuck, I just read her thread and I have an idea what the problem is. I don't think she feels like an equal in this relationship, but as a kid who must follow orders, rules, and is "allowed" to do things. How galling for an adult woman to endure. I would be in full bolt rebellion personally. I would do everything in my power to undercut you because I would be in DEFENSE MODE.

Not only would such an atmosphere cause me to be resentful and defensive but it would KILL any sexual desire I had. She sounds like she has reentered a prison and wants to REBEL. And the only way she knows how to REBEL is withhold the things she knows you want the most: a sincere committment to your marriage.

Can I make a suggestion? Marriage Builders materials are wonderful for a marriage, but when they are used as a baseball bat over the head of a recovering WS, they are downright destructive. And that is what I see happening here. I see you going beyond even educating to her, to the point of setting RULES. A major lovebuster!

It is for that reason, I would suggest dropping the "rules." Let this play out like it should, and INSTEAD put your main focus on your treatment of her. Elevate her her to a FULL partner in this marriage. I think if you do this, she may come to WANT to work on your marriage and not feel like she is a prisoner at the point of a gun.

It is like a vicious cycle. The more you try to control, the more she resists, which causes you to control more, and brings on more anger. Stop the cycle by treating her differently.

Well, we just lost about 3K a month due to her retirement, credit cards high due to frequent trips back and forth since D-Day. Prior to A she was going to apply for jobs 6 mos out and most likely be able to start work right after coming here, she just started to apply for jobs since her arrival. Our original plan was to pay off bills, install pool here, and have another garage built. Now, since she keeps howling for D, I won't do that until I get a good feel for the direction we are going in the marriage, also I refuse to pay off debt and let her off the hook for her fair share in the event of D, i.e....protecting my resources for the family.

I had to trash all previous plans due to her demand for a D and the need to protect myself and the kids financially.

Upon closing on the sale of the house in OKC, no later than 28 Feb, I will have the cash to pay off bills, but very strongly feel the need to keep that cash in reserve for legal fees. So I am at a stand still as far as future financial planning and am either going to have to pay off everything or at least quite a bit to get us under an amount that can be handled with my income or suffer through it.

To me it's a connundrum, where your help and the help from others here becomes invaluable is, not being in the midst of it all you can look at it with a clear head and sharp eyes and provide valuable and much valued advice. I am definitely too close and focused to be able to see the forest for the trees.

I hope this makes sense and I really hope you can point out the forrest to me. WW can't or won't do it.

I agree with Melody. Also how can your wife have confidence in the marriage when you are putting everything on hold until she commits? I'm not telling you to put in a pool, but you will need to pay your bills and maintain your credit, no matter what.

Mel,

I got ya and understand. What she is talking about rules is I set boundaries, she agreed to tehm before Christmas, they were based on what Not_so_Unique had posted on one of her threads. I will post a copy when I get to the house. I have not enforced them as she has read them a couple of times, but doesn't know what they said. A lot like talking to a brick wall.

I was asked to not post on her thread and have not. I don't mind her posting on mine or even reading it for that matter just so long as she can remember that most of my thread is venting and an expression of my true feelings.

I would love to see some real progress, I'm a charge ahead kind of guy. When she says I've controlled her ask her for specifics, I have and she can't remember. I will go into more detail later, I jsut got called into a meeting with our customer.

Chuck, can't there be a middle ground? Where you keep a cash reserve and pay bills to current status? I understand your need to protect yourself and agree with your thinking. But you still have to pay the bills regardless of whether you get D or not. However, doing it this way HURTS your entire family by damaging your credit score.

And it isn't an effective leverage to get her to back off her D threat.

I'm not using it as leverage, just going by what my lawyer told me a D would cost, then an estimate of custody battle. Due to the properties involved, 1 less now, but still 2 in different states, plus children, it gets expensive.

I could pay all the bills off, I have been paying way over minimum since I've been doing the bills. Taking a 3K cut in monthly cash flow does tend to put one behind the 8 Ball.

If she would show anything concrete I would press and pay all, but as long as it's a "day by day, tiny steps" thing I can't push 20 - 30K into it only to have to spend the rest on lawyers.

I am my only support, parents are dead, siblings don't have a lot to help out with a D, I have been beat over the head with a D so often since D-Day, I am not willing to give her even the slightest bit of financial help only to have to eat it as a "lesson learned" I learned that lesson in my last D. She, on the other hand has her mother who would probably take a 2nd on her house to make sure her daughter is happy. Other than that she has said she will not get involved and WW needs to do what makes her happy.

Sometimes I think it would be better to cut an run, minimize losses, and move on, but I can't do that to my kids. If I leave I will become a black hole in space and my kids don't deserve that, but I can't be with them either as it would be a long term trigger for me.

I could start over from scratch, but to me that is accepting even more punishment for something I had no control over. I have been in the WS position in my last marriage and know, from a male's POV, what is involved, but apparently from a female POV, it is very different.

Yes I can cave and put every penny I have into becoming solvent, and when she actually does file for D I will be even more in debt and she will get away scott free from any debt except legal fees. Either way I lose and for what, her weaknesses and indiscretions? Her desire to punish me for transgressions unknown to me?

Honestly where can I go from here? Yet again she is in control and has turned me into a smoking hole that the MOAB would be proud of. Where is she? Coming out of this smelling like a rose. Yet she doesn't see where she is in control, what she desperately wants, hence the "All thrust and no vector" comments.

H*** she won't even throw me a bone, but expects me to do all the work. I am tired, I've been doing all the work, carrying the load of the family, now the load of an A, I need a break! She can give me a break but refuses.

Controlling is telling her I don't think sky diving is a good idea, why, you have 2 children at home, a 3 and a 5 year old.

Flying in a helicopter with a bunch of army guys is never a good idea.

I'm tired and I don't feel like country dance lessons right now, my workload at work along with my TDYs are too much right now.

And the one that has always caused me problems, I really don't think it is appropriate for you to have all these male friends, most of whom are single.

So from my POV that is what she call controlling. There is probably more, but I can't think of any others right now. Those are the ones she beats me over the head about. I felt I was trying to protect her and our marriage, obviously a waste of time.

This is the boundaries letter I provided to my W.

WW,

You said the chaplain said the we must set boundaries, well here are my boundaries. Even though you are trying only for our kids, I hope you will agree to these boundaries.

What It Will Take

1. A no contact letter, explaining that you will not communicate with him again—ever. No loopholes. No contact for the rest of your life. Period. No defending him period! [color:"red"]DONE
[/color]

2. Become a wife and mother again, no matter what the cost to your “FEELINGS’ and whether you have any “FEELINGS” or not. Stop hurting me and our children.

3.• Become completely honest. Our marriage will not survive further deception. This not only includes not lying to me or the kids, but means giving me the whole truth, not just parts that will make you look good, or avoid confrontation, no omissions of any parts of the whole story. No lies, no evasion, no covering, just the full and complete truth.

4. Continue to keep me informed of your daily schedule, routine and movements, stop complaining about it, you volunteered to do it.

5. Carry your cell phone with you at all times. Call me if you are going to be late or have a change in plans, be completely transparent. Call me if you are awake in the middle of the night, sometimes just talking helps. After you move here wake me if you are awake and PLEASE TALK TO ME!

6. Lose your bad and negative attitude and develop a positive winning attitude about us, our family and rebuilding our marriage.

7. Get used to doing things that you feel make you miserable right now, as you get into the habit of doing these things you will become more comfortable with them and maybe just maybe you will learn to enjoy them as much as you used to.

8.• Commit to marriage counseling with me and individual counseling, whether by phone or in person. After all this trauma, we need every possible advantage in order to recover our marriage.

9.• Keep in close touch the way you have been. I am willing to do the same to reassure you.

