SC,

When your H gets back ask him a simple question: What would he do if you OR your children were threatened or attacked?

I think I know the answer. I think you know the answer. I think he knows the answer.

I have only a few comments. First it IS appropriate to talk about this issue on this site because it clearly affects your abilities to love and be loved. It MUST be addressed. You need to be able to talk about it, and I am sure it took a lot for you to post it here. Congratulations on a first step. Keep talking to your MC and further if you are not in IC please go. You would be surprised how many people have come here over the years that had a spouse or they themselves were molested. You know what everyone of those molested had a hard time loving and attaching. You are pretty normal. Further, many of those that sought counseling and addressed these issues turned things around and I suspect you can as well. However, because it has been 30 years it will take awhile for you to tear your boundaries around. Please keep talking about this, please address it in counseling and I think you will find things will change.

My next question is does your H know about this? If not he needs to know. Further, if your counselor is familiar with victims of molestation, he should to explain to your H the different adaption strategies that such victims use to deal with this horrible situation. I am no expert but you sound pretty normal.

It is important for your H to understand this as best he can. Why? Because it does not excuse your A, it offers insight as to your reasoning and your inability to protect yourself and him.

Finally, please remember one thing and that is that your H is NOT your brother and never will be. He will protect you if you let him. That is why I keep telling you to take no bank holidays. You very likely have a hard time trusting the fact that someone loves you enough to protect you, and yet he does.

Please continue with the counseling, get your H up to speed via the counselor about the residual effects of molestation on peoples view point.

I told you once you may have a "hero" in the making. I truely believe that. But, I suspect given this information that with counseling, honesty, and work on your part, that your H is going to find that he is married to a wonderful woman one he would be a fool to lose. I suspect he sort of knows this, but when you take those barriers down, he will be amazed at the person he and YOU will find. I also said before you seem to me to be far more than you realize you are, and that this "far more" is all good, not bad.

Please keep working on this.

God Bless,

JL

I realize your "what do I do with this info" may have been rhetorical, but hey, this is a discussion forum, right?

Recall my earlier comment about how old memories start popping back up? It seems to me you are on the right track. Why be so hard on yourself for feeling bad about these memories....or for thinking them through again? (I remember re-hashing stuff that I thought had been long understood. And thinking, what is wrong with me I am a grown woman!) My guess is the memories are coming back because they are relevent to the situation and because you didn't deal with the info...aside from compartmentalizing it into a neat little inner box and securing it tight with lots of achievement and external self-confidence....yeah I know the game.

If I may be so bold as to give advice here: use the info. to discern a pattern in your behavior/coping skills.

Consider how you learned to deal with THAT problem and how you coped with your M unhappiness. See a pattern?

Consider if your parent's/brother's failure to protect also meant you didn't really learn to protect yourself, either. Any pattern?

At least this is how it rolled out for me, memories popped up...marinated...and then I began to discover patterns in my own coping skills/behavior...and a new realization about myself came along with it.

Roll with it....its all good...it really is. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

JL -- Once again, you amaze me with your insights. I remember the first couple of times you responded to my posts, I thought, "This guy is just a big meanie who doesn't understand anything." HA! Shows how much I knew.

My H does know about the molestagion. In fact, I told him a long time ago, before we were married. On one hand, I figured he had a right to know he was getting "damaged goods" -- give him a chance to cut bait and run if he wanted to. On the other hand, I really downplayed the whole thing. Like, "Here's why I have as little as possible to do with my brother. But otherwise, I'm just fine. Better than fine. Great... blah, blah, blah."

AH, you wrote:
BINGO! Somehow, I thought that WAS dealing with it. And yes, I'm now beginning to see some patterns.

JL, you wrote:

and...
You are so right about him. The way he has handled this whole thing continues to blow my mind. He even said to me recently that he's "just glad the OM was too much of an idiot to realize what he had a chance at." True to form, I'm having a hard accepting and trusting all the emotional and spiritual gifts that he's giving to me. But I'm trying. More importantly, I'm trying to give some back, too. Baby steps, right?

Thanks again, gang. You have no idea how much you're helping me. Or maybe you do. And that should make you feel really good about yourselves.

--SC

[color:"red"] damaged goods [/color]

Stop. Re-frame.

If this happened to one of your friend's children, would you refer to that child as "damaged goods"

I highly doubt you would

sooooooooo

extend the same love and respect toward yourself

re-frame this please .... what would you say about another little girl in a similar situation?

