Cherubino,
How long have you been married? Children, ages?
Has he ever been unfaithful before? Other addictions now or in the past (drugs, alcohol, porn, spending, gambling)?

How long did the A go on? Have you been tested for STDs? Did he break off all contact with OW? Is he willing to work on recovery of the marriage, or is he still cheating? Is he rationalizing and justifying his actions and blaming you, or is he taking full responsibility and trying to make things right? I'm confused because you say he says he wants the two of you to start over at the very beginning, but then also that he hasn't decided whether he wants to reconcile?

What are your religious beliefs? Makes a huge difference in the advice I would give, is why I ask.

Also, as far as feeling overwhelmed by guilt for creating a situation where infidelity could happen... the great Dr. Phil just told a BW this week on his show that the adultery is NOT her FAULT. There are other things you can work on in Plan A, your lovebusters, filling his emotional needs, etc. that are very powerful to restoring the marriage. But his choice to cheat was/is NOT YOUR FAULT. He is making a terribly immature and selfish and sinful choice that HE alone must correct and seek forgiveness for. No marriage or spouse is perfect, but cheating is ALWAYS wrong, and NEVER justified.

A little more background would be helpful. I know this is the singularly most painful thing you have ever been through, welcome to MB.

MSA

Dear Mrs. S:

Thank you SO MUCH for responding. It is comforting to know that I am not alone, and I SO appreciate your wise words.

To fill you in, here are answers to your questions.

Married: almost 15 years
Children: none
Prior infidelity: He has never been unfailthful before.
Addictions: none
Length of A: 6-8 weeks
STDs: he's been tested, I have not
Contact: he still has contact with OW at work; however, when he decided to leave me, she immediately broke it off with him and wrote him a three-page, single spaced "Dear John" letter, which devastated him. I think that the A was either no longer exciting for her, or the possibility of a committment with him was too scary for her.

As far has his views of recovery: he doesn't give me a definitive yes or a definitive no. He says, "I don't know." He says he's confused. He says all the things that I've read here: "I don't love you like I used to." "I don't love you the way you want me to." He says our relationship is "dead" and "full of decay." He says he has felt this way for two years (unbeknownst to me). He is not taking full responsibility for his actions, in part because I was intitially very ready to assume responsibility for my part in creating this situation. No one here is blameless.

I'm confused, too. He says that the only chance we have of reconciling is if we start over at the very beginning. And he also says he wants to see other people. Confusion all around.

This is not the behavior of the man I've known for almost 20 years and loved for almost 15 years. He is always a play by the rules, do the right thing, do the right thing the right way, help other people out kind of man. I have never seen this side of him before. It's an anomoly. It's crazy!

I have been reading everything I can get my hands on regarding infidelity. I've been in therapy. I'm on ADs. He has started therapy, and has started ADs. However, I simply cannot see him because I break down when I encounter him in person. I fall to pieces--so much pain--the fact that he doesn't know what he wants to do--the fact that he wants to see other people. The pain of his betrayal when I am face to face with him is unbearable, and so I have asked that we have no in-person contact.

I do think that there were a few catalysts that perhaps triggered such crazy behavior in him (his father is dying a slow and horrible death, he had to help disburse of his dad's belongings in the spring, he is at an impasse in his career--no chance of advancement at work unless someone quits, is fired, or dies, I am finishing a terminal degree in my field and his career seems to be at a stand-still, should he now go back to school, or should he change careers, all of his friends have "real jobs" and kids and own houses and have paid off their student loans, and he can barely afford an apartment).

As far as his family history goes, his father left his mother when WH was six years old, and he has told me time after time that he is afraid of becoming like his father. For some reason, I think this is a really important element, but I'm not sure why.

As far as my religious beliefs go, I don't attend a specific church, but I am a Christian. I have been praying and crying and writing letters to God and crying and praying some more and reading the Bible and praying and crying and reading inspirational things and crying some more.

