WOW! Guys...a lot of writing today! Here are some things I would like to point out if I may....


Holiday,
THIS IS AN EXCELLENT POINT! I had never thought of it that way and am happy to hear it thought out so logically!



Again, Holiday, we are on the same page. In fact, after reading Leviticus I told my H the same thing. We(people in general) sit there and almost ridiculed some other starters of religions for what they say God told them, but just sit back and say that Moses was the pure one who would not have said anything for political power, or to keep his followers under control. It strikes me as interesting that he was trying to set apart the Jews from everyone else in the world at that time. When you do not want people to rebel from you, you set up ridgid rules and harsh punishments for those rules.



On this one I have to agree with 2. God did create all of us knowing that we would be sinners and yet still loves us. We were not born innocent, and free of sin. I do not think any human could ever be, with the exception of one. It is just not in our nature.


Here 2, I have to totally disagree. Forgive me if I get too fired up...but sometimes these topics do that to me. First and foremost you must understand that homosexuality is NOT a choice. It is something you are born with. It is not something you MIGHT be b/c somebody else in your family history has it(like alcoholism), and it is not something that you can change if you trust in God. It is not a disease or some mental illness or any of the excuses that people who do not "like" homosexuals come up with. It is not AT ALL like being an adulterer or a pedifile(sp?). Those ARE choices, easy enough to walk away from. When you first started becoming attracted to boys, did you think it was a choice? No, you just accepted it. Now wanting to be with many guys....that is a choice, not just the way you are. It is the same for homosexuals. Ask most homosexuals, they would not choose to be the way they are...who would want people to throw hate at them at every turn??? There are the exceptions where someone has turned to homosexuality because of environmental issues, probably just as some homosexuals have turned straight for environmental reasons.

Also, homosexuality is found in many animals, not just humans. In fact in some animal populations it is preferred. It is just thought of as wrong by humans.

This is where having a scientist for a H comes in handy. I have seen many studies on this issue. It is one of those issues that you just cannot argue with a Christian. There is no way that your mind will ever be open enough to receive it. You told Holiday....



I do not believe that it is she or I with the mind that is not open. I do not mean that as an insult, although I realize it comes across that way. It is just that this is what I was stating in my earlier post...you cannot argue with someone who looks at the bible without question. I could list off many studies that prove that it is not a choice, but b/c of your unwavering faith in that book, you will not see them as anything but Satan's work. I am sure there are many Christians out there who admire that kind of faith. For me, I would rather realize that there could be errors in the bible, seek out what they are, and then believe anyway. Sort of like I would rather come to the truth about the love my H felt for the OW, look it for what it really was, and love him despite the fact that he loved another woman while he was with me.

Faith without knowledge is nothing more than brainwashing in my opinion. You have to know what the truth is and still have faith. Our spouses were willfully blind going into the A. I do not want to be willfully blind in my belief in God and Christ.

Gee, I didn't know that my one answer to 2's question about whether my H was a believer or not would mount such a discussion.

Hope your cookies came out just right Holiday.

And 2, I hope that your work keeps you busy.

Rocked, you are already busy, but I am so happy to hear that your marriage is on a much smoother trail nowadays.

What a blessing you all are, and I also agree that I am glad that we can share our beliefs, though different, and can still chat.

Talk to you tomorrow.

True <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I just want to point out that for many years AS A CHRISTIAN, I felt the same way as both of you. I BELIEVE the Lord opened my eyes to see the truth about homosexuality, just like he opened my H eyes to see the truth about his A and the OW. My mind was open enough to hear what the Lord was telling me. Not brainwashed, just the opposite. Free in the TRUTH!

I know you say there is "proof" that homosexuality is something you are born with. I personally have never seen any evidence to convince me that your statement is correct. If you have good. Just like your H saw much evidence to disprove Jesus lived, I haven't.

And now I am done!
2

OK, I lied. I'm back.

