Okay all, I've stayed away on purpose because I've been hiding...because I'm very ashamed of myself...because I really stink at all this.

I am still seeing the guy I started seeing back in July. I really, really do care a great deal for him (as in I am making myself ill right now thinking about my life without him in it).

Why am I thinking this? Oh yeah, we've weathered some tough things. The initial intro to the relationship was a tricky thing. Then there's been my daughter. There have been some other things, but so far we're together and have been doing quite well.

But here's the HUGE and HUMILIATING TO ME issue. After thinking I'd very much learned my lesson to never end up in bed with someone before I was married to them after that big mess with the guy I dated 5 times last summer, yes, I ended up there with him. It actually happened a couple months ago, and has continued.

It bothered me a little at first, but the more it happens, the guiltier I feel afterwards. I keep running into these things about fornicators not inheriting the kingdom of God (read: you have sex outside marriage and you don't turn from the sin but just keep doing it right in front of God's face, you will not be saved). And last night I was just flipping through radio stations and could have landed on ANYTHING, but I happened to land on a Christian station, and what little time I spent listening...the subject just happened to be sexual immorality. Think God is speaking to me??

I have no idea how to stop something we've started and taken this far without just ending the relationship. And that thought is sending me into an extreme anxiety attack. I truly do love him. Yes, he has flaws. I see more of them as I go on, but none are big things. The only big thing that sort of worries me is that although we talk about things we might do in the future, and we both agree that living together will never happen, he is very nervous about his two prior "burns" and is in no hurry in this relationship to go anywhere permanent.

The other thing that makes me nervous is that at one point we were discussing sex and how I'm struggling with it in our current situation, and he said, "Well, we can't exactly take it back once we start it". Now that could mean what's done is done, but what I think the statement and the tone meant is, "LL, don't be doing it once and then thinking you're going to throw on the brakes."

I know he doesn't want to give it up. Heck, I don't either! We are darned compatable, and I found out that in four months I feel oodles more comfortable around him in intimate situations than I ever felt with my ex except when I had a lot of drinks in me. That's what makes this so hard.

And it's not like we live 10 miles apart where we could just tone it down for a few months, be careful and see each other only in public but see each other frequently so as to get to know each other really well, and then get married.

We are 115 miles apart. He has classes to finish toward his doctorate that will take another couple years. I also know that it would not work having him and my daughter in the same house before she turns 18, which again will be nearly 2 years. I can't move over there--I have a really good job over here that I worked up to, there's no way I could get the same over there with the same benefits. We can't live on reduced wages and his current teachers salary and his total lack of insurance benefits.

So we are looking at a long-distance thing for a good 2 years. Okay, except that when you do LDR's you tend to spend more time with the person when you DO get together, because you're not together as often. And much of that time in our case is spent in private, because with gas prices so high, we don't have a lot of going-out-to-eat funds, so we generally rent a movie and sit around home and snack on popcorn and stuff. And then when I'm at his place if his kids decide they're staying at Grandma's, we end up sleeping together, as do we when he's at my place and we know my DD is out of town for the weekend.

It has been so wonderful, and yet the guilt and the fear of God's repercussions are eating me alive!

This is why Christians should NEVER, NEVER, NEVER have sex outside marriage, no matter what the reasons, no matter what.

I am looking at incredible pain, because while he professes to be a Christian, I don't think he's going to stand for me throwing on the brakes to something that's been hot-and-heavy (and I'm 50% to blame) for nearly 3 months.

Yes, it never should have happened that soon. Stupid situation...us, at my place alone, heavy petting got way too heavy, and we both caved. We both admitted that it was way sooner than even we expected to deal with it. But did that stop us? NO! And once it happened, it's just that much harder to not do again and yet continue seeing each other.

I'm not even sure what or why I"m writing. I needed to vent. Some of you guys know me (and know what a weak hypocrite I apparently am).