What I feel that God is trying to tell me, or what God is asking me to learn, is to "Be patient. He'll come back. Be patient." I am by nature not patient at all, so this is hard.

I've almost memorized the Harley's book about surviving affairs. I'm totally committed to reestablishing and recommitting to the marriage, but he is not. So--three months from D-day--do I throw in the towel? Do I see him and talk to him even though it is unbearable? Do I continue to have hope, or should I just give up? I'm at a loss to know what to do next. Any advice you may have will be greatly appreciated.

Thank you so much!

Cherubino [color:"blue"] [/color]

God also told me to Wait. Wait. Wait. and Wait. It was very very hard. But I'm glad I listened and was obedient to what He asked of me.

Your perspective of essentially Plan B may be useful to helping your WH decide what he wants. The question is here, what do YOU want? Do you believe God wants to continue to work thru your marriage to make you a better person, to teach you forgiveness, empathy, compassion and understanding? Are you up for it if you do believe this? It is hard when your H continues to be "on the fence" about what he wants for himself. Perhaps the time apart is good. Does he try to initiate any contact or conversation with you?

MSA

Dear MSA:

I am completely committed to our marriage. When I initiated the No Contact policy, it was because he said that he wanted to start at the very beginning and "see me." Then I asked if he was going to "see other people," and he said, "If I want to have dinner with someone, I should be able to." At that point, I said that I could not see him and I could have no contact with him. If we're individuals, then we need to act like individuals. And from my perspective his response of "seeing me and seeing other people" is simply a continuation of the A, but in another form. So I guess you could say, the A is continuing. In the letter I gave to him, I wrote that because he is pursuing other relationships, we can have no contact. And that when he is ready to stop seeing other people and re-establish our M, then I will be able to see him.

This has been going on for three weeks--I know, in the great scheme of things, that length of time is nothing--but it's killing me. He has had to come to the apartment a couple of times to get things, and he has called before hand, and I have simply remained in the bedroom with the door closed so I literally wouldn't have to see him. When there is necessary communication--either related to our finances or concluding my degree, I have either gone through friends, or I have contacted him myself. And of course, after I speak to him on the phone, or even as I am speaking with him, I fall apart. I fall apart because he's on the fence. I fall apart because it isn't obvious to him that we should continue to work through this and address the issues that created this. I fall apart because he would rather be with other women than me. And that really sucks.


I wish I could just not care and completely detach myself emotionally from him, but I can't. I think that God really is teaching me patience. I know that he does want to teach me compassion, empathy, and forgiveness--but my sense of self was so shattered when I decovered my H's A, that I think God really wants me to be patient with myself. To treat myself with compassion, empathy, and especially forgiveness, because I totally claim responsibility for my part in creating the situation that allowed this to happen. But then I doubt myself and think, "Do I really want this to continue just because I'm needy?" But I don't think so--I am committed to our marriage because when we are both at our best, our connection is absolutely amazing. And I told him that I would wait.

So the message I continue to receive from God is "Be patient."

You have no idea how much this message board helps. It is unbelievable how many people are going or have gone through what I'm experiencing, and it so helpful to know that I am not alone. It is also helpful to know that there are predictable stages that the WH moves through. And predictible stages that I am moving through.

Thank you so much for your advice and encouragement. You will probably never know how much I appreciate it.

Cherubino

just wanted you to know...i am praying for you.

this is HARD! the hardest thing i have ever dealt with in my life and i have had alot of obsticles thrown at me since age 5. Continue to PRAY!!!!

i am somewhat discouraged today but i have these days alot. come here and post/read...just get it all out...no one ever seems to mind...i ramble on and on, but i feel much better afterwards.

some words of encouragement that MSA gave me that go over and over in my mind daily....God loves your H, you, and your M even more than you do...Keep leaning on God, i have, and i am much stonger a person because i let God be in control. I sometimes forget that he is bigger than all of this, but it is not in God's will for our H's to be having A's.