True, there is also lots of "evidence" to suggest that monogomy is not natural. No other animals are monogomous (except turtles I think?) So who cares what animals do? We are set apart. Animals screw anything they want. That is why they are animals.

Since the evidence is that monogomy isn't "natural" why do you expect it from your scientist H? Who by the way, I meant to ask you if you guys saw the Oprah with the swingers on? It totally made me think of you guys and had me rolling laughing. I think people (like maybe your H True) thinks that they'll be having sex with all these great looking, hot, Jenna Jameson (porn star) like women. Did you see the swingers on Oprah?! UGLY! I kept thinking "that is why they swing! They don't want to have to look at their ugly partner!" I kept picturing you agreeing to it and going to a swinging party with your H and both of you running out of there 20 minutes later going "Gross! I won't touch any of those people let alone have sex with them!" I think there is the idea (because I had it too actually before the Oprah and meeting a former swinger at a church retreat) that everyone must be great looking which is why they have no problem getting butt naked in front of complete strangers! But I was wrong. They were fat, old and ugly! Have fun!

Anyway, I just had to add that about monogomy because I think if you think homosexuality is OK, then promiscuity must be too because we were absolutely born with the urge, desire, nature to screw many people. We surpress it because it is what God wants. When I didn't care about God, I did give into my nature. Now I know better!

Good night!
2

Truly being "gay" is not about lust, but of course just as there are straight lustful people, there probably are gay lustful people. You should not lump a homosexual person with a child molester. No way is that even an issue!

A homosexual couple share the same issues as hetrosexual couples. The only difference is they cannot produce "more people for the church" with each other.

What if Jesus were gay? He was a man who had many male companions. Just a thought.

I understand we are born sinners. God made man and made woman. Why would he then knowingly make a person who was definitely neither?



Do you know why animals "screw" everything they want? First, because they can, but realistically because it continues the species. That is why monogamy is "unnatural" to continue a species. (Killer whales and some bird species are monogamous too).

I will go with True's thought that Moses had put out a set of rules to keep the peace (instead of everyone getting a piece). It stopped kaos.

Yes, swingers, depending on your area, your income and your age, come in all shapes and sizes. Just thinking of my parents and their "friends" would make anyone cringe. But, to them, it's not about the "look", it's about sexual acceptance. A group of people who all have the same sexual thought process. It is not my cup of tea and I hopefully, do not judge.

I also hold true to my point that our WS's had lust, not love for the OP. If they truly were "in love" with them, I don't think they would be working through their marriages as they have been nor be sitting on the family room couch right now.

2, where did you hear homosexuality was about promiscuity? Gay couples are like you and I and our spouses. They don't track down people to have sex with them with uncontrollable urges. That then would be a sexual deviant, sexual predator or sex addict not a homosexual. Do you know the differences between homosexual, transexual and transvestite? Very interesting. Makes me sad to think our internal chemistries have confused our bodies so much.

I too, feel bad that a homosexual person must carry a lifestyle where they are hated and judged, especially by "Christians". Is not being a good Christian, one that does not make judgement? This is where my good brother and I disagree too. I tell him we'll see on our special day. We will see the truth.

I need your prayers for a very dear friend of mine (my buddy who lived across the street from me while growing up...buddies since the 4th grade). He had skin cancer 10 years ago and they were able to remove it. Now it is back and in his brain, liver etc. I love him deeply as anyone could love their best buddy. His name is Terry. He is an atheist and for years he and I have bantered over Christianity (he loves all my good points and always listened).


holiday

Ps cookies turned out great! now if i could only stop eating them.

Ok, I'm back again! I'm bored tonight. H at a ball game with a friend...his old job! Anyway, I went on family.org because I like to see what Christian articles they have. For a long time, I avoided Focus on the Family and Dr. Dobson because of their political views, but after the A, I felt it was important to have positive Christian literature in the house even if I did disagree with his political views.