10.• Every possible precaution must be taken to erase him from our lives and make contact with him so difficult that you would have to make great efforts and great deception to even make it possible. This includes, but is not limited to:

11. Change your home phone number [color:"red"] DONE [/color]

12. Block his number from your phone. [color:"red"]Doesn't have new # [/color]

13. Get caller-ID-blocking blocked so there are no blocked numbers on the phone bill.[color:"red"]Doesn't have new # [/color]


14. Block all of his email addresses from all of your email addresses and give me your passwords.[color:"red"]Doesn't have new email [/color]


15. Delete him from every possible contact list you have.

16. Get rid of anything he has given you, cards, memorabilia, anything at all. [color:"red"] DONE [/color]


17. I will continue to deal with all money issues. [color:"red"] DONE [/color]


18. Do not mention him in the context of the present. He has no more part in our lives.

19. It is as if he is now dead, and has no place among the living. (The only time his name will ever come up is in dealing with something affair-related.)

20. Tell me immediately if there is ever contact of any kind. If you are honest about this, we will simply find a way to prevent it from happening again through more precautions.

21. If this agreement is broken, at that point I will not allow you to remain in our home and you will have to give up all access to our children as I will not have their lives damaged and tainted by this type of behavior ever again. And, to be very blunt, depending on the level of dishonesty, especially in the face of all these precautions, I might very well decide to end things with you at that point and leave the marriage without notice or contact. I will leave and never return

22. You need to have some glimmer of how badly this affair has hurt me, in spite of how calm I have been in talking to you about it. I will not let this continue. There will be no accidents or second chances. There will be no excuses, and no reasons for any type of contact, at any time, ever. No matter how much trouble it might be to put these things into place, it is little enough to prevent the kind of agony I have suffered, and am still suffering now. I will not risk being hurt like this again. I love you enough that I am willing to try again, and I hope and pray you will decide to take that chance and accept that risk as I have.

23. I will never physically hurt you or our children, you are not worth jail or legal trouble to me.

Here is a list of things that you must do:
1. You must be totally honest with me about everything
2. You must answer every question that I ask truthfully and fully.
3. You must do everything in your power to prove to me that I am the one that you want to be with.
4. You must prove your love to me...You must be patient, gentle, compassionate and understanding.
5. You must feel my pain.
6. You must fully understand the devastation that You caused our children and I and our family.
7. You must accept full responsibility for your actions.
8. You must stop all contact with OM, write a No Contact for Life letter that we both agree to and send it, and not try to protect him. [color:"red"]DONE
[/color]
9. You must reassure me that it is OK to ask questions.
10. You must reassure me that you will not drive me away by doing the things that are necessary to heal.
11. You must recognize when I’m struggling or experiencing a trigger and comfort me.
12. You must be able to tell me how sorry You are and show you care.
13. You must re-enforce to me, that I am not responsible.
14. You must put your own feelings of guilt and shame aside and help me heal first.
15. You must reconnect emotionally, mentally, and physically with me and stay connected.
16. You must work on rebuilding trust. No secrets. No privacy.
17. You must be willing to seek counseling.
18. You must learn what is and is not acceptable when communicating with the opposite sex...You must establish boundaries and not cross them.

Here is a list of things that I must do:
1. I will give you the necessary time to prove your love and commitment to me. [color:"red"] DONE, although it seems that it hasn't been done and WW needs more time, so be it, take as much time as you need[/color]

2. I will be open with my feelings. [color:"red"] DONE, at a very hgih cost, still paying [/color]
3. I will ask the questions that are important to me. [color:"red"] Can't will start WWIII [/color]

4. I won’t be afraid that you will drive me away while you are trying to heal.

5. I will stop blaming myself for your actions. I am in no way responsible...even if I am Attila the Hun!
6. I must be able to let you connect with me. (this one takes time) [color:"red"] Trying [/color]
7. I must continue checking up on you in order to let you rebuild trust. [color:"red"] Gave up as it makes WW mad[/color]
8. I must be willing to seek counseling so that I do not get stuck in one of the stages of recovery such as anger or depression. [color:"red"] DONE [/color]