...Opp! Then comes the HARD part.... breaking the pattern.(without recreating the same pattern in disguise that is <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />!)

Pep-- Yes, I know you're right. I've known this intellectually for a long time. Really believing it -- feeling it -- is another matter. I'll have to work on it.

AH-- Yes, I know you're right too. Not sure how to go about doing that yet, but I guess that's why it's a work in progress.

--SC

SC,

You are getting GREAT advice here. You may not feel it yet, but you are well on your way to being a whole person again, one free of what your brother did and what has happened in your marriage.

I just want to add that thru this, you are beginning to understand the difference between simple and easy. The things you need to do, as they are unfolded, will be remarkably simple. But I hazard to bet that most of them will NOT be easy.

So, take it slow. Give yourself a break. Your husband already has!

One more thing...my daughter got me a CD the other day by Brad Paisely. There is a song in there entitled "Someone Knows You." I wanted to share the lyrics with you, because I thought it might give great insight into what your husband feels about you:


As JL said, you have a "hero" on your side. But more than a hero, I think that you just have a man that knows you...that wants to know you...that has always wanted to know you. Even when you didnt quite know yourself.

In His arms.

OK SC,

Mortarman has forced my hand. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> I now HAVE to tell you this joke. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

There is this cowboy he is sitting on a bull wrapping and rewrapping the lead around his gloved hand. He is trying to get in tighter and tighter. His friend is steadying him and the bull in the pen waiting for the gate to open. His friend is telling him, "OK, you all you have to do is stay on this bull 8 seconds and you win the championship. YOu have enough points that style doesn't count, nothing counts but staying on 8 secondes it is that simple... Remember it is simple, just stay on."

Two old cowboys are sitting on the fence near the pen. One turns to the other and says, "That boy over there is about to learn the difference between SIMPLE and EASY."

SC, you are as MM said about to learn the difference between simple and easy, but if you hang on you will prevail.

God Bless,

JL

I still love that joke.

In His arms.

hi sc,

i read your post last night but i just could not reply.

we have too much in common.

my brother didn't molest me but he co-ercied (i'm sure that is not spelled right) me to please him. i finished a note to him last feb, to confront him, speak my piece.

but i have not sent it.

i want to.

i'm sure i am getting very close to.

but not yet.

it is certainly appropriate to post about such things.

my list is a little different... only significant difference... pom pom instead of cheerleading!!
EXACTLY!!!

with honors too and with BS and MS in only 5 yrs, what normally takes 6 yrs. completely paid for by me again, my boss loved me because i worked so hard and my co-workers loved me because i worked so hard, and at the same time joked a lot and mentored others so they could be just as successful. exactly!!! never really intimate relationships, i could be there for anyone anytime, but accept anything from someone else? not really.
i know, cuz other kids have had it a lot worse than what you and i had to go thru, right?

when do we get to really put it behind us.

i'm hoping my letter will help do it for me, but i'm too chicken to send it.

as for my ability to truely trust another, even my H, i still struggle with that so much.

your "what to do with it" question... i struggle with that too.

so i've not really helped you here, but at least you know you are not alone.

one thing, it might be helpful to you too... my IC said, imagine this happened to your DD, would you still down play it, say it is no big deal?

of course the answer is NO!!! but somehow that is different.

FL,

Wow! We've been living parallel lives. Make no mistake. You were molested. It doesn't matter whether he touced you or forced you to touch him. You were violated.

Want to hear something else interesting? My husband's younger brother is alot like him -- similar personalities. He (my brother-in-law) is married to a woman a lot like me -- a perfectionist. Over the years, she and I have been struck by many similarities in our histories and outlook on life. Just one example out of many -- we both love animals and have done volunteer work for animal welfare groups. More recently, we have commisserated about the state of our marriages (some big differences, but again, some striking similarites). And just this last spring... you guessed it... I learned that she, too, was molested!!! Also by her brother!!! When she told me, it didn't even phase me. I quickly put it out of my mind. Didn't want to dwell on it. But now that I'm facing my demons, it's freaking me out.

I'm in kind of a rush here... so this is a little disjointed. But I also wanted to tell you that I understand your reluctance to send the letter. I'm terrified that our counselor is going to tell me that in order to heal, I have to confront my family. The idea TERRIFIES me. I think I'd rather wallow in my destructive behavior and patterns than do that.

For some reason, the last few days, the OM has been on my mind quite a bit -- moreso than before all this stuff about my past came up. I'm guessing it's because I'm looking for a mental escape. I seriously DO NOT want to deal with this crap.