So I go on and as I click around I learn that Focus on the Family quit banking with Wells Fargo because of the pro-gay support they have for Gay organizations. It made me say "That is why I avoided you for so long Dr. Dobson!" I find that ridiculous. I understand that it goes against his view and teaching, but what about the teaching of Christ love and tolerance? It totally frustrated me! Just like all the people who boycotted the American Girl Dolls because the company gave some small money to an organization that is tolerate of gay lifestyles. I don't see anything wrong with living mutally in harmony. Now if Wells Fargo gave money to a gay organization that tried to out-law opposite sex marriage, then maybe I'd agree with Focus on the Family. But because Wells Fargo gave to an organization that supports tolerance, I think it silly. OK, good night.

It seems we all must have healed enough from our A experiences to refocus our "opinions" on controversial topics. My marriage is progressively doing better and I feel the time has come for me to end my time here on MB. Thank you all for your friendship. I appreciate the support, encouragement, humor, butt-kicking, and everything else you've been to me over the last year. You were there when I needed you the most. I only hope I have been some help to you as well. May you experience the very best God has for you in your marriage and life.

Love ya,
Rocked

[color:"green"]First of all....Good morning all. I hope you had a restful night's sleep. I am up and am still in pain. I wish I could just sit on the couch all day long, but there is just too much to do.

Now...for last night's discussion.

2, Ouch. Some of those words were awfully biting. Thanks for calling me fat and ugly, BTW. Yes, I think that is why my H wants to swing, b/c he cannot stand to look at me every time we have sex. Ok..I am slightly joking there, but that is the feeling that his desire does say to me, most of the time. Holiday is right when she said it has to do more with the sexuality issue, and believe it or not, a lot of the swingers are the most accepting people when it comes to shapes and sizes and beauty. Also, most clubs have an interview process, and I suppose if you do not look the way they want you to, they don't let you in. Plus, you do not have to sleep with anybody else, you get to choose who you have sex with...if you don't think anybody fits what you want, then you don't have to do it. It is not like they set you up with somebody else and say "now, go forth and have sex". I am not trying to justify swinging, believe me, but I just think you have the wrong impression of what goes on.

As for the "proof" issue, well, my H does not disagree that Jesus lived. He believes He was a great teacher, and I think he believes that He was the Son of god. There are just issues with parts of the story, the Old Testament, and a lot of the writings after Jesus had left the earth.

As for homosexuality and monogamy being in the same category, well, I do not know how to answer that one. I do not think they are the same, but know if I say that, I could be counted as a hypocrite. I cannot explain my position except to say that I agree with what Holiday said. The sexual orientation of a person is not the sin, it is how they choose to live with that. If a gay man/woman were to sleep around before marriage or never get married and sleep around, or cheat on their spouse, then I would call them sinful as well. I do not believe that it is b/c we have faith in God that we supress the inborn desire to screw other people. There are many athiests/agnostics out there who are monogomous for life, b/c it is the kind of life they want and want to give their spouse. And, correct me if I am wrong, but there are many men in the bible who had multiple wives. God allowed this in the Old Testament, when there probably was more of a need to survive. I do not know exactly when that changed, but I bet it had more to do with environmental factors, or a shift in the political winds than the will of God(something for me to look up while I am resting from my "broken" back). There are many hypocracies in the world and I guess I am using one of them now. I was going to bring up another one that has irritated me recently, but I think one debate is good enough for now <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />.

And yes, there are many more creatures out there that are monogamous their whole life, but Holiday is right...there is a need to continue the species, and there is no environmental code telling them to stop. In humans, there is not that need anymore. We are at the top of the food chain, we do not need to worry. I hate to tell you this, but humans are animals too. We are mammals. Many people do not like to think of this, but it is the truth. Maybe we have been set apart as the superior animal, but we are still animals, with basic animal needs and wants. We just know how to control each other better than animals in the wild.