Things you need to know
1. I love you with all my heart.
2. You are in an infatuation, which is the same thing as being hooked on crack so far as your brain works.
3. When you come down from the infatuation, you are going to experience emotions of guilt, betrayal, remorse and a dozen other things that will make your joy trip right now simply not worth it.
4. You are hooked up with a person willing to destroy a marriage a family our children’s lives and so are you.
5. If you do not quit lying to yourself and terminate the affair - both contact and in your mind, I am going to leave without notice or contact. If you fail to work on the marriage and continue to press for a divorce, I will petition the court for full custody of our children as, by your actions, lying, cheating, and bringing another man into our marriage, you are an unfit parent.
6. I am doing this for me and our kids. I will help you if you will let me.
7. I will not be your doormat.
8. I love you and I always will, but I will not live a lie with you nor will I stand by and watch you lying to yourself or hurting yourself, me or our kids, period, end of discussion. [color:"red"] [/color]

Maybe boundaries were too much too soon, but I thought after 4 mos of NC this was not too much to ask. Maybe she should just be allowed to do whatever she pleases whenever she pleases.

Please let me know if you think these boundaries are out of line. As stated in an earlier post I used the boundaries from Neaks post as the basis for thes, I thought they were in line with MB. I guess not. I have not enforced any of them, nor have I bashed anyone over the head with them.

Todays stuff started as I couldn't tell her to take the job or not take it as I didn't know enough about where we were going and how we were going to get there.

Apparently this post is what started the deal earlier today. Venting and hoping for some clues.


Over lunch she let me know she has contacted a lawyer and had an appt with him at 2:00. She cancelled and rescheduled for Friday.

Eagle15


Well, they're not really boundaries because boundaries are about actions you control.

This part:


Was the only part that was a boundary. The rest of it was a list of demands or rules.

As for out of bounds, well, it's hard to tell. If that's all you'll accept then that's all you'll accept. I think you are entitled to set those requirements. It's only fair of you to be honest about it and tell her what those requirements are, too. So, if that's the only thing you'll accept then it's totally appropriate.

I, personally, wouldn't acquiese to a list of demands like that - I like myself too much. You seem to ask for a lot of things you aren't willing to give - are you sure you're building a partnership here? This sounds like punishment for her affair, to me. It's honestly hard to reconcile the things you wrote with any kind of love. Anger, I'd buy. But love? No, none of that sounds loving to me.

So, what's with the rules about reading this website, etc? Is all that exaggeration or are you really micromanaging her time like that?


I'm sorry to hear of this development.

You know, maybe I'm not qualified to comment on this thread because I'm neither the WS or the BS but I AM married and I can tell you that there's no way that list of boundaries would have gone over well with me. I think you do need and deserve some protections and you need and deserve some help healing. I don't think you're entitled to punish your wife and inflict pain on her or be cruel to her even known that she's put you through the wringer. And, that's what I think you're doing - whether you mean to or not. Two wrongs don't make a right.

I wish you both the best.

Mys

Eagle - Very often the WS feels they are doing all they can in the marriage just by being there.

Your list of boundaries/rules is a bit long. Somehow she needs to be an equal partner in this. She is telling us that she has been alone and has learned to value herself. Now she is back with you, and I can see why she is feeling like she doesn't want to be there.

Chuck, I have to agree with mys, this list sounds like a punishment. Sure, there are some things on there that she should naturally agree to in order to protect you, but it reads a like prison sentence written for a criminal, rather than an equal partner in a marriage.

Many of these are things that should be POJAed and others are feelings that she will come into once you get into recovery. Those can't be demanded of her. I think her reaction has been resentment and defensiveness, which has become a huge impediment to recovery.

And what does she mean about HAVING to read MB material, etc?

Would you want to consider starting over?