The holidays are coming up. We've been looking forward to them. My DD is creating major situations right now, is basically done with school, and has been throwing hints that she's going to leave the state with someone though she won't give me any info. I am struggling on a lot of fronts. I need God's help, but I'm hiding from him because I can't face him and do what I'm doing.

Talk about creating a mess! So I've written a letter that I'm going to rewrite and rewrite and finally I'm going to have to get the guts to either read it to BF or give it to him. I don't know how. I'm scared to death that he'll walk. My mind knows that if he does, this means he wasn't committed and we shouldn't have been together anyway. But I don't want him to!

UGH>>>

LL (who has totally made a mockery of her life)

I was afraid you were hiding from us for a reason, but I had hoped it was because things were going well, and you were really just busy, but in a good way. It concerned me that you weren't posting much about yourself, and you weren't posting in response to anyone else either. I should've reached out and slapped ya silly! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

(((((((LL)))))) just want you to know I'm here, and I'm reading. I don't think you're a hypocrite... just that you're struggling with a tough decision you tried to make.

Hang in there... I'm proud of you for posting. You know we love you, and we're here for you.

Don't have any wisdom for you at the moment... just wanted you to know I was here, and thinking of you 'sis.

hugs,
Faith1

Hey lordslady,

I tried to Private Message you, but it seems PMs are disabled (maybe for me, maybe for all <shrug>).

I believe I could provide some insight on things, but I'd rather not discuss them on an open forum at this time.

Would you want to discuss this issue you're having through email or maybe yahoo messenger?

(( [color:"blue"] LL [/color] ))
Like [color:"blue"] Faith1 [/color] , I had also wondered why you hadn't been posting. And I'm sure it took some guts to post today, and I admire you for it! Fortunately, nothing that you've done cannot be forgiven by our loving Father. Whether you are Calvinist, Armenian, or have a Reformed Theology, God can and will forgive this. At what point will you be ready to take that first step and ask Him? It's an easy decision - and not one you need to beat yourself up over. Once you do that, and work on THAT relationship, you can work on your relationship situation with your BF.

[color:"blue"] ManofGod [/color] - No offense, but it's not wise for LL to chat privately with a stranger of another gender. I'm sure you meant well. That's why all PMs are disabled in these forums. There are a lot of vulnerable people here, and it could easily be abused. If it's something that can't be posted openly, then maybe it should just be withheld.

(((LL)))

I suppose you're waiting for ole LH to thump ya with that Bible and beat you over the head with the 2x12. Well I don't think I'm going to but we'll see. I've followed your story and honestly saw your love for the Lord in your posts. I think after the last incident I beat you up pretty good because I saw that desire to be Godly conflicted with the desires of the flesh and quite frankly the misplaced need to feel desirable to man. When you took you break from here, there was pretty much no doubt in my mind why you left and what you've said pretty much confirms it.

Now you're left standing at the crossroads again and I have to say each time you turn your back you walk further away. While He'll always be there, it gets harder and harder to turn around. At some point you are going to have to decide who you are going to serve. If it is God, then you already know what you're going to have to do, repent and sin no more. That you've reached the point where justifications no longer carry you bring me great fear for you. Because once you can no longer justify it, then it's plain disobedience. I've walked that path before in my life with other issues.

The further you travel the closer you get to being lost rather than saved not because He'll banish you but pride will keep you from him. I could go on for hours and days sharing my experiences from the crossroads but I'm going to leave it with a couple of things. First, pick up the book Screwtape Letters by CS Lewis, I think it might shed some light on the fight going on within you. Second, read the book of James, it's a short book packed with a ton of info for those experiencing trials.

Hugs, Thoughts, & Prayers

Hi LL.

I read you message with a great deal of understanding. I have had the same temptations. I have also spent a great deal of time thinking about this, talking with pastors, and praying about it. You might be interested in my conclusions:

1. Intimacy with a person we care for, is not going to get us sent to h*!#$l. I think we are judged by our entire life not just one or two weaknesses. Also, a committed relationshipo is far different from the promiscuous realtionships that I believe are being referred to.