I also was very sad to hear of the boycott on American Girl Dolls. I told my H that I wanted to go to the rally in front of the Chicago store the day after Thanksgiving to show my support for the company. It is ridiculous. Those dolls are a great thing for young girls today, considering that you have those Bratz dolls and My Scene Barbies that teach the girls to dress like sluts and wear make-up that any hooker would be proud of. It just irritates me that these groups of people do these thing...they even boycotted Girl Scout cookies in Texas! It is just like these groups yelling at Wal-mart for taking "Christmas" out of their commercials this year. Wal-mart doesn't just cater to Christians, and were not just advertising Christmas and I am sick of these radical groups thinking that everything in America should. Does that help people come to Christ at all? To see radicals acting so idiotically? I don't think so; if anything, it pushes them away.

I also wanted to point out that the bible does not refer to women being homosexuals not b/c they just used the term he back then, or like in medical journals, but b/c women were not considered worthy of mention in the society at the time. They were possessions to be had. They did not need to be mentioned, b/c they would be forced to do whatever the men wanted them to. That is how I see that there are some thing in the bible that could be "wrong". I am sure God would not want women to be treated as second hand citizens(and I am not talking just about a woman submitting to her H). If you look at Jesus, however, he offers females a much higher role in the community, and if you believe some historians, even gave much more importance to Mary Magdelene than is reported in the bible. I do not know if I believe that, but it could be the case. He did have a human side to him, which many people want to forget also. That is why I take issue with the people after Jesus. The very early church had women higher up than they had ever been in society, but slowly it got back to the point where women were not even allowed to study the bible. Look how the Catholics supressed woman, not allowing them to lead, but play a more "womanly" role. I am glad it has changed somewhat. I like to see women pastor's and am glad that there have been women in the church in the past(and now) who do not necessarily fight their position, but still do more good where they are than any pastor can. Look at Mother Teresa...she is an inspiration for anyone.

OK. I really am off my soapbox. I am sorry that I started such a controversy. I really do not want any hard feelings and I guess the old saying don't talk politics or religion in polite company is right. Feelings get much hotter faster than in any other topic.

Off to get ready for school parties today. Hope you all have a good one.

Holiday, I will pray hard and fast for your friend.

TTYL!

True <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

edited to add....Sorry, Rocked I was posting this when you wrote. I can tell that our discussions have ticked you off. I am sorry for that. I suppose like I said above, things get a little hot in the kitchen sometimes, and if you don't like what you are hearing, then you should get out. I am sorry again, though, that you feel you need to leave. If I am totally off base...then forgive me for that as well.

I hope that you have the best life possible with your W, and am glad to hear that you are hopeful enough to move on.[/color]

Actually I agree with Rocked. Part of the reason I haven't wanted to share my "new outlook on life" is that it will require me to leave MB. I haven't wanted to do that, but I think with the new year, the time has come.

So here goes my "outlook". At my last MC session we discussed some things about how my H didn't want to talk about the A or justify my feelings. She came back to me and said "2, you have not truly forgiven your H." Well, I was furious! I have done EVERYTHING I know how to to get over the BIGGEST betrayal of my life and you want to tell me I haven't fogiven! I'm still with him. So when I told her I disagreed, that I had done all I knew how, she said "Godly forgiveness is as if it never happened." Well, I cried and cried and we talked about seperation and then I hugged her good-bye and told her thanks for all her help...I was just sorry it didn't work.

So I left pretty angry, but I love my MC and have always agreed with her. I kept arguing back and forth about yes, I've forgiven and I can't just "pretend" it didn't. But as I started praying for God to reveal to me if my MC was right, I realized that she was. I hadn't forgiven the Godly way.

I started to think about Jesus and how he forgives us. I pictured him seated across from me on a daily basis telling me he'd forgiven me and reminding me every few hours how sad he was because of the sins I'd committed against him. That isn't what he does. He forgives as if it never happened and loves us like before. I had to really ponder that. Love him like before? Could I do that? Is that fair?

