(doubled)

LL, what troubles me most about your position is that you still seem to be seeing God's "rules" primarily as opportunities for Him to find reason to slap you down instead of as His wisdom for life.

To me, your situation well illustrates some of the reasons for why sexual abstention prior to marriage is wise. If your relationship with this man was developing as it should, then it would be helping you in your relationship with God instead of hindering it.

I don't believe that the hindrance is caused just by your trying to avoid God due to feelings of guilt. More than that, I suspect that your relationship with this man has come to overshadow your relationship with God. You have gotten so caught up with the pleasure of getting your emotional needs met that you have lost sight of the big picture. And you have become so addicted to this pleasure that the dreadful prospect of losing it has come to seem more important than the matter of discovering whether this relationship is really what's best for you.

In a truly Christian relationship, you and your boyfriend would both be seeking God's will for yourselves and for each other, and you would be encouraging each other's walk with God. Furthermore, although meeting one another's emotional needs is important in a marriage (or prospective marriage) relationship, in my view that is not the purpose of the relationship. Rather, the relationship should be put into God's service. That's not likely to happen if you're just using the relationship to feed off each other.

LL, I'm curious: has your boyfriend ever seemed willing to take on the role of spiritual leader in your relationship, or has he shown more of a tendency to just accommodate your own spiritual inclinations? Does this matter to you? If not, should it?

It seems to me that this is a good time for some soul-searching about your relationship - on both your parts, I hope. Whether that means "breaking up," or whether that means finding a more God-honoring direction for your relationship, or whether that means taking God less seriously and going back to your previous pattern - only you can decide.

GNP,

It is really good to see you back around here on my posts. I know I really frustrate people, especially you and LH, I think. But you two shoot very straight, and truly that's what I need.

You are correct--if I were in a correct relationship with my BF, I wouldn't be running from God. We'd both be moving closer to him, together. That's what I truly desire. It's what I thought I was going to find when we first started seeing each other. And yes, at that time we did discuss, among other things, the man and his role as spiritual leader. Have we prayed together? No. Have we read the bible together? No. Yes, we have gone to church together a number of times, but that's it. Oh, and we were starting to read "Purpose Driven Life" together before this all blew up, but we kept letting other things get in the way of our reading.

I truly want to seek God's will for myself, and I want to encourage my partner's walk as well. I put that in one of today's emails.

I have bad feelings about this relationship simply based on the fact that he's not returning my calls this evening, nor has he responded to any of my emails since he sent his before noon today. Yes, as was mention earlier, he is one to think and to analyze. But to not call is very unlike him. I'm guessing he's talked to his brother, who still has bad memories of BF's ex, and his brother has said "run fast and hard before it's too late. Don't do what you did with your prior GF and drag it on forever!" (His brother isn't Christian and is pretty open about that.)

I could be totally wrong. But I just have this sick, weird feeling.

I'd be lying if thoughts of calling him and saying "I changed my mind--I give in" hadn't crossed my mind. But I'm holding out. And you nailed it. Getting my emotional needs met for the first time in many, many years and having it done by a guy I find intelligent, witty, sexy, caring, funny, someone with older kids like mine, someone with a warm friendly family, and someone who really appreciates the effect of touch (non-sexual, even)--yes, it's been very easy to let him become all important. So I think it's a combination of shame and fear and wrong priorities.

I just want the pain to go away, and there is no quick fix. This, coupled with very serious issues with my daughter (as in, she's going to bolt and there's not a lot I can do because I don't know when, or exactly where, or truly with whom), has taking a huget toll on me the last few days.

LL

Why not listen to what he told you he wants to do, and give him the time and space to do it?



AGG

Wow.

What a shame that King David failed to recognize this "truth." Instead of Psalm 51, we might have gotten a story about Nathan being executed as a messenger of the devil.

Wow again. It doesn't matter whether we sin or not, because we are free, hmm? Paul took that argument one step further in Romans 6, and turned it on its head.

Even if we may be free of the punishments, that doesn't mean we are free of the consequences.

I've never been happy about this either, but come to think of it, that's not so disturbing as people who mindfully twist Scripture and then call it Biblical truth.

Wow. Just...wow.

How does anyone who hasn't even bothered to make a study of the original languages come to hold up his own authority over "man-made doctrine, teachings and principles" which have been built up over centuries by much more careful and thorough scholars? While there are vast areas of disagreement among the scholars, a fair number of those scholars can at least do a fairly credible job of backing up their positions.