2. A Catholic Priest (those celibate guys) once told me that God gave us our sexuality for two reasons. One was to propogate our species. The other was for our pleasure. Remember, HE MADE US THIS WAY. This is not to be used as an excuse for promiscuous or crude behavior. Note the behavior of many old testament men who had multiple wives and concubines.

3. In New Testament Times, you would not have this problem because in all probability you would already be DEAD, or in such poor health, that sex would not be a big issue for you.

But, today, we live longer and healthier. We are physcial beings, God made us that way. And today, we are in bettter shape than ever. I saw a photo recently of my grandmother in her 50's. Compared to many women I know today in their 50's she looked so much older! And I know for a fact she had many physical ailments that today can be cured and/or treated (arthritis for one). It only makes sense to think that our physical desires and needs stay with us longer and our stronger today than they were in NT times or even 100 years ago.

4. God forgives us. Even if I am 100% wrong and it is a sin, sex is not some sort of SUPER SIN that is not forgivable. When asked the most imporant commandments Jesus did not give us a list of DO NOT's or THOU SHALT NOT'S. He told us it is what we did in LOVE. Loving God and loving our fellow human beings.

5. Finally, let me add that some pastors and religious people love to burder the believer with a heavy load of rules, just like the Pharisees of OT times did. Jesus had a few tough words for these people. No fallible human being can keep them all. Again, this is not meant to be a license for immoral, promiscuous behavior, just a reminder that Christianity is NOT a set or rules to be followed. It is far more than that. It is about loving God and loving our fellow humans.

That's my two cents.

I bet your BF would be open-minded about it, if you truly wanted to stop having sex. My last BF, a former preacher, struggled with this issue, and when he finally felt convicted about it, I was releived and was willing and enthusiastic about wanting to stop our behavior. We are still "taking a break", we're friends, and I'm not sure if we will see each other again, but I BET there are MORE people out there than would admit, that would be releived if their partner wanted to stop and wait, and they can work together and help each other. Sometimes we have sex, and CONTINUE to have sex because we think our partner WANTS to, or we think we don't have the strength to say NO on our own. If it's important to you, and if he loves you, he'll help you with this issue, and ya'll can work together to stop and find your boundaries so that you can maintain your commitment. I still hear you saying that you're afraid of losing him over this decision... and as LH said, you have to decide which Master to serve... and decide how important this issue is to YOU. If it's important, then you have to be willing to lose your BF over this issue. You have to BE yourself, and be TRUE to yourself. If he doesn't love you enough to respect your boundary, then it's OK to lose him... do you see that?

All of you, thanks for caring. Faith, thanks for slapping me silly. LH, thanks for the 2x12.

I am honestly physically sick today. I am supposed to go over to BH's house today for the weekend, to celebrate thanksgiving with his parents and his kids. I'm going.

First, I don't believe I've committed an unforgivable sin. That's not the issue. The issue is that if I CONTINUE to commit it, full well knowing that I'm sinning. That's what I have been doing, and God's voice has been getting louder and louder to the point it's pretty much yelling at me right now.

I truly want to serve the Lord. When BF and I first met and we talked beliefs, I made it very clear that I wanted someone with shared beliefs and that it was very important that the Lord came first. But my actions have not shown that.

My BF didn't lead me anywhere I wasn't quite willing to go, and he's going to be completely floored if I bring up that this needs to stop, becuase it was just two days ago when we were emailing some stuff and I was talking about how wonderful everything was in that area. It's going to be an extreme shock that he has no idea is coming.

I have no idea how to bring it up and I'm fairly certain that if it doesn't kill the relationship immediately, it will kill it over a short period of time.

I'm stuck in that awful place where WS's get stuck, where they have all these feelings for the other person and yet they know it's wrong. Except in this case it wasn't wrong for me to think of a future with him--that was my intent in dating him.

I am so afraid of my eternal security. I was raised with the belief that once you were saved, you were saved. But the question in my mind, when actions like this come up and the person isn't willing to turn from them, is "but was the person ever really saved in the first place?"

Truly, I believed during my closer moments with the Lord that I was totally secure for eternity. So why am I now where I am, and why can't I just turn and walk away from it and run to God? Why am I so insistant in trying to keep this relationship going, when I know the risk for falling into the same behavior again is nearly impossible to avoid, given what has transpired over the last months and our comfort level with each other?

How to I even begin this topic with BF? I don't think handing him a 7 page letter is the answer. I want him to know how much I love him, and how I want to believe that we are stronger than this, with God's help, and that if our relationship is as good as we both think it is (and of course, I don't know what he thinks becuase ultimately I can't read his mind, only his actions), that we should start over and try to do it right.

But we're looking at 2 years at least of no marriage possibilities. I don't know a man out there willing to wait 2 years WHILE IN A RELATIONSHIP and not have sex. It's different if you're not dating--still difficult, but when there's no one there, you have to go out and actively seek it. In this case, we're there with each other, and the thoughts are right there, too.

I want to cry, but I'm so numb from the anxiety right now that I can't.

I love God. I could ask him for forgiveness right now, but I"ve not had the talk with BF, I have no idea if I'll cave this weekend, and it all just seems so screwed up. So I feel very alone, and very ashamed.

LH, you're right in a way, when I cease to be able to justify something I'm doing, then it's wrong and I need to turn from it. On the other hand, if anything positive can be said about this, it's that because I'm having such a hard time justifying it and I'm feeling such intense guilt, I know that my heart hasn't been hardened to sin. That's where I think the hope tends to be lost.

What to do guys?? How do I do this??

((LL))

I can really relate to you physically sick feelings as I’m sure many battle tested Christians can. What I was meaning with that justification statement was when we’re are justifying what we know to be bad behavior, that’s the spiritual battle between good and evil. Eventually, we come to a place where we can no longer live with or justify it and that’s where we either choose to turn towards or turn away from God. It’s further my belief that my relationship with God only goes two directions that’s up and down, it never remains stagnant, so I’m either growing with Christ or falling from Him.

“””The issue is that if I CONTINUE to commit it, full well knowing that I'm sinning. That's what I have been doing, and God's voice has been getting louder and louder to the point it's pretty much yelling at me right now.”””

You hear the battle cry in your head and that’s good. Here’s where things get scary for me. I believe you’re an intelligent lady and obviously you know what you’re doing is sin. So when do you turn from it? Does shame or pride keep you apart from rather than apart of the Glory of God? He’s waiting, he always waits however if you never turn back to Him then where will you go? It’s easy to say, I’ll repent tomorrow or the next day or next year or in two years after I’m married but you don’t have salvation for tomorrow you only have salvation for today. IMVHO the blood of Christ did not buy our sins rather it leased them. Thus if we have faith without works and don’t live up to our end of the bargain, our lease is terminated.

”””I have no idea how to bring it up and I'm fairly certain that if it doesn't kill the relationship immediately, it will kill it over a short period of time.”””

Your BF professes to be a Christian, then bring it up much as you’ve brought it up here. Tell him of the emotional/spiritual battle that is swirling within you and ask for some ‘safe’ time to work through it. To be honest, if it kills the relationship I’d highly question what the value of that relationship is.

”””So why am I now where I am, and why can't I just turn and walk away from it and run to God?”””

IMVHO, self-will. We seek to have a wholeness filled by man that can only be filled by God. Christians devastated by divorce are easier targets for the other side. As our self esteem and self worth plummet we look for a quick fix. Many find it in the flesh and feel love and life again but that’s a fleeting and often false emotion.

“””that we should start over and try to do it right.”””

I actually know quite a few couple who have done this and it’s worked well for them so don’t discount it.

”””I love God. I could ask him for forgiveness right now, but I’ve not had the talk with BF, I have no idea if I'll cave this weekend”””

That’s your choice. It’s not a matter of if you’ll cave, it’s a conscience decision.

I "amen" everything that [color:"blue"] LH [/color] said! He said it so well, too.

[color:"blue"] LL [/color] , please keep posting as you work through this. I am sure you're not the first - or the only - one here who has had this struggle.

LH,

What is keeping me apart from God is shame. There is no pride to it. I am totally ashamed of what I'm doing, and I'm hiding. How stupid is that? God can see everything I'm doing. I'm just afraid to talk to him because I feel like he can't hear me, I don't know what to say, I don't even know where to start. I did pray a bit last night, just shared my dilemma and my feelings and my struggle of how to deal with it. But I feel far, far away from him and that is a sickening feeling.

As for finding a "safe" time and place to talk to my BF, seriously how is it best to approach something like that with a guy? I know without a doubt it's his top EN, so removing it from the relationship is going to be very difficult because there's going to be a gaping hole. I also don't know how to bring it up without having him immediately put up his defenses and get tense. I want him to somehow know how difficult it is for me, too, and that I'm not doing it to be mean or to hurt him, but that I have to put the Lord first, and the Lord says "no" to what we are doing.

The chicken part of me says I should just bolt from this relationship, suffer through what will be serious pain and sadness for a while, and then not date because I'm going to face this over and over. I'm almost feeling like not even trying because I don't want to have to deal with his hurt and his disappointment and what will most likely anger disguised as sarcasm from him, if it's not just outright voiced. I don't want watch the painful demise of what has been a wonderful four months. I don't want him to be unhappy or hurt, and it's painful for me to see it, especially when I'll know I'm the cause of it. But that's totally unfair to him.

I know I'm not very optimistic. I so want to believe that miracles will happen and that this could be a positive turning point for our relationship where it could grow in new directions. And if sex was say #4 or #5 on his EN list, perhaps it might, but it's not. I don't know how to fill that need in other ways for him. And so in looking at what usually happens in situations like this, where the guy says to the girl something ugly about her being a tease, and then tells her to get lost.

As for the Christian thing, there are a lot of professing Christians out there who don't have my issue with sex before marriage being wrong. He seems to be one of them, because it doesn't seem to be bothering him.

Maybe God does want me to not be with anyone? And yes, it does feel good to be with someone, to be held and loved and to be intimate with them after the h*ll I went through over the last years of my marriage and thru the divorce.

I wish this were all a dream and I could wake up. But that's the problem, it has been sort of a dream and now I'm startin to wake up, and I'm hating it.

LL

“””I am totally ashamed of what I'm doing, and I'm hiding. How stupid is that? God can see everything I'm doing.”””

Are you calling me stupid….lol…. I think most all of us go through that in one form or another with one issue or another in our life. Heck, the ole boy that ended up in the whales belly went through it, didn’t he? I can totally understand that shame. I believe our Lord wants to turn that shame in humility. Funny how he takes tough times in our lives and turns them into character building teaching moments. It would be wonderful to get back into the habit of praying and listening. That you feel so far away from Him is sad but one thing I can guarantee you is that while you may be far away from Him, He is right beside you ready and eager to take all of your burdens and embrace you back into His flock.

“””As for finding a "safe" time and place to talk to my BF, seriously how is it best to approach something like that with a guy?”””

Straight forward. No 72 page letter. No story telling. No blah blah blah…. Just straight forward. Briefly remind him of your earlier talks about Christianity and then tell him that you are struggling with how this fits in with it. Tell him how you feel that this issue has driven a wedge between you and God. Ask him how he feels about it. Then set your physical boundary and stick to it. Don’t set this or have this talk after y’all ‘do it’, have it before anything happens. (((LL))) If he has a loving Christian heart he will have compassion for the situation. If he doesn’t then he won’t and if that’s the case, I don’t think you’d be happy with him anyway.


“””I don't want him to be unhappy or hurt, and it's painful for me to see it, especially when I'll know I'm the cause of it. But that's totally unfair to him.”””

I firmly believe in placing responsibility squarely where it belongs, so if I thought that you CAUSED him unhappiness or pain, I would say so but in this instance you didn’t. You were up front with him. He took, you gave or vice versa, either which way he ain’t got to be head cashier at the Wal-Mart to know where you stood. You both brought this thing to this place, thus you equally share responsibility.

On a side note, not all men have SF as a top need. Heck, some of us ain’t even got it in our top 5.

“””Maybe God does want me to not be with anyone?”””

Maybe God wants to pick someone for you rather than you settling for self will. Maybe this is the one and He’s calling you to do it right. Whatever Gods motive we know one thing and that’s what you’re doing now does not glorify Him.

LH, thanks for understanding, but also for being so straightforward and honest. I am really struggling emotionally and spiritually.

I am leaving in about 2 hours to drive over to BF's place. We won't probably have time alone until this evening, and even then it may be 'iffy', depending on if his son stays at his place with us tonight or with his grandparents. But I have to find the time to talk about this while I'm there. It's not an over-the-phone conversation.

I am probably going to take my 12 pages of thoughts/notes unless you tell me that's totally going off the deep end and will drive him away in a flash. I tend to lose my composure and my train of thought. I'd like to be able to refer to thoughts I've mulled over with this struggle. Do you think that'll offend him, if I don't just hand them to him to read?

Technically, if his son keeps us from having alone time tonight, I could potentially wait until he comes here for Thanksiving to talk to him. He's supposed to come this way Thur-Sun. But I don't want him to feel like he's "trapped" over at my place and getting hammered. I'd rather do it on his turf.

I know I'm not glorifying God. And that's a good point to bring up, pretty much word for word, with my BF. In my fantasy world, I'd love to believe he was "the one" because there are so many good things about it. We share interests, he's intelligent and witty, there are things he gets about snuggling and just being close that other guys don't seem to get (and he is the initiator of that so I know he's not just doing it to hook me), I like his kids and they're also not little kids (I'm not sure I want to start raising another young family with someone), and actually he was so afraid I'd freak out about his football enthusiasm, and I'm very much enjoying it. We enjoy the same movies, similar music, we are comfortable going to church together. I'm interested in his life and what his goals are...and he's recognized that and brought it to my attention, how he appreciates that I am so willing to listen and to care and that I am interested. (We are also both very cold blooded and both HATE Iowa winters and have a goal when we're older and are able, to go where snow does not fly!)

But all this may not be anything in God's eyes. You're right, God may have someone else, or he may have no one.

Any last words of advice before I hit the road?

LL

Here's my advice, if y'all are going to have 'the talk' then condence those 12 pages of notes into 5 sentences. You can remember 5 sentences and I believe you can express this desire in 5 sentences or less. At the end of those 5 sentences he's going to pretty much do one of three things.

1. Accept your boundary
2. Reject your boundary
3. Try to negotiate your boundary

If he does 1 or 2, you have no need for the 12 pages because the choice is made. If he does 3, then you could say that you've jotted down some notes on this because it's been eating you alive.

As far as sending a clear message let me stress something again, DO NOT SLEEP WITH HIM TONIGHT AND THEN HAVE THE TALK TOMORROW, that totally sends the wrong message. Let your actions be in-line with your words.

On another side note, if you don't have the talk this weekend or you find yourself weak this weekend, please, please, please come back monday and talk with us. And please consider reading James and the other book I suggested.

Hugs, Thoughts, & Prayers

Psalm 145:17-21: "The LORD is righteous in all his ways, and holy in all his works. The LORD is nigh unto all them that call upon him, to all that call upon him in truth. He will fulfil the desire of them that fear him: he also will hear their cry, and will save them. The LORD preserveth all them that love him: but all the wicked will he destroy. My mouth shall speak the praise of the LORD: and let all flesh bless his holy name for ever and ever."

LL - I haven't posted to you in a long time. I can sense your pain, though I don't understand your views totally. I have a different take on things for me personally - though I suspect the result will be the same, for different reasons.

Anyway, I believe you have to live with yourself first - look at yourself in the mirror first - answer to your God first. Your bf comes after that. There is a potential risk to whatever you do at this point. My only advice is to either rethink your position - or follow your beliefs and be prepared to accept the consequences. You might end up pleasantly surprised by the outcome - or not. But, I don't see any other options besides these.

Good luck! If nothing else, be glad to know you're capable of love again! That's worth quite a lot.

Hey avondale25,
Point well taken, I understand. I try to avoid putting stumbling blocks in my fellow brothers and sisters. Counseling one on one avoids this by tailoring the discussion for them specifically. Doing this in a public forum opens up that. However, the needs of lordslady is why I will open up and speak with her.

Hey lordslady,
I wanted to talk with you about your belief system -- where it came from, what church denomination, etc. I have studied Christianity deeply for over 17 years, exploring my own beliefs and establishing truths that don't always accompany what most churches teach and believe.

It troubles me greatly to see the number of Christians who mindlessly parrot what they believe are biblical truths.

Any Christian is welcome to answer these questions for me. Please include the version of the Bible that you referenced when answering these questions.

You feel the need to ask God for forgiveness. Where does it tell us in the New Testament to ask God for forgiveness? I ask specifically for New Testament, because of the fulfillment of Christ dying on the cross. i.e. we no longer make sacrifices to God for our sins as they did in the Old Testament.

Where does it say that sex before marriage is a sin? You called it fornication, where is the word fornication mentioned in the bible (New Testament or old)? All sin used to be purged through stoning and death, yet the single verse in the Old Testament that speaks even close to something referring to sex before marriage, did not require a stoning or death to resolove the matter. Why do you think this is?

What is repentance? It is not asking for forgiveness, so what is it really and what is it's purpose?

From the guilt that you express, I would say that your inner thoughts are based on your teachings more so than conviction that comes from the Holy Spirit. Conviction leads us to repentance. Guilt makes us feel bad. How do you feel?

Do you believe that Jesus died for all man's sins? Either he did or he didn't. If he did, why do Christians focus so heavily on sin?

I do not believe that pre-marital sex in a loving and monogomous relationship is sin. There is no evidence that supports that it is sin. I'm still looking for it, so if I find it, I will change my beliefs as I have throughout my Christian life. Regardless if it is sin or not, we are dead to sin, unbound by it and free from the punishments of it.

Those are my thoughts, I hope that I have not caused too many to stumble by them or to cause you to walk in judgment of me for them.

I'm not sure that it matters whether sex is his #1 EN or not. In dating, EN's cannot be met at the same level as they are in marriage. Financial Support is the same way - you wouldn't expect your boyfriend to pay all your bills. Family Commitment - you don't expect each other to discpline the kids (there's a recent thread or 2 talking about BF/GF interfering with teachers and such). Domestic Support - cleaning each others' houses, laundry, routine of cooking, yardwork, etc.... etc etc. And in a true Christian-committed relationship that YOU'RE describing, where both parties are wanting to wait until marriage, SF obviously can't be met (or tested) until after marriage. All these EN's can be TALKED about - SHOULD be talked about, so that each person can determine a comfort level of beliefs and compatibility, but they can be developed and fine-tuned after marriage.

Right?

If two people make a commitment to wait to have sexual relations until after marriage, that can work. There is no need for the emotional need to be met, because there is a mutual agreement to wait and have it fulfilled later.

However, in lordslady's case, they have already become one flesh. The two became one through sexual intercourse. There should be no shame or guilt felt from that wonderful bonding they have experienced. I'm guessing neither of them were virgins, so what was really lost prior to not waiting to be married? The answer is nothing was lost.

I have seen many a couple try to abstain once sex has occured and that just proves to be disasterous in their relationship. Not only for the man (which sexual fulfillment may be a top 3 EN for him), but also for the woman. Paul specifically told people who were married to not deprive each other except by MUTUAL CONSENT and for a time so that they could devote themselves to prayer, then they were to come together again. Was this a command? Certainly not, but they were words of wisdom. Even to people who are not married, yet are in a committed relationship.

lordslady, do you plan on marrying this man? Does this man want to marry you? Do you see this as a forever relationship? If the answer to these three questions are yes, I would really shed your guilt and focus on the love that you feel for this man. Your guilt does NOT come from the Holy Spirit.

I've been home for about 1.5 hours...thinking. BF and I quickly touched on the issue yesterday, but family was everywhere and didn't get a chance to really address until today.

Needless to say, things came as a total shock to him--he didn't see it coming at all. He doesn't know how to react. He's angry, but doing a good job hiding it. He says he understands my dilemma as he struggled with it with his now-ex, when they were dating before they married. He said they had 2 years of roller-coaster emotions and beating themselves up. He's obviously done some revising of his beliefs now, because he admits to being slightly more liberal, as in, if two people are in a serious relationship, he doesn't see it as the sin I do. He sees pre-marital sex as sin if it's just casual sex for the heck of it, or with a prostitute, etc.

The kicker is that we obviously can't make ourselves permanent thing for 2 years or so. It's been discussed before and came up again. He said, "LL, I thought we'd agreed that though it's hard on the odometer and the pocketbook, we were going to try and make this thing work this way for the next couple years." By this, on one hand it confirms that he does care for me and did have long-term hopes. On the other hand, even I admit that it would be very difficult to be in a relationship with someone for 2 years and have no physical intimacy, and especially when the cat was already let out of the bag.

I was very emotional tonight, obviously hoping he'd say "Okay, LL, let's give it a try." But he didn't. He's stunned, and when he gets that way, he gets sarcastic and tries to be funny, but it's just to cover his nervousness and his frustration.

Instead, what I know is that he resisted any closeness with me this weekend because of the issue that we were discussing, he admitted to being in total shock and getting virtually no sleep last night, and says that there will be no "alone time" for us until we get this resolved. And by that, I think he means either we give in, or no him/me time, period. And in my opinion, it's awfully hard to grow a relationship if there is no cuddling or kissing or anything, and no time by ourselves to get to know each other, or visit, or anything.

And he admitted there have been a few other times during the 4 months that he's seen red flags and wondered if he was on the right path with me, but has hung in there and wanted to give things the benefit of the doubt (i.e, the very messed-up start--that should have sent anyone running, the issues with my daughter--another HUGE piece of baggage for someone to deal with).

I hurt so bad right now. Yes, there's always the possibility that somehow this can work. I don't see it, and I don't think he's seeing it either. Both people would pretty much have to be in complete agreement and have the stubbornness of mules to make this a sexless but successful relationship for the next 2 years, once the sex has already been happening. And we're not in complete agreement.

To make it worse, not only do I have very strong feelings for this guy, but his family has just taking me in like they've known me forever. His dad really likes me..BF has commented on it several times. His mom and I visit like friends. His pre-teen son stick to me like glue. And tonight, when his 20-yr-old daughter was leaving to go back to her place, she gave him a hug and when I told her good-bye, she turned and gave me one, too.

I feel so much a part of them...and because I screwed things up and let it go on (and like he said, why didn't I have this conversation in August...why now??), we're both going to end up probably being huge losers.

And bleak Iowa winters and the holiday season are the worst time to face something like this. It feels almost like deja-vu. November 2 years ago was when my ex and I blew up.

LL