Just wanted you to know i am praying for you and your H. Hang in there...jaysmom

Dear Jaysmon and MSA--

I not doing well at all right now. I don't know how I will hang on or get from minute to minute. As our marriage is a common law marriage, I don't know if the same rules apply--I am trusting that they do.

I just had a devastating conversation with my WH over the telephone. Isn't it ironic that I ask for no contact, and then I contact him?

Me: Is there any chance of us reconciling?

Him: Not right now, no.

Me: Why not?

Him: Because I'm seeing someone else.

He didn't even tell me two years ago when he first became unhappy. He didn't tell me what he needed or what he wanted, and I just assumed that everything was OK. I haven't seen him in person in over three weeks as it is too devastating, and I'm feeling pretty devastated right now.

Me : Do you think this (his new relationship) is something that will be permanent?

Him: I don't know, but I'd like to give it a chance to see what will happen. I don't want to go too fast like I have in the past. The longer I stay away (from you), the more I am convinced it's the right thing to do.

We had been together almost 15 years. We have so many bonds on so many levels, and why does the fact that I'm dying right now not diminish my love for him?

I ought to be so angry at him. I ought to be furious, and yet I still love him, I still believe in us, and I believe in the past 15 years. I don't understand any of this. Can someone please help me understand?

I really need some help.

Cherubino

i know how you feel TRUST ME! and not that it makes you feel any better but i do.

i wish i could tell you what to do. that is what i would sit and think...can't someone give me the answer, someone tell me what to do, what he is thinking, make the hurt stop. when i felt so devestated and thought i could not make it another second i honestly just fell on my face and prayed. sometimes i couldn't even speak...i just cried and cried...all in prayer. Even at work. I would go to the restroom and just pray. I have never in my life felt as much peace as those times when i just couldn't breathe and i poured it out to God.

Many times at home with my son...i would get angry with him over my H's lies and betrayal. Especially over our son. My H has been the most loving and adoring man in the world. We had such a good M and our family was so close that i too understand what you mean. As time goes by i start to think...was everything we had over 11 years just lies? But you know in your heart...that wasn't the lie...this is the lie. Everything he thinks he feels is false.

Love is based on truth. A's are only lies. Lie after lie after lie. Love can never be based on lies. What seems to be love is only the obsession, infatuation of the A. And he doesn't even know what he wants.

Your right we should be angry...we should not feel love at all for them. They don't deserve our love. But we can't turn our feelings off. Again...something i would ask God daily..."how does he just stop loving, feeling for me overnight...i can't" my best friend said something to me that really hit me...she said "when someone dies you don't stop loving them because they aren't here anymore" same as this...the love is there, down deep...and eventually it surfaces and they come to those little bits of reality...

but as others and MSA have told me...the fog lifts but then they fall back into it.

i really wish i could tell you something more helpful, hopeful...i wish i could give you something...i know because i did/do. Just know one thing...

....And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. Romans 8:28

know that you are in my prayers. spend time on here read/post anytime...if i think of anything helpful...i'll be sure to post...jaysmom

Cherubino, I would think things would work the same with commonlaw marriage, although the commitment level on his part maybe wasn't the same as if he had said marriage vows? I don't know.
What jumps out in my mind as I read your post, since you are already effectively in Plan B, is to read "Love Must Be Tough" and use Dr. Dobson's letter (his version of a Plan B letter, many on here as well) to your WH. It's in the book, Dear John, I will treasure the years we had together, yada yada yada, but I am setting you free, yada yada. Sue" that lettter... then follow through on waiting this out. Also, I recommend Donald Harvey's "When the One You Love Wants to Leave" for your sitch, since he recommends and endorses the NC that you have already put in place. Then Surviving an Affair by Dr. Willard Harley. I also liked Gary Chapman's "Hope for the Separated" - but I think in your situation start with Dobson and the Donald Harvey if you haven't already memorized them. It IS reassuring to know that these are textbook situations that move in stages. Dobson does a great job of laying out the struggle of conscience that the WS goes through, first with the spouse, then children (if any - I know you don't), then friends & acquaintances, then lastly God. VERY profound, and accurate to a "T" in our situation and most/all. I found it a FASCINATING and very easy to read, engrossing book in my situation - SO INFORMATIVE!!!