AAaaarrrrgh!

--SC

SC,

I would bet a million dollars you are thinking of the OM because of all the probing and digging you are doing. I have similiar struggles. It gets ESPECIALLY hard when i am trying to change internal thoughts.

and my main struggle is: believing in my H's love for me. I want to sabatoge it so i can continue to believe he does not really love me because believing he does is so very uncomfortable.

and I want to sabatoge it when my desire for true intimacy gets too great because it is just does not feel safe.

i understand your OM was pretty much a stranger to you. Although what occured early in my marriage was not with strangers, what occured in 2001-2003 was. All but one was from the internet. There was one major OM, whom i agreed to meet 3 days after first chatting with and was at his appt 4 days later. It was NOT love, we did not even pretend it was. we were very straight forward, it was only physical. and that is exactly made it feel so much more safe. talk about a sick thought process.

i had to beleive there was a tiny bit of friendship there, but i didn't even need much of that. it was an escape. and he figured out very quickly what i needed in order to do whatever he wanted. to be told i was safe. "it's just the two of us now, you are safe" those words haunt me now. they were and are the farthest thing from the truth. but those words were so powerful.

Can I ask you an extremely personal question (on a completely public forumn!!! lol)

Do you have a hard time really accepting physical touch? Accepting it as a loving thing done for you? I just cannot seem to break thru this wall i keep on hitting. My whole life has been about faking it, making it look good, sex has not been an exception to that rule. It's never been about me accepting love. It's been about making the other person happy, including doing whatever it takes to make them believe they have satisfied me, without allowing any real satisfaction to occur.

and if by chance, i lost control and something did happen to me, i would end up crying right afterwards, very painfully. i won't stand here and say that was the case 100% of the time, but i think 95% would be a fair thing to say.

Inside, I have never been able to accept it as a loving act for me. and inside something happens when i try. i feel very strong panic and fear.

i'm struggling with that right now, A LOT!! and although i have tried to explain to my H, he really does not understand, sh*t, i don't even understand why. i think he wants to, i'm just not good at explaining it to him. he thinks it is because of him, but that is so not true.

it's harder now because my desire for true intimacy with him is growing, which is making the panic grow too. i feel like i am going backwards in giant leaps. i'm hoping it only feels like i am going backwards. but if i just stick with it, maybe i can stop this pattern.

ok, i'm rambling, i think there was a question in there somewhere... do you have the same problem?

Finaloly -you have to give yourself permission to let go. I have had to do this with my WH and still struggle with this very often. I do not feel worthy of pleasure since his A.

realtor,

simple concept, not so easy!! i literally, during the moment, start to feel a strong panic, and so now i am trying to say to myself, "it's ok, it's ok, relax, relax, relax" which so far has only made it harder. so then i have a choice to make, shut down and turn back into an object in my head, which allows me to continue, or stop all activity which i have never nor ever want to choose to do (although on very rare ocassions, i have had no choice and we have stopped). it leaves him in a bad way, if you know what i mean, and i refuse to do that.

i don't have this problem AT ALL when i just focus on him, in fact i enjoy that very much, giving to him means so much more then it ever did, cuz i don't think i ever felt like i was giving, i was letting myself be taken. it sounds like a subtle difference but it really is not. i'm not 100% sure when that shift really took place. it certainly started with me confessing to him, but somewhere along the line it became more concious to me.

i just don't know how to get past the accepting part.

realtor, why would YOU feel unworthy of pleasure, YOU did nothing wrong, you did not have an affair. i don't understand.

hey SC, in case you didn't see this... check it out...

I just talked to my brother

oh, one more thing i wanted to say to you SC.

you mentioned how you did not want to deal with any of this, neither did I, but...

somewhere along the line, when i was not looking, i went from not wanting to to wanting to. i wouldn't be surprised if the same happens for you.

Hey Finally Learning,

I had to think a little bit about your question -- about not being able to accept physical gestures of love from your husband and not being able to let yourself have an orgasm (I think that's what you're referring to, anyway).

My answer is... sometimes... not really... it depends. Keep in mind that my A and D-day are both pretty recent. The wounds are still open. I'm still sorting out a lot of stuff. And I'm still on an emotional roller coaster. My point is, it's hard for me to see the big picture at this point -- to really know what my general tendancies are -- because I'm still all over the place. And before that.. it was a slow decline into numbness. So I'm not too sure about anything. But I'll give it my best shot.

I think the answer is, it's not as severe a problem for me as it seems to be for you. Do I sometimes feel guilty if I have an orgasm and he doesn't? Yes, ususally I do. Have I ever faked it? Yes. Do I feel selfish when he gives me a nice back rub and I give him nothing in return? Often, I do. But ususally, they are "twinges of guilt" not "overwhelming emotions".

Here's something Just Learning wrote to me near the beginning of this thread, back when I was all upset because my husband really wanted to resume sexual relations with me and I just wasn't ready. I was worried that if I went ahead and had sex with him before I was ready, I would either feel violated, or like I was just using him for my own pleasure. Anyway, I think you may find JL's comments applicable to your situation.

He wrote:

At first, I thought JL was nuts! I had just cheated on my husband and now it was okay to use him for my own sexual gratification? Yikes! But then I realized that my husband had been hinting at the same concept. So, one evening, after my H gave me one of his awsome back rubs, I let it go further. Without getting to graphic, I'll just say that he took care of me, I started crying uncontrollably, and he held me in his arms, saying over and over again "it's okay" until I calmed down. I felt terrible. But the next day, he was all smiles!!! He was thrilled that I had allowed him to give me pleasure!!! I was astounded, and much to my surprise, was ready to return the favor the following night! (and we each have reciprocated a number of times since. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />)

Anyway, I think my point is this: You know how good it makes you feel to make him feel good, right? Why deny him the same thrill? Instead of focusing on yourself at that moment, and trying to force yourself to calm down and feel a certain way, why not focus on HIM. Think of it as GIVING somthing to HIM -- the gift knowing that he has just driven you crazy!

It may work. It may not. It may take some practice. But the practice could be fun. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Good luck,
--SC

yes, that is exactly what i was referring too.

i had read JL's post to you at the time he first posted it.

ugh...

i was feeling better and now your post has resulted in my roller coaster going back down.

how am i to really know if my H is interested in making me feel that good??

i figure this is a very terrible and disrespectful judgement on my part to say but, i'm not so convinced that is the case. i have not really found much evidence that he has that same desire. i'm not saying he pays no attention to me ever. i'm just saying, i'm not convinced it is enjoyable for him or a priority of his.

combine that with the fact that i am a more difficult subject cuz i have such a hard time accepting and you have yourself a messed up situation.

everyone will say, of course he has that desire!!! but no one but he will be able to convince me.

Wait just a minute FL!
You said you've tried to explain this to your H and he doesn't get it, thinks it's him, right? So he must care about this issue at least a little bit to be willing to discuss it and try to understand it. Also, you know what Dr Phil says: "We teach people how to treat us." Sounds to me like you've been training your husband for years NOT to make your needs/satisfaction a priority. The onos shouldn't be on him to now turn the tables, and try to convince you that he is interested in making you feel good. Plus, if he knows you fake it alot, maybe he's sick of being duped. Maybe he thinks, "why work so hard to accomplish something when I can never tell whether I've really done it anyway?" Maybe he doesn't show much pleasure in making you feel good because he doesn't trust that he even can? See what I mean. How would it make you feel to know that all of your best efforts rarely made your husband "finish". And/or that many of the times you THOUGHT you had satisfied him, he was just faking it? I don't know about you, but if it were me, I might just give up after awhile. YOU are the one who needs to turn this around, not him

Holy Cow! Listen to me! I'm beginning to sound like the rest of the hard a---- around here. lol

hi SC, wow, nice 2x4!!

but i hear ya.

i have certainly thought about Dr. Phil's stmt so i will not argue that i have probably trained him for years to not make my needs a priority.

and that stuff about possibly feeling duped... i can't argue that either.

so i agree that (some of) the onos should be on me, but exactly what do i do to turn it around?

i am owning the fact that i have the hangup here. i realize that. but i still don't know exactly how to turn it around. and i don't see how i can truely do it by myself.

i realize it will take a while

i realize it will require me to be real ALL THE TIME!!

and of course communication is very key. but hard!!

i do think some of the onos is on him too. since things are different now, he knows i am trying to deal with this (even if he does not understand it), so shouldn't i be able to ask him to help?

he has said that he cannot figure it out for me. which is what you are trying to say to me too.

ugh... i just don't know. sometimes i actually feel like it is slowly getting worked out. i just have to focus on that. lots and lots of patience!!!

ok, no more talking about me!!! this is your thread, you are the object under the microscope here, not me!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />