p.s. what does she say about contacting the lawyer?

I asked her to read and post in an attempt to get her to talk to someone. I never demanded anything. I gave her the boundaries most is direct from another member's post, I thought it was OK, I haven't enforced anything as even talking R causes mushroom cloud over the house.

Her version of POJA is I want this period. If I showed you the original NC letter and what was actually sent along with the emails that flew between here and OKC I think you might wonder what was going on. I tried to discuss the difference between AF mandated NC and actual NC, she sees no difference. She argued about wording I asked that she leave in the phrase it's the right thing to do, she wanted it to read it's the suitable thing to do. That's her version of POJA.

Lawyer appt is now Friday, she wants to know where she stands, she called a lawyer while she was in OKC, don't know the outcome. She won't say anything so I really don't know.

Please understand she was in Japan for 2 years, started telling me she was going to stay in AF if she got promoted, not what do you think, this is what I'm going to do. She then went to OKC, I looked for jobs there, none to be had, she even found a house we liked and I would have loved to live in, I volunteered to quit my job and move there anyway. That is where the financial suicide thing came into play, from her not me. She missed promotion by like 12 points, said she wanted to stay another year to try to make E-7. Again I asked if we should move there, but now I was here in huntsville, would owe my company for the move, plus moving expenses to OKC. I would have gladly done that, no again, it woud be FS. Soooo as time goes by she continues to tell me she wants to stay and take another shot at E-7, I take this as abandonment, tell her so and suggest that if she voluntarily stays away from the family for another year, makes E-7 (she definitely would have) she would then have 4 more years obligation to the AF, there is no AF base in Huntsville, she doesn't want us with her as it would be FS, soo I say that would be a deal breaker, she wanted to know what that means I say get a lawyer, abandoning the family for an AF career is a definite deal breaker. She says she supported my career and I stayed for 24.5yrs, why can't she, I say you can if we are there, also we were living in the same house for our whole marriage. It's different when you are in another state, think us moving there is FS and a no go, and you want to stay away, voluntarily this time for an extended period of time. I need you, I love you, the kids need you, it's time to retire, I am extremely lonely and want you to retire and come home. So there you have it, as much of the story as I can put together right now. I'm sure you will get a different picture when she reads this, but this is how I saw it and how I reacted to her demand to stay in AF and away from the family.

Hopefully she will consider everything carefully. The two of you have the world by the tail right now. This should be the beginning of a wonderful new marriage.

I hope you will relax a little and let her be more of an equal partner in this.

Remember that article about enduring? If you can both hold on a little longer, the chances are way in your favor of having happy lives.

myschae,

I would have never thought of those boundaries/demands/whatever prior to the A and finding this website. I used another BSs letter as a guide. i am more than willing to POJA, but it takes 2, I have carried this burden for a while, I am tired, she has put forth very little effort and feels it's monumental. I screwed up, but nothing and I do mean nothing I could have done deserves the punishment that I have recieved over the past 4 months. I truly hope and pray you never have to find out what being a BS is like, I'd rather she shot me dead in cold blood. Being a BS is like the death of a thousand cuts, it never seems to stop, you can see the person you used to love standing ther watching your pain and knowing full well they are the cause of it, knowing full well they can fix it, but choosing to stand by and watch you bleed to death, just like they chose to have an A, lie about it and everything else. Please understand I DID NOT DO THIS TO MYSELF, IT WAS INFLICTED UPON ME, I DID NOT GET A VOTE!

I am trying very hard, probably too hard, btu I'm not one to stand by and let things go. I need to take action. But I can't because I have no control over the situation, I have been working on this for 4 months long distance, she said the right words read the books, but can't apply the knowledge, What Now!

Eagle - I know exactly how you feel. My WH ripped my heart out and didn't give a d*mn. What will happen if she doesn't get on board, is that you will lose your love for her.

Eagle15

Let me take this out of order.


You are absolutely right. I definitely understand that you are in pain. I'm not stranger to MB but I've mostly stayed over on the Emotional Needs board. I come here occasionally to see if there's a thread I can respond to. I won't respond to yours anymore if you don't want me to.


Absolutely right again. I really DO understand that you're in incredible pain.

The thing is, that right now because of your pain and understandable anger, YOU are the biggest barrier to a complete recovery of your marriage - not your wife! Other's have told you that your wife is moving through the stages of a WS - she's trying to work her way out of the fog. It's like she's trying to come back all the way from Pluto and she can only obey the laws of physics in how fast she moves.

I think everyone understands that you feel you're at the end of your rope and want this fixed right now today - make it stop but it's just not possible. That expectation, hope, desire, <whatever> is really doing nothing but adding to your frustration and causing further damage that is going to have to be fixed if you ever want to have a true partnership in marriage.


Seriously? What now is that you look over your budget (which I know is tight) and calculate the cost/benefit of getting some professional help. You both need some professional accountability. You, specifically, need a lot of help in managing your anger in healthy ways so that you're not taking it out on your wife - that's NOT going to help the situation. She, specifically, needs some help getting out of the fog and working towards recovering your marriage.


So, the whole bit about being assigned to read the website for hours in the morning and not being allowed to do other things is a misunderstanding? If so, I suggest you correct that misunderstanding right away. It's botching things up.


Some of it is OK. But a lot of it is completely contradictory and probably impossible given where she is right now.

For example:


You want her to be honest. Good!

But then you say:


What comes first? What if right now she DOESN'T want to be with you (because of your anger etc. and because of her withdrawal)? How can she possibly fulfill both your honesty requirement AND the requirement that she prove to you something that just isn't true (but might be true someday)?
There are other things that are the complete opposite of MB.
For example:

POJA says "Never do anything without the enthusiastic approval of both spouses."
She's one of the spouses. If she's doing things that make her miserable, that's the OPPOSITE of MB. She's going to build so much resentment about doing things that make her miserable that there's no possible WAY she'll ever learn to enjoy them. You can't fill her love bank that fast.

And, while we're on the subject, Eagle15... about SF. I just really think you'd be a lot better off if you developed a whole lot of patience in this area and stopped initiating until things are on firmer footing between you. I know it's not fair. But, right now, when you have sex there's no fulfillment part for her - in fact you're leaving her crying and upset by the experience. You're comparing having sex with her to having sex with a pound of liver (you can justify it all you want by saying you were being radically honest but we both know that's just a cover for you deciding to retaliate against her because you asked her a question and she answered in a way you didn't like.)

If having sex with her is about as fulfilling as having sex with liver for you, I can't imagine there's any fulfillment in it for you. There's no fulfillment in it for her - she's feeling used. That means that sex is serving some other purpose (punishment? control? release? What?) than establishing or maintaining a intimate bond with your partner and I think that's unhealthy and is going to cause more problems then it solves.
And, some of your requests are somewhat unreasonable in the impossible range:

Ok, that type of stuff is hard when you're in a stage of intimacy - no one is a mind reader. And, she can't be expected to know how to comfort you all the time.

Eagle15, your list has some really, really good things in it. It also has enough really outlandish or flat out contradictory things in it to render it an impossible standard and therefore not of much use. Why not consider Melody Lane's offer and start over on it?

Mys

Believer,

Done

myschae,

Very good points. The boundaries letter was taken from Not_so_Unique's post about her letter to her WH. The bottom part was taken from I believe Big kahunas thread about what a WS needs to do to recover and help a BS recover. All I thought MB stuf, obviously not. As far as my WW goes, 4 mos of her own personal space, her living in OKC, the kids and I in Huntsville, reading that I asked her to do, can't make her do anything, if I could I would have made her stop and think before she chose to have an A. I thougt I was doing MB stuff, what I've read here and in all of the books. I thought she was a little more on board with this, as Former President Reagan said "You thought wrong!"

If you read all of my posts you will see that I have been at this for over 4mos, D-Day 14 Oct 05, NC 15 Oct 05 (AF mandated). Prior to that we had been seperated for almost 4 years due to her assignments and her fear of "Financial Suicide".

So my patience is running a little thin. She has rewritten our marital history, accused me of forcing her to read and post, again I can't make her do anything. She continually stated that she is not in control, she is not driving this situation. If not then who is??? "All thrust and no vector" Whenever I try to take control and get things done, I get attitude and anger, so I am just along for the ride now.

She has done everything to destroy this family and marriage, she sees Divorce as the only option, and says "the kids will get over it, children are resilient."

I have been seeing an MC/IC, she went a few times, the last time the MC said she needed to try to meet all ENs including SF, she read it that the MC and I were buddies, the "Good Old Boy Network" was in full swing and I put him up to telling her that. Now based on the 3 previous visits this was his conclusion, based on what she had told him, sooooo go figure. Now she won't go see him. His wife is also a Dr. WW interviewed her after I asked my IC t fill her in on the sitch so she would not be blind when WW interviewed her, WW was aware of this prior to setting up the interview. After the interview she thought ICs wife was in cahoots with IC and I and soooo she will not set up an appointment. Hasn't even tried to find an IC.

If you think I'm full of venom you should hear her when she goes off. She went off in MC a couple of times, now my IC says he doesn't blame me for being angry, he would have jumped ship long ago. Understand this man is very religious, believes in MB principle as they are parallel to the religious program he uses. He is very pro marriage, but sees my anger as a natural result of verbal and mental abuse at the hands of WW.

Having SF is an issue, I can and will do without, been doing that for almost 4 years nothing new here, so she doesn't feel bad about anything, heaven forbid she should ever feel bad. Not a problem, her feelings come first always have always will, again not a problem!

Here is the quote part of my boundaries came from:

The rest came from a WS recovery guide that I can't find right now.

MYSCHAE,

Please continuie to post to me as all POVs are needed. I can't get anything from WW.

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/sho...;page=0#2685515

Link to other post about what WS must do.

Eagle15


The parts that you posted at the bottom of this were the parts that I thought were really, really good. I specified the parts I thought were somewhat contradictory - if you ask for honesty, then you can't also ask for her to tell you specific things that might not be true. It just doesn't make any kind of sense. Either she tells you what you want to hear all the time or she tells you the truth. Hopefully the two things coincide but, when they don't, something has to take priority.

If it were me, I'd pick honesty even if it meant she wasn't saying the things I wanted to hear.


Yes. You taking control and 'getting things done' is a very bad way to build a partnership. At the end of the day, what good is any of this going to do you if you don't end up with a good marital partnership?

I'm really not posting here to bust your chops or make you feel worse than you all ready do. I really want you to build a good marriage out of the ashes of your old one and, in my opinion, a GOOD/GREAT marriage is a partnership - not someone being in control and getting things done.

Now, I really do understand the problem of her not wanting to partner with you and how frustrating that has to be given what she's done. Her not partnering with you is not your fault, your responsibility, or your issue to work on and fix. All you can do is present yourself as the best partner that you can possibly be.

If, after all that, she still absolutely will not build a partnership with you, then you have some more tough choices to make. It's not pretty but there it is.


I'm sure she has her anger issues too. But, I'm worried about YOUR anger. You're entitled to it but, man, it's a bad deal if you can't find some healthy outlet to work through it and get it out of your system. Stuff like that starts to affect your overall health, you know?


*sighs*

This isn't about making her feel good or you feel bad or you sacrificing so she doesn't have to. Read what I wrote. It doesn't sound as though you're getting any of the fulfillment out of sex. And, it certainly doesn't sound as though she is, either. Good gracious, you can't possibly feel better about doing that than not doing it at all. Or, maybe you do (it was really just a suggestion).

Sex and intimacy is something that you should, at the very least, enjoy. When it turns into a power struggle, it can taint that area of your lives forever and cause troublesome scars that just don't ever heal right. You guys all ready have enough of that going on. I'd save you from any additional ones you don't have to get, if I could.


And, at some point they might be appropriate. But, right now, it's too much to focus on all at once and, as I said, some of it is so contradictory you're just asking for trouble.

Once again, if it were me, I'd take anything out that puts her in a double bind and gives her an excuse to be dishonest. The LAST thing you ever need to hear is "I said that because you told me I had to tell you x,y,z even if it wasn't true." UGH.

Mys

Thank you, very strong food for thought. I jsut can't think right now, I'll have to give it a day to digest. Until then I'm very quiet.

Eagle, this struck me as it did myschae:

Why not just get out a pledge paddle, whack her in the butt, and demand that she say "Thank you sir, may I please have another?"

Okay, the Animal House analogy was going a bit far as I am sure you would not physically abuse her. But the emotional abuse you inflict on her by demanding that she get used to doing things that make her miserable is a bit much, IMVHO.

You also demanded, "feel my pain." Well, if there is one thing I've learned here, it is that no WS can fully feel the BS's pain. BS's, including yourself, have said it over and over. You are asking the impossible there, also where you demanded that she recognize immediately that you are being triggered and that she comfort you. She's not a mind-reader, Eagle, and have you thought that maybe her best efforts at comforting you might not work? I know some of my best efforts to comfort/reassure my BH did not have the desired effect.

I don't know what to tell you. It's like you're trying to control her thoughts and feelings. It can't be done.

Speaking of control, neither of you has full control. You can only control yourselves, not the other. Considering your threats to cut her off from the kids if she doesn't recover to your standards in the time allotted, I can't say that I blame her for seeking legal advice. Probably just trying to see what her rights are. Would you not do the same if the sitch were reversed and she threatened you?

And on the MC/IC thing: The practice we went to does not allow the same counselor to be both MC to the couple and IC to one of the partners. Probably for the very reason your wife had problems with your set-up. There needs to be complete objectivity there with the MC -- neither partner should fear being ganged up on.

Again, I don't know what to say... you are still relatively early post-NC, there are demands being given, and she still sounds fogged/WDish.

GBH'

[color:"blue"]This is where I got the feel my pain, as I've stated before, maybe this was too soon, cart before the horse, but I doo see a lot of people on here quoting and sending people to see Suzet's post so for you here it is.
[/color]
Suzet*
Member



Reged: 06/11/04
Posts: 1778
Great article: What the WS/BS Must Do to Reconcile
#2685515 - 04/07/05 02:17 AM Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply



WHAT THE WS/BS MUST DO TO RECONCILE

JUST GET OVER IT ALREADY!
How many times has that been said to you? If it has been said to you even once, then that is a big red flag! No one has the right to tell this to you. If it is your therapist telling you this, then you need a new therapist because obviously this one has no understanding of infidelity. If it is your spouse telling you this, then they have no understanding of the devastation that they have caused.

In order to "get over it", you and your spouse must be given the proper tools and a map. I do not feel that you can successfully navigate the road from infidelity towards healing without these two things.

You do not really "get over it"...you can move beyond it, but you will carry the scars for life as a reminder. You do not forget, but you can forgive...if and only if you and your spouse have the tools and the map.

The former cheating spouse has the biggest responsibility in the healing process. They hold the key for the healing of you and your marriage.

Your spouse must be willing to make it their mission in life to heal you...no matter how long it takes. They should not have to even ask you what you need to help you heal...they should seek professional advice from others and start implementing it immediately. Maybe down the road they will need to seek your own personal advice. You hold the timeline to your own healing.

They need to explain to the children, if they are old enough, that they have hurt you terribly and that they are doing everything to help you heal. They need to tell the children that it is not the children's fault or the betrayed spouses fault. If they see the betrayed spouse getting angry at the former cheating spouse, that this is normal and well deserved and part of healing. They are to be told that they are not to blame the betrayed spouse for their emotional outbursts toward the cheating spouse and that the betrayed spouse should be commended for being willing to give them another chance because they do not deserve it.

In order for your marriage to successfully survive these are some things that your spouse must do:

1. He must be totally honest with you about everything
2. He must answer every question that you ask truthfully and fully.
3. He must do everything in his power to prove to you that you are the one that he wants to be with.
4. He must prove his love to you...he must be patient, gentle, compassionate and understanding.
5. He must feel your pain.
6. He must fully understand the devastation that he caused you.
7. He must accept full responsibility for his actions.
8. He must stop all contact with OP and not try to protect them.
9. He must reassure you that it is OK to ask questions.
10. He must reassure you that you will not drive him away by doing the things that are necessary to heal.
11. He must recognize when your struggling or experiencing a trigger and comfort you.
12. He must be able to tell you how sorry he is and show you.
13. He must re-enforce to you, that you are not responsible.
14. He must put his own feelings of guilt and shame aside and help you heal first.
15. He must reconnect emotionally, mentally, and physically with you and stay connected.
16. He must work on rebuilding trust. No secrets. No privacy.
17. He must be willing to seek counseling.
18. He must learn what is and is not acceptable when communicating with the opposite sex...he must establish boundaries and not cross them.

Here is a list of things that you must do:

1. Give him the necessary time to prove his love and commitment to you.
2. Be open with your feelings.
3. Ask the questions that are important to you.
4. Don't be afraid that you will drive him away while you are trying to heal.
5. Stop blaming yourself for his actions. You are in no way responsible...even if you are Attila the Hun!
6. You must be able to let him connect with you. (this one takes time)
7. You must continue checking up on him in order to let him rebuild trust.
8. You must be willing to seek counseling so that you do not get stuck in one of the stages of recovery such as anger or depression.

These are just a few of the things that I have thought of off the top of my head. With these things in place, then reconciliation can be successful. It is still a long journey, but with baby steps it can be achieved. For me, with all these things in place it took about 1 1/2 years to get to a really comfortable place. Without a majority of these things, I do not see how reconciliation can be successful.

If you were to decide to climb Mt Everest and you looked in the phone book under expeditions and called a company and told them that you wanted to climb Mt Everest and they said great. Then you would ask them how to do it. If their reply was to "just get over it", then I am sure that you would call some other company. You would know that it would require the proper tools and a map and a team approach. Well, you are facing a mountain that you need and want to climb. You cannot "just get over it". It doesn't happen that way. It will take the proper tools and a map and team work.

The majority of the things that I mentioned must take place from BOTH spouses before a successful reconciliation takes place. I am also only addressing reconciliation here, however the betrayed spouse has other options. If your spouse is doing EVERYTHING that has been recommended by the therapist to help you heal and you have made NO progress after say 1 year, then the betrayed spouse probably needs a new therapist who can help her better evaluate the situation and help her to start giving her spouse credit for what he is doing or come up with other options rather than reconciliation. Some betrayed spouses cannot reconcile no matter what their spouse does, but they may need therapy to move beyond the infidelity anyway.

If after 6 mos, the betrayed spouse has NOT progressed and the former cheating spouse is NOT doing his part, then there is no reason to expect any progress from the betrayed spouse toward reconciliation. Each person has a role in the reconciliation process...including knowing when enough is enough. I would never expect a former cheating spouse to be able to hang in there after 1 1/2 to 2 years of doing EVERYTHING recommended and seeing NO progress from the BS. I would also never expect a betrayed spouse to hang on for years if her spouse is doing NOTHING to help her heal.

I believe that forgiveness is independent of the cheater helping you heal. Forgiveness is a gift you give yourself...not the other person.

In the early stages the former cheater needs to find out from professionals what to do to help you heal. The wounded spouse is often in no condition to be able to know this in the beginning. Once the wounded spouse is down the road towards recovery, then they will be able to fine tune what is needed, but initially...no way.

Edited to change the subject topic

Edited by Suzet* (04/07/05 04:37 AM)

[color:"blue"] Also since I am at work and don't keep a copy of SAA, LB, and HNHN here I will have to find the reference later and post it this evening. It does say the WW should do things to try to reconnect to BH and if memory serves it does say that while a WS may be uncomfortable at first, maybe even not want to do it you should at least try and do it. The more you do it the more you reconnect and the more you get used to it, and eventually the more you will enjoy it. Now if you take that same logic and stand it next to what most WSs say around here about the first time PA with OP, the more they do it the easier it gets, tie this into the addiction theory and WA LA you have the addiction, the enjoyment and the reason why it works as well as the reason WSs have a hard time getting away from the OP. Wooooo Hoooo now you have it!

If this comes across as condescending, (my best british accent "Sorry"), Sorry, but I've been taking a beating over this, I have not tried to enforce this as I don't want a nuclear exchange in my house. How, you might ask, do I know this would cause nukes in the house? Just mentioning it causes nukes to rain down on my head!

I put it together trying to be efficient and put a lot of stuff in one letter, sorry, my bad, but she reads very little and only when she is ready so I try to get everything at once as opposed to having to wait 6 mos or more for a response.

I am being as patient as I can, but the lies about trying were just that lies. I truly thought we were further along and she was a little more on board with this, as opposed to what I now know, she is hanging on by a thread waiting me out trying to force me to D. If it comes to D, and we have discussed this, I will do my very best to make her suffer more than I have. Do I want to do that? NO!!! Will I? You can take it to the bank, I certainly will. She knows this and is apparently OK with it. But if she continues along the path she is on I will spare no expense at trying to ruin her, and to quote her, "even if the kids and I have to live in a cardboard box!" I will not have my kids asking me why I didn't fight or fight harder. I already have that one coming very soon from DD21 from my XW.[/color]

Eagle...see my post on your wife's thread.

Seriously, I absolutely can understand the hurt and anger that all of this creates...and can feel it in both of your threads.

BUT...unless the two of you learn to DEAL with that anger without attacking each other, you may as well just give up now. ONE of you has to stop reacting, and start thinking and acting without attacking!!!!

I'm sorry...but I really think you need to give this some thought. If both of you do nothing more than try to hurt the other person, and neither one LISTENS to the other person without learning to ignore their own pain and trying to help resolve the issue instead...then there really is no hope, because you have NOTHING to build from.

Give it some thought. How can you ask her to quit DJ'ing and LB'ing when you can't do the same thing?

Myschae

I have threads under Eagle15Tooo.

Eagle
I know the boards have been hot lately with the posts and judgements, along with spouses responding on each others threads.
As a BS to a BS PLEASE take a look at your recent posts. Really look at them. I know you are in pain, guess what? so is she. Think about that.
It seems that you have gotten angry, and in that anger you are DJing and LBing. WHAT DO YOU WANT? Do you want to be right? Do you want to make her do what you want?
YOU CANNOT CONTROL HER
You can however chose to control YOURSELF
SHE CANNOT CONTROL YOU
She can however control herself

You are both hurt.
You both are hurting each other and your children in the process.
Please take a step back and listen. Just listen.

Hearing is not listening. Listen and learn from each other.
From the little I have read on yours and your Ws posts I see alot of anger, frustration, resentment, and pain from both sides. I also see DJs, LBs, threats, etc.

Do you really mean you want a divorce? REALLY
If you do, then that is up to you.
Do you really want to hurt someone that you LOVED that much?
If so, then by all means enjoy.
Do you really want to hurt your children?
She is still thier mother, above all else, whether you divorce or not, she is still thier mother. And you and her will still have to be in contact with each other over the kids.
I wish you two PEACE.
JE

Sorry for the threadjack.

Myschae,

I saw your response on the thread I started. I did not respond because I was trying not to bring the thread back up again. Once again you made some very good points. I thank you for them.

And now back to your regular schedule thread.

Eagle15,

I see that your Taker has taken over. You are being given some good advice here, so I won't waste your time too much. But when you have the chance, check Tired_dad's posts. Although I like Tired_dad he made the same mistakes you are making now. If you don't change course, you will probably end up exactly where he is right now--now a good thing indeed.

Best

Do I want D? [color:"blue"] NO[/color]
Do I think it will be good for our children? [color:"blue"] NO[/color]
Do I think it will be good for either of us? [color:"blue"]NO[/color]
Do I think it is the right thing to do? [color:"blue"]NO[/color]
Do I really want to hurt someone that I LOVE that much? [color:"blue"]NO[/color]
Did she ever give me a vote in this? [color:"blue"]NO[/color]
Did she ever tell me we had serious problems? [color:"blue"]NO[/color]
Can I continue having divorce crammed down my throat? [color:"blue"]NO[/color]
Can I continue busting my A$$ and being threatened by D?[color:"blue"] NO[/color]
Can I survive a D? [color:"blue"]Certainly, been there Done that got a T-Shirt[/color]
Can our children survive a D? [color:"blue"]Probably, according to WW "children are resilient, they will get over it!" Not what I would want for them, but I didn't get a vote![/color]
Will D be easy? [color:"blue"]Sure, pay lawyers the amount they ask, don't fight, just give up and it will be over in a few weeks.[/color]
Will I regret it? [color:"blue"]You bet, but I have given all I have to give. She hasn't budged she has said from D-Day "Iwant out! I want a D!"[/color]
Will she regret it? [color:"blue"]Not in the least![/color]
Will I miss my kids? [color:"blue"]Terribly, it may kill me to be without them, but I must cut all contact to survive. I will be very dark, when they are adults they will know how to find me and I will explain it all. I will save these threads and give them to them when they come to me. [/color]

Mel,

I would consider starting over, but it takes 2 to tango, I ahve been doing the 1 thing way too long and WW refuses.

As you have probably seen on her threads she wants none of it, and what you see is very little compared to what I get at the house if I bring up R or M. Sooooooo we're off to see the wizard the wonderful wizard of D. Not by choice, but because I'm tired & all this is killing me.