Your WH doesn't know what he wants right now, is he Christian? How did he meet OW? So, apparently her Dear John letter was not very sincere? Yours will need to be...

MSA

Wow--it is so wonderful to know that I'm not alone--that other people have cried at work in the bathroom and poured their heart out to God. I wonder, too, if it would have made any difference if he had said marriage vows. For some reason, I doubt it, after reading all the stats about infidelity and marriage and seeing all the posts on this board. As far as my WH being a Christian, I'm not so sure. He's a smart guy--actually brilliant in an intellectual way--and I think he may feel he's too"smart" for Christianity, if you know what I mean. I think he may perceive himself as pretty darn self-sufficent.

At this point there are two other women: the first, who ended their relationship in August, he met at his job. And as for the second, I have no idea where or how they met. All he said was that he was "seeing someone else," and that he wants to give their relationship "a chance to develop." So, since August, he has had two other women. If you count me, that's a total of three: one woman per month. I don't get it.

This is so not the man I've loved for the past 15 years. Somebody suggested that perhaps I've just been blind to who he really was during our entire relationship. They suggested that the A might be the real thing, and that our relationship might be a fraud. But I don't think so. I haven't given up,

I really don't know what I am supposed to learn from this. I can't see the light at the end of the tunnel, and I really want to. I still have hope. I still believe. And MSA, I'm getting the Dobson book today. I can't wait to read it.

Question:

DO PLAN B LETTERS EVER WORK?

Do they EVER lead to reconciliation?

Do they EVER help the WS return to the BS?

Cherubino

I hope you get the Dobson, just can't recommend him highly enough, along with the Harleys.
As for do Plan B letters ever work? Oh, yes, when followed thru on they certainly do. They often work, I would go so far to say. It is as good a shot as any. That was what I wanted when my WH left me - the best odds at recovery. These books I listed I felt provided that pathway. Not foolproof, but if well-executed, the best possible odds.

As far as your WH being too intellectual for Christ, if he ever does come back around I would have some great reads for him if he were interested in the future (after all this is resolved of course). My H, and I know I sound biased in this, is the most intelligent person I've ever met, National Merit Scholar, the highest scores on the Army's language test they had ever seen, valedictorian etc and I could go on & on... he has questioned and pressed Christianity from every side and come out a believer. Just for future reference, all hope isn't lost - Christianity isn't for the mentally gullible, or the unquestioning mind - it can stand up to all of it. Just my experience, I know where you are coming from on that, and him too.

Let me know how you like the Dobson.

Oh, and by the way, I remain unconvinced that your WH has met someone new, as opposed to the original A reigniting, he just wouldn't want you to know... do you have proof?

MSA

MSA--

No, I have no proof that this is a different person. Just what he said yesterday. And there are so many lies, I don't know which end is up anymore. The intitial woman he was sleeping with this summer supposedly ended it in August--at which point he became suicidal, and I did read the break-up letter she wrote him. I guess I don't really know what is what. How can I know if it is a new person or the same person?

I actually have sent him a Plan B letter. Here it is. (The problem is that it is really difficult to follow through on. I miss him, and I want to talk to him. I have shared my life with him for so many years that the void is cavernous--and I am scared, frightened, insecure, and doubtful that it will have the desired effect. People are asking me, "How long are you going to give it? How long are you going to wait for him?" And I don't know. I don't know anything other than he's not here, and I miss him.)

"Dear WH:

"Out of self-protection, I ask that we have no in-person contact. When I see you, I just cry and feel horrible about myself and everything that has happened. I feel so incredibly betrayed and hurt. I love you. I believe in you. I believe in me. And I believe in us. I am willing to do things differently. I have lots of questions and comments and ideas and I believe we can forge a healthy relationship. I do not want us to make the mistakes we have made in the past, and I want to create a new, healthy, loving life for us both. This cannot happen while you are pursuing other relationships.