As I started to feel God work on my heart and I decided to pretend that it never happened, that it was a very vivid bad dream, I felt myself become lighter. I could look at my H again, I could feel his love again, I could allow myself to feel safe with him again. It really did change me. Then I saw the movie about the Truth and Reconcilation hearings in South Africa. What they did when aparthied ended was allow the victims and the victims families to face those who persecuted them and confront them about the horrors they suffered at their hands. The persecutors where required to listen, admit what they had done, ask for forgiveness if they wanted to and then it was over. No one was going to jail, no one was going to spend time in therapy, it was over. The truth had been told, acknowledged and then forgiven allowing reconcilation to happen. The S. African leaders chose only to prosecute the heads of the government who made the orders. Those who followed orders were left alone. It was very emotional to see how such HUGE wrongs could be righted with simple words, nothing else.

I started to realize that I've spent a year making sure my H heard me, making sure he knew how much this had hurt me. I feel confident that I have made my point. I feel confident that he is sorry and wants to reconcile. So what good is it going to do me to be mad, sad and untrusting? NONE. It is time to completely let it go as if it never happened.

So that means lots of things. That means no Brad Pitt comments, no mention of how badly the movies showed the BS reaction to infidelity. No Marriage Builders, no MC. It is over and that means it never happened.

But you guys aren't MB. You are my friends! I can't and won't walk away from you because you are more than a message board where I can vent and share my political and religious views. I will no longer discuss my H infidelity accept to acknowledge that it happened. If and when God calls me to be there for someone else going through this, I will have to do what I am called to do. But for now, I no longer wish to discuss it, or even look at myself as a BS. I am done.

Of course I waver. I thought a lot about OW as I was jogging yesterday morning. I have to catch myself and I am worried that I may slip. But this picture of Godly forgivenss has given me a new perspective. I am ready to start the new year off not as a BS, but as a wife to a loving and wonderful H.

Because I will not walk away from you guys, I would like permission to check in with you via e-mail. I have your e-mail addresses except Rocked, I don't know which one you want me to use if any. I guess that means I'm free of my dinner obligation to you. And by the way, thanks for leaving me in the cold! I was counting on you addressing Holidays questions like you said you would. I was very interested in your response.

Anyway, that is that! I don't want to leave here, but I do believe if I want to act as though it never happened, I can't be here. So from now on, e-mail me!

True, don't be ridiculous! I did not call you fat and ugly the people on Oprah were. Did you see it? I have a basic understanding of how it works. I thought about you again last night watching Barbara Walters special. Muslims believe you get to have lots of great sex with lots of people in the after life...Christians don't. Tell your H if he changes his faith, maybe he can be a swinger in heaven! Kidding!

Well, I'm off. I'll check in to see your post for the next few days, but don't expect me to post. I'll e-mail you if you say ok.

Love ya!
2

2,

Well, I am totally rewriting what I just wrote. I was going to tell you how a lot of marriage counselors would tell you the exact opposite and how we can not forgive as God does, b/c we are not him....but, I know that if you want to pretend, if it makes things easier for you, then you should. As for me(and my H), I do not think that is practical or wise. I want us both to remember so we will think twice about those issues in the furture. I do not want to dwell on it, or jab at him every chance I get(and I still do not see how talking about Brad Pitt means you are jabbing your H). Before the A, I would have pointed out what an idiot Brad was, so even if I pretending the A never occured, I would still do that.

I think I metioned earlier that I was giving myself until the end of year to mourn and then I was going to stop dwelling. I suppose it is similar to pretending, but mine is more of a conscience choice to just not bring it up and stop myself from thinking negatively all the time. Like I said, I will forever be a FBS, and my H will forever be a FWS. We cannot change who we are, for it is how we learn and grow out of adversity that define us. I am glad that my H will always remember what he did and then look at me and be amazed that I am still his wife. If he just pretended it never happened, he could not do that.

I am sorry to be losing people that I really felt a bond with. I am even sorrier that a friendship can be a reminder of something so awful and needs to be avoided. Holiday, if you want to just do email, then I guess I will say good-bye too.

I hope you all have a wonderful life full of happiness and love. I hope nothing ever again rocks you as this has, and I hope that we all find peace in the days to come.

True <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />