I, personally, would scream at your fiance. You ain't got to be head cashier to the Wal-Mart to know that you should pay the Ex by tracable means whether it be through CSA, a check or money order with the a proper statement in the memo column. If for some reason he gives her cash he should request a hand written receipt before handing it over....

IMVHO, based on the past issues, y'all should have known better.

I don't scream at him. I treat him the way I expect to be treated. I said at the table last night, going over his child support paperwork; "please don't give her any more cash."

He does know better. But he is a conflict avoider. She has been blackmailing him. Give me money or I'll call up FoC and have you put in jail. He gives her money rather than deal with her playing games with their daughter in the middle.

He has NO faith in "the system" ... it has only screwed him.

What do I do about his conflict avoidance? About the same as I can do with his depression. Lovingly give the best advice I know.

“””I don't scream at him.”””

Obviously, I was joking. That being said, you seemed to have all your anger directed towards the Ex, which is the one factor in this whole situation where y’all have no control.

“””He does know better.”””

OK, then shame on him. That being said you can’t enable bad behavior or bad behavior will continue. And with this situation we’re dealing with something that takes money from you and your young ones. I, personally, think that more than just loving advice is in order.

“””But he is a conflict avoider. She has been blackmailing him. Give me money or I'll call up FoC and have you put in jail.”””

What type of payment plan is he on? Is there something in writing that spells it out? If she’s wanting him to follow a court ordered plan that’s no blackmail. And regardless of all of that, if he simply would write her a check when she makes her demands then all would be well or bring a money order with him. That has nothing to do with conflict avoidance, it’s just common sense.

“””What do I do about his conflict avoidance? About the same as I can do with his depression. Lovingly give the best advice I know.”””

I disagree. I don’t think you can enable poor behavior especially when that behavior has a huge impact and you and yours.

Even if you were OW...

Your H's previous wife can make any problem she wish, but it's up to your H to resolve conflicts and not to put You on the fire to solve them on behalf of him.
I.e., reading this I'm sure that if you changed your financial position, and putting some proper boundaries, problems his X might make would not affect you at all... shouldn't be allowed anyway...


He can be put in jail for skipping some of CS payments while he's unemployeed??

She had CS reviewed last summer when he was working massive overtime. The check stubs they used to compute how much he should be paying, were the highest of the year. If they had used an average per year income, it would be fair, as in construction, there are busy times and lean times. He was laid off for 3-4 months every winter, but worked upwards of 60 hours a week in the summer.

So they ordered he pay $XX per week. When we was working, it came out of his check. When he lost his job, it came out of unemployment. When that ran out ... well ... you can't squeeze blood from a turnip, but she tried.

Here, you can go to jail if you are behind on child support if the custodial parent files a form. She has had him jailed before, prior to this construction job and prior to my relationship with him beginning in 2001. So he knows when she brings it up, it is not an idle threat.

He should have never given her cash, I know. I KNOW. He listened to her sob story of how her hubby lost his job, trusted her, etc. and is paying for it. We all are.

I feel a little like I'm getting conflicting advice. I should not interfere in their business, but I should because it affects me/us ... I almost feel like I'm hearing that I need to control him more?

Does any of this change once we are married? ie. my status as wife, my 'role' if any with the step-daughter, ex-wife, support coming and going, etc.

Okay, 322 page views later ...

The "real" problem, as has been eluded to, is that my fiance lost his full time job, is now working part time, irregular hours.

Because of this, he has financial obligations that he cannot take care of. In addition, he cannot help with the household obligations.

Not sure what I can do.

He is very depressed and sometimes doesn't seem to be doing "everything in his power" to fix his/our situation. With no health insurance (until we are wed) and no money, he cannot be professionally treated for depression.

I am trying to be a supportive spouse-to-be. He has asked me to check into certain jobs/companies while I'm at work (have internet and fax access we don't have at home) and I have also printed out resumes and various job openings I've found. The lack of response to applications has been devastating to him. It is growing hard to keep saying, "Things will turn out for the best, you'll see."

“””She had CS reviewed last summer when he was working massive overtime. The check stubs they used to compute how much he should be paying, were the highest of the year.”””

Yikes, sounds like he had a terrible atty. Most atty’s would push income tax records to show yearly income.

“””He should have never given her cash, I know. I KNOW. He listened to her sob story of how her hubby lost his job, trusted her, etc. and is paying for it. We all are.”””

OK, lesson learned. DO you think he’ll make the same mistake again?

”””I feel a little like I'm getting conflicting advice. I should not interfere in their business, but I should because it affects me/us”””

I don’t see the conflict. I think everyone has encouraged you not to deal with her or write her and further encouraged you to deal with this where y’all have control and that’s with your fiancé. POJA if you will how he deals with this in the future. If he was taking money and flushing down the toilet would you lovingly advise him or deal with the problem? Well that’s what he’s done.

“””I almost feel like I'm hearing that I need to control him more?”””

If you got that from me that wasn’t intended. I do think he needs to be accountable for his poor choices. You came on here and threw a fire ball at your fiance’s ex, and all I’m saying is that part of that was misdirected. Your fiancé should shoulder much of the blame for not using common sense, heck you may even shoulder some of it for not suggesting that he do it. What I was further suggesting is that you look at where your power resides and use it. Giving his ex cash is a bad choice and you shouldn’t simply lovingly advise him. That will likely enable him to continue in bad behavior. Rather he needs to know that he screwed up and y’all work out a plan so it won’t happen again. And it sure don’t make a lick of sense for you to be footing a bill to stuff a dead animal while he’s in jeopardy of going to jail for back CS.

”””Does any of this change once we are married?”””

IMVHO, since y’all are living as a married couple now, I wouldn’t see where anything would change other than if she takes him to court for back payments any assets y’all jointly own could be in jeopardy. And of course, your roll as a step-mom goes without saying. But I don’t believe it ever becomes your place to deal with the Ex.

“””The "real" problem, as has been eluded to, is that my fiance lost his full time job, is now working part time, irregular hours.”””

Yes…. And that is where the power to change the entire situation resides.

”””Not sure what I can do.”””

That’s a tough one, because you truly can’t do it for him. Do y’all have a newspaper up your way? Maybe go through it daily with a highlighter and highlight ALL the possibilities. Us men folk draw a lot of our self worth from our employment so it’s really easy to step on his pride….

While he’s under employed y’all are going to have to pinch the pennies especially with winter coming up. TO me that means some of the extra’s go away. Unless that deer was a national record, I probably wouldn’t have agreed to stuff it. And somewhere along the lines if this continues, some tough love techniques may have to be implemented unless you are willing to support him.

He didn't have an attorney last summer. What is done here, is once every two years, the custodial parent can ask for the child support to be reviewed. They then take down all of the current work and insurance information for BOTH parents, last few paycheck stubs, etc. and make a CS recommendation to the court. His CS obligation was raised as a result. (I have also been screwed by the same policy ... my ex took a lower paying job, so was able to get a recommendation that he pay LESS. He also pays less if I make more money; and my fiance pays MORE because his ex wasn't working!)

What happens is when the deer head is ready in 5-6 months, he pays for it or it sits at the taxidermist. Right? I wasn't exactly 'asked' for my input on that issue. He got a big 10 point, was all excited about it, and that's just what you do when you get your first "wallhanger" ... now if he'd wanted to have his little 6 pointer stuffed, I'd probably have done the hands on my hips, tapping my toe look at him. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> But I know what it means to him.

I'm not sure the added expense was such a great thing at this time, but perhaps his mind was on where he'd like to be in six months, and the fact that you can't exactly go back have a shoulder mount done later, after the cape is gone ...

Should my thread be named, my fiance makes bad financial decisions? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

Here is my HUGE concern and that is that nothing changes. I know you know all the MB principles and all that and I know you have a great working knowledge of the situation. But you are also emerced (sp) in the situation and it's hard to in from the inside.

I also believe that it's going to be extremely difficult for you not to start forming some resentments over the dealing with the Ex and employment. It's a tricky deal. Sadly, I've seen a lot of 'depressed' people half heartidly seek employment and remain under or unemployed for long periods further sinking into debt until it's unmanagable.

So what is your expectation/boudary on these two issues?

1. Gainful Employment
2. Money to Ex

"Should my thread be named, my fiance makes bad financial decisions?"
Yes, and if you weren't in love and living with this many I'll tell you to run as fast as you can from this conflict avoider with bad financial sense. (Yes, you are describing my X to a tee). Run, run.

XPB, my comments are based on the current situation where my X is threatening to seek more custody and I believe it is only to look good in the girlfriends eyes. He has many opportunities to take the kids and doesn't, but now he's threatening legal means.
I no longer have to deal with his conflict avoidance and poor financial choices on a day to day basis, but sadly, I still need to deal with the aftermath.

We have spent the last two years working on his credit score, preparing for this house. We expected we would be going into the mortgage together. He paid off old collections, kept his loan current, did not incur new delinquent accounts. He planned on handing over his checks when we moved in together, as I am the one more budget-minded. Even with the old accounts paid off, his score was too low for us to get approved. Amazingly, they did approve me for the mortgage and the house is in my name only.

I didn't know his work history until we did up his new resume together. Prior to this job, he worked various positions and gave different reasons for leaving, but there wasn't anything more than a few years at any place. This last job, had been his longest lasting and highest paying by far.

This is stuff I know, this is the past, this is nothing I can change.

Expectations/boundaries ...

He gives me cash when he wants me to write a check for him. The exception being the very recent check I just sent in for his child support, trying to get him enrolled in an Amnesty Program so she CAN'T have him thrown in jail.

I don't give him cash. My money is the household money, and just barely gets us by. Things he really wants, like satellite and internet, I have told him will need to wait until he's working full time and can pay for them. I can't and won't. At most, I have put gas in his truck when he didn't have enough to get to a job, or he has used my more-affordable car to pick up his daughter.

On the employment ... not sure what else I can do. I find jobs, he applies. Nothing. I check up to see if he has called. Not sure if it has been on the news where you are but the Michigan blue collar job market is DEAD. I am hoping that the work that he is doing with his partner picks up enough to make it worthwhile. They have a lot of machine owners interested ... just waiting to hear back from managers, get signed contracts, etc. Like any startup business ... this is the make-or-break period. If they could just get 4-6 machines a day, they could work 4 days a week and be making good money. Right now, it's 4-6 machines a week, in a good week. It's the waiting that's stressing them out.

On the ex ... what can I do? I can do nothing ... or I can try and help out while he gets back on his feet, and keep him out of jail. Shouldn't I? How will jail help his job situation? I really feel like I have to send money in for his back CS ... if he does go to jail, who pays to bail him out? Who pays for court costs? Who is home when the kids get home from school? I gotta pay for child care plus all those fees on top of CS, or I can start chipping away at his debt while he continues to look for work. I don't see any plus side to not paying.

Sounds like you're putting a lot of your own time into these problems that your fiance is having with his ex-wife.

What would happen if he wasn't with you? Would he try harder to meet his obligations or would he let the child support lag?

“””I didn't know his work history until we did up his new resume together.”””

Really, that’s odd that y’all never talked about it.

“””Prior to this job, he worked various positions and gave different reasons for leaving, but there wasn't anything more than a few years!”””

Ouch, you know I’m going to say here RED FLAG…. As you’ve said we can’t change the past but it would also be insane for you to think this won’t continue.

“””This is stuff I know, this is the past, this is nothing I can change.”””

That is very true, but you will have to figure out what you are willing to live with.

”””Not sure ! if it has been on the news where you are but the Michigan blue! collar job market is DEAD.”””

No I haven’t heard anything about it but I can understand that. He may have to get a green collar one or whatever is below blue collar……lol…. McDonalds and Wal-Mart are almost always hiring and typically this time of the year Wal-Mart is looking for season help....

“””I can do nothing ... or I can try and help out while he gets back on his feet, and keep him out of jail. Shouldn't I?”””

Oh yes you should, I totally agree, and don’t think I alluded to anything different. But you also have a responsibility to ensure that he is handling things responsibly.

“””I don't see any plus side to not paying.”””

Again, I don’t think anyone has said you shouldn’t pay. It does sound like you are going to have to guide him rather than lovingly advise him on how to deal with the job thing and the ex thing.

Just a question ... not getting all defensive, but honestly now ...

How many people really know all the gory details of a person's work history or credit report BEFORE they have become fairly invested and committed in a relationship?

I'd venture to guess that a lot of people don't know this stuff until after they are married.

Do y'all just bring this up during casual dates? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Sorry, but I've been married (in my heart of hearts if not on paper) and committed to this man for several years ... and "running away" isn't part of the game plan.

God bless ya'll that have married perfect people with stellar work histories and great credit scores, who also meet your emotional needs, cook dinner and rub your feet. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Back to serious now ... this is the most effort I've had to put into dealing with his ex in over four years; it has all been kept between them until this point.

I had a sketchy work history and really bad credit and huge credit card debt when we started dating. Good thing he didn't check up on all that! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I'm just trying to make light of a difficult situation. God knows I have had some concerns, especially that he was living at home again when we started dating, due to poor money management; but unlike all of you reading about this problem on the other side of the screen, I also know about all of his wonderful qualities. They do trump the flaws. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Quote

How many people really know all the gory details of a person's work history or credit report BEFORE they have become fairly invested and committed in a relationship?

I can only speak for myself, but I always ask if the guy has debts, if he believes in carrying a credit card balance, if he's a spender or a saver....things like that paint a pretty good picture of how he'll behave in a long term relationship. I don't think there's anything wrong with that--once you're married, it's too late for those questions!

Quote

Sorry, but I've been married (in my heart of hearts if not on paper) and committed to this man for several years ... and "running away" isn't part of the game plan.

No doubt that you're commited to this man, Buttercup! I know just from what I've read about you that you're strong and running away DEFINITELY isn't in the cards. Here's my issue with it--when do you become your fiance's saviour/doormat? When does he take responsibility for his own life? I think you're going WAY beyond the call of duty and I wonder when your giver is going to check out.

I know it's a bit humbling to be offered 10/hr for a job that used to pay 20-30, but isn't 10/hr better than nothing? Employers don't like to see "dead spots" in your resume--a 10/hr job pays 10/hr no matter how you slice it AND it fills your resume while you search for something that pays more. I wonder why your fiance doesn't see it this way, especially since you're going through great pains to support him on your own salary!

“””Do y'all just bring this up during casual dates? “””

Yes….

”””Sorry, but I've been married (in my heart of hearts if not on paper) and committed to this man for several years ... and "running away" isn't part of the game plan.”””

I didn’t suggest that. However with the knowledge you have, you are responsible to ensure you do the right thing. If you know he can’t manage money, YOU MANAGE IT. If you know his Ex will take cash if he has it, he don’t get cash.

”””God bless ya'll that have married perfect people with stellar work histories and great credit scores, who also meet your emotional needs, cook dinner and rub your feet.”””

Now you’re just being silly……lol….

”””this is the most effort I've had to put into dealing with his ex in over four years; it has all been kept between them until this point.”””

And we can see where it’s gotten him. He obviously needs help from you. Not that you deal with her, but you deal with him and he in turn deals with her.

“””I'm just trying to make light of a difficult situation.”””

I know and sometimes my communication is such that I draw people to defensiveness.

“””God knows I have had some concerns, especially that he was living at home again when we started dating, due to poor money management; but unlike all of you reading about this problem on the other side of the screen, I also know about all of his wonderful qualities. They do trump the flaws.”””

That’s fine and I’m sure he is a wonderful guy, heck we all come with baggage. But now that you know his flaws, you are also responsible for protecting you and the family from them. Financial management seems to be a continuous thing, work with him on a structured budget with him contributing all his money to the family and getting back an allotted allowance to live within. It’s not controlling, it is responsible.

aeri -- it's not that he's used to $20 so won't take $10 ... he is applying for dozens of $10 jobs and getting NO call backs ... it is abysmal here.

Right now he's making $10-25/hr. depending on the machine and distance ... once they are working 40 hour weeks, we'll be set. It's the waiting that kills ya ...

I'm still glad I didn't call and lash out at the ex. Today has been very trying ... can't get access to his past due support balance since I don't have a husky enough voice *G* and I need that to finish up this Amnesty Program paperwork. With his SSN and case no. I can get some of the info by computer but not the specific thing I need. We have no phone at home, hard for him to call and get this info ... one thing after another ...

Just seems to be a difficult period we're going through right now. Things will look up. This has probably been my biggest vent in years, possibly the only one that doesn't have anything to do with MY ex! LOL

XPB, my run comments were in reference to my X - very similar. And though I did ask the financial questions, I later learned he lied - alot. It is definitely one of my red flags.

I know things are tough for you now, but remember to count your blessings. There are so many good things in your life.
Keep everything in perspective.

Is your guy handy? I know where I live it is impossible to find a handyman to do minor tasks. Could he hang a sign in a deli to do work around people's homes? Or painting or cleaning, or even hanging Christmas lights. I realize these may not be options in your area, but it may be time to think outside the box.