"We must avoid seeing each other-- e-mail and telephone are fine, but when I see you in person, I am just reminded of how I failed you in the past. I feel like the lowest, most unworthy person in the world because we both betrayed each other. For my own mental health, I have to avoid seeing you in person. I do not want you to see me become a basket case, but because you want to be with other people, I feel worthless and sad and distraught. Each time I see you rips apart the scar tissue that has formed over the hole in my heart and blood just comes gushing forth, because you are pursuing other relationships.

I have so many things I want to talk with you about. I have so many questions, and I have some ideas about how we can do things differently. I want to change my behavior and I do feel like I have in many ways. But I can't see you in person while I believe you want to see other women. My self-esteem plummets when I see you because I am reminded of the many ways in which I failed you. I feel that you're looking for someone who can meet the needs that I did not. Here are a few of these needs, just from my perception :

"I was not there for you sexually (due to both the depression and the anti-depressants)

"I was not there for you socially (many things you wanted me to go to with you, and I didn't go)

"I did not pay attention to you or listen to you as carefully as I should

"I did not appreciate the many things you did for us.

"I expressed anger and frustration and annoyance at you when I should have been expressing appreciation and gratitude and admiration.

"I did not spend enough time with you, personal, uninterrupted, intimate time with you.

"I did not make you, who should be treated as the most special person in my life, a priority.

"But I'm not the only one who failed. When I see you, I am reminded very deeply of how much we have hurt each other, and that is almost too much for me to handle.

"When you want to permanently stop seeing other people I will be willing to discuss our future together--starting from scratch, the very beginning, the ground up. Until then, I ask that we have no in-person contact.

"I continue to love you.

Cherubino

"Here is a paragraph from an article on infidelity from the American Association of Marriage and Family Therapy website. It pertains to us both.

"Regarding the impact of discovery. . .

'"It is common for both spouses to experience depression (including suicidal thoughts), anxiety, and/or a profound sense of loss following the initial disclosure. The reactions of the betrayed spouse resemble the post-traumatic stress symptoms of the victims of catastrophic events. Common reactions to the loss of innocence and shattered assumptions include obsessively pondering details of the affair; continuously watching for further signs of betrayal, and the physiological hyperarousal, flashbacks and intrusive images. The most severely traumatized are those who had the greatest trust and were the most unsuspecting. The involved spouse may fear that they will be punished forever for the betrayal while they grieve the lost dreams associated with the affair.'"


I'll let you know what I think of the Dobson.

Thank you again for your insight.

Cherubino

Dear MSA and Jaysmom:

One more question.

I was reading through one of the links as to what you can expect when your spouse has an A. One of the things they encouraged was to reveal the A to people at WS's workplace--let the people know who are in the best position to help him. I could very easily inform his boss and a few of his colleagues there that he respects and that he has asked me not to inform--he says very few people know about the A there. People at his job have, in the past, seen him as "difficult." My objective would not be to get him to be fired. It would only be to inform the people who are in the best position to help him see what a fool he is making of himself.

WHAT WOULD YOU SUGGEST? And if I do inform his workplace, how much detail should I provide?

And thank you for your continued support.

Cherubino

AND YET--another question:

WH's birthday is on Friday. What should I do? What would you recommend? As I am in Plan B, I should not contact him on that day nor give him the present I have for him, right? Even though I really want to give it to him? (It is a journal I began last year documenting on a daily basis the ways he has helped me and other people in his life and the many positive things about him I admire.) Would this just play into his ego?

With much gratitude, Cherubino

I honestly would NOT give him a gift, would not call, contact, speak or anything to him. He doesn't deserve the gift you have for him.