LL, I've got my own crew of friends and advisors who threaten to beat me up for my own slowness in certain areas of my life. Recognizing a problem doesn't always make it simple or easy to deal with, and long-term conditioning is really tough to break. Believe me, I understand all this.

Getting hit from multiple angles can't help either.

Sorry for thread-jacking again, but . . .

GDP,

I have a Dakes Annotated Bible with Greek, Aramaic and Hebrew translations/references.

The greek word "porneia" is greatly mistranslated in english. It is directly translated as whoredom or fornication, but does not necessarily mean both as many people assume. I believe the many times "porneia" was used by Jesus (in the Gospels) and Paul it was in reference to whoredom as in being promiscuous (a ****** or prostitute).

It is used when Jesus tells us that we are not to divorce except for "porneia". So, english translaters say, gee that must mean adultry or marital unfaithfulness. Let's add another definition to it. <--insert sarcasm

When Jesus was speaking about divorce, he was basically saying "I don't condone divorce unless your spouse is flat out living in sexually sinful abomination as if she was a prostitute."

What are the consequences of sin? Death. And we all will die at some time, so there is your "consequence". Either Christ died on the cross to make us free from sin or he didn't. If you believe he did, then live as such. If you are living according to your sinful nature, then repent and move on. Don't stay bogged down with guilt (which comes from the Devil). I do not believe that pre-marital sex in a loving relationship is sin. You are free to believe what you like.

Everything is permissible, but everything is not beneficial. Everything is permissible, but I will not be mastered by anything. I am in no way condoning promiscuity. Are there dangers to pre-marital sex? You betcha, especially for teenagers. STDs, unwanted pregnancy, getting your heart broke horribly when the relationship ends, because the two had become one flesh without the commitment of marriage. However, that does not make it sin, nor do I believe that it is. You only do, because you believe people who mistranslated the words from the past. The KJV and NKJV of the bibles should be burned. If you wonder why I say this, read my previous posts in this thread about how sadly they have been mistranslated.

LL,
I am done thread-jacking, I do wish you the best. I am moving on from this thread.

Please, folks, no applause. Just a moment of silence in thanks... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Well guys/gals,

He did call...finally after 11pm. He had been at his parents' watching the game. However, he had gotten all my emails an my phone messages and chose to wait until now.

We talked almost an hour. We don't see eye to eye. He admits to having strong feelings for me, and for this to be really difficult. He isn't ready to get married yet, or in a year for that matter--product of his last relationship. (Though when we were talking about the distance aspect of it, he did admit that you can make anything work if you want to.)

I truly do think he is a Christian, but we don't see eye to eye on the sex before marriage thing. Yes, he says it bothers him to a degree, and yes he said rather sarcastically (meaning he's frustrated to the extreme) that he's asked God what he's supposed to do now.

But his issue is where do you draw the line. If we start kissing or cuddling, while I may be able to handle that well as a woman, a guy's mind tends to run from there and he's going to end up very frustrated. How far do you take it. Or do you do the "courting" thing where you don't have any physical touch or any alone time at all? While that may work for teenagers just getting into relationships, it's very difficult for two divorcees who have been in long-term marriages to make that work.

He argues--where do you draw the line on "deliberately sinning"...what about people who smoke, or eat to excess (they're harming the body - God's temple).

He also was honest about something that hurt very much to hear, and he admitted before he even said it that it is weird and is very wrong, but none-the-less did happen:

He said coming into the relationship with me, and knowing that I'd been forced to admit that I had given myself up in a casual situation with the person before him, he said he had this psychological thing going on that said, "If she'll do casual sex with some guy, then in an actual relationship with me, I better be able to get her to give in, too". And then he said, sort of with a sarcastic laugh (again, he's defensive, I've got that pegged now): "LL, don't ever do that again..."

I took that to mean he was done with me, used me, got defensive and asked if he was just with me because I was a convenient relationship. Wrong thing to ask, and wrong way/time to ask it. He's put up with a LOT in our 4.5 months, and has worked through one chaotic situation after another with me. I have obviously not been a convenient relationship. I've been a lot of work, and he's worked his rear off for me.

So whatever the start to things, I really do believe he has serious feelings. But he has said many times, he has had instability pretty much his entire 5 years of being divorced for one reason or another. He wants peace, and he thought he finally had that for the most part with me. But now he realizes that I didn't have peace and I had to bring it to his attention because of how I felt.

And I do understand his concerns in staying in it. What do we do? Do we kiss? Do we do more? And then if we find ourselves down what he feels is the inevitable path to making love, then as he says, "I will end up with a crying woman on my hands."

My gut feeling is that he's very angry, very hurt, very confused. On one hand he doesn't want to give me up--it will be ugly to unwind, both for us and explaining it to his kids and parents. On the other hand, he as a red-blood american male who is used to being in a physical relationship sees this celibacy thing as an impossible situation, and distance is a big part of it. If we lived 2 blocks apart, he thinks it might be possible, but the dynamics of our relationship would make it very difficult.

So finally he cut me off, saying he needed a productive day tomorrow. Through much nervous chuckling (he is trying hard to diffuse his anger), he did agree that he would probably call or email tomorrow. We didn't say more than that.

Guys, it's just not looking good. And I don't know what to do.

LL

I agree, it looks pretty grim. I get the feeling that he is not just hurt and confused, but also feels rejected. I guess I would feel that way too if I were in his shoes.

Basically, you built a relationship that became intimate, and continued so for the past few months - and then you pulled the rug from under him and said you want to close up shop. Now, I totally understand that you have your reasons, so don't consider what I say to be dismissive or critical. But, regardless, from his perspective, you are changing the rules of the game. It's not like you had sex once as an "oops" and now want it to stop - you have been having it for months, so it became (to him, at least) status quo. It's pretty hard to put that genie back in the bottle.

Also, given what you said about his insecurities and hurts over the past 5 years, he might well be very skeptical of your motives or reasons, and may be viewing this sudden change as a bellweather of some other issues. Certainly, for most of us BS's, disappearance of sex in a relationship is as painfully familiar as the "I love you but am not in love with you" speech. I KNOW that this is not the case here, but my suspicion is that his gut is ringing the alarm bell for him. It would for me.

As far as what to do, I still say you can't go wrong with a break, one not punctuated by tears or frantic interactions. It would give you both time to think. Heck, LL, if "no sex" is absolutely positively truly your rule (and I emphasize YOUR, as opposed to any other poster or anyone else), then you should stick to it, as violating your own beliefs will leave you feeling about an inch tall. And if your BF cannot kiss without it leading to sex, then you have your answer. But there is also the possibility that after some cooling off, some creative solution might be found, who knows.

In any case, it is always best to avoid rash judgements or decisions, especially those made on the heels of crying and sleepless nights.

AGG

Wow, Jaye...
I'm sorry you can't put up with other's viewpoints! I think you saying that to MoG was mean! If we are, indeed Christians, how can we talk to one another like that? I'm disappointed in how this thread came out.
Whatever our convictions, if you feel them wrong, why wouldn't you be a disciple of Christ and try to re-educate (if you felt his beliefs were wrong) with love, patience, and grace, like Christ...
MoG, if you happen to look here...I have some of your same beliefs, especially that we aren't here to struggle with guilt and shame. I do believe that is man-made, and not of Christ. Not that I don't have my own guilt and shame, mind you!

Finally, LL.
I'm sorry things are winding up like they are. I'm sorry you are so upset that you can't even eat! I'm sure there are many well wishers that will tell you, "Well, if it wasn't meant to be...". And I'm one of them.
What I would do if I were you...WRITE down how you are feeling, what got you here, and who you want to be and what you want to take away from this situation and READ it if you feel this way again-like you want to have pre-marital sex, because I just don't want to you see YOU put yourself through this again. It is sad, but others are right, if your beliefs and your convictions can't be respected by the one you love and is closest to you, you have no business being in that relationship. You will find him...and it will be more than you've ever dreamed!
Little consolation right now, but please consider the recommendation of journaling-it's done much for me!
My best to you...PLEASE take care of yourself!

I was really hoping I was misreading BF's phone call and that guys might be saying that he's just needing time. Sounds like I read it properly.

As of this morning, I've lost 5 pounds since Saturday afternoon. I haven't eaten a thing since yesterday noon, and that was just minestrone soup. Coffee is about all I can get down myself. This is tearing me up on so many levels. My feelings about my Christianity; my feelings about losing a man I love; and my realization that things were just perfect and it was ME who has caused this whole chain of events.

I sent him another email today. You will not be happy with it because desparation has set in, despite all of you are telling me. Why is it that I know in my mind that this won't kill me, but it feels like it will. It's sort of the double issue==losing him, and having to start the process all over again to find someone who will accept my build, my past, my daughter, and my desire to not have sex outside marriage. Feeling overwhelmed!

Here's the email...feel free to 2x12. I think I'm losing my mind:

First, thank you so much for calling. I needed to hear your voice. Even though the subject matter left me with a painful "writing on the wall" feeling, I am praying hard that while we are at a definite low point, that the damage is not irreparable. I know what I threw out there over the weekend can't just be taken back and ignored. But relationships