My H left me 2 days before our 10 year anniversary. we had to go to sign some papers that afternoon and he never even mentioned the day. the week before, when he started staying away from home and not answering his phone etc. he actually had the nerve to use "i was trying to find you something for our big anniversary" ...jerk.

i just really think if you have moved to Plan B...don't do anything. It will bother him more if you don't acknowledge...he will expect you to. this might be a good way to show him you mean buisness. If you are doing Plan B ( and i am certainly no expert...) but you really must not contact him if at all possible or from my understanding it is not a true Plan B.

Again, you are in my prayers. both of you. Right now my H is sensing my change. He see's a different me. this is causing him worry. But i had to get here myself. God had to bring me here, all the while he has been getting my H where he is so that it falls into His plan. Keep praying! keep posting/reading. we are all here for each other!

Cherubino,
I would NOT give your WH such a special gift at this time. Keep it for a more appropriate occassion - such as recovery. He will not appreciate it right now anyway, and it will not work to "guilt" him into staying in your relationship by noting how special he is. That is not how you mean it, but it is how he will perceive it since he has feelings for OW.

Are you certain it is the same OW from work? If so, MB advice is EXPOSE EXPOSE EXPOSE. I would post on General Questions to all the experts on a question like exposure. I am no expert on that subject, I made the mistake of not doing it (wasn't at MB at the time). Always expose, and to the boss, Human Resources dept., and the OWH & your WH's family & friends as close together as you possibly can. Let everyone know at once. This make the A less likely to continue, since it is built on fantasy life.

You do run the risk that since you were not actually married in some people's eyes, that the boss, HR, and friends & family will "pardon" your WH's behavior and just view it as "moving on" to someone new as opposed to an affair. I would make this clear on the GQII forum, but see what the experts say. I know exposure is a very important thing to do they say, before Plan A, not sure how it fits in with Plan B.

Does your WH try to call you or email you? Do you initiate contact or does he?

MSA

I asked to speak with him yesterday. He came to the apt. He said he does not love me. He does not want to marry me. He is not paying his portion of the rent (which he agreed to last September). That is putting me in serious financial jeopardy. He says that he is very interested in someone, and he doesn't want anything to interfere with it , so he doesn't want me to contact him. Consequently, I have paid his portion of the rent, told him to move any personal belongings last night, had the landlord change the locks, and have removed him from health insurance. I will not be giving him the present on the 18th (his birthday), but I will be giving him a Plan B letter. I am prepared to follow through. I will not tolerate him "dating" other people and not keeping his financial obligations to me.

During the past three weeks, he has not intiated much contact. I have done the initiating.

I am really trusting that Plan B work at this point--was very inspired by the Dobson--I need to treat myself with respect. And I will not initiate contact with him any more. He no longer has access to me. I am excited to see what happens. Love, love, love the Dobson.

Just wanted to see how you were doing today? I hope you are hanging in there.

Yes you do need to treat yourself with respect! You didn't make him have an affair. Hearing it and believing it are hard sometimes. Our emotions are going crazy. we are every emotion God has given us at one time.

Hang in there, your in my prayers! jaysmom

Cherubino, as you can see from the Dobson, you have done all the right things as far as the letter, and insisting that being in a painful love triangle is NOT negotiable and you will NOT tolerate it. You have earned some of his respect for that, even if he won't admit it.

So, since you sort of did a letter already, are you planning to do a straight MB Plan B letter then today? (Or did already, I see today is almost over)... that is really crappy of his with the finances to, but you know... the fog...

I'm so glad you liked the Dobson. The next very helpful book with lots of tips on manipulative behavior by the WS etc was the Donald Harvey.

And MB is adamant about exposing the A... did you post on GQII at all about that?

MSA

Cherubino, I clicked on your name and saw that you posted your situation in a thread on GQII. There are a lot of helpful experts on that forum, but you have to be careful not to threadjack, just start a new thread by clicking the "Post" button rather than replying to an existing thread when it is an all-new subject with an all-new person. I know, awkward "netiquette", I'm still learning too. I moved your thread to a new thread, and we'll see if you get a better response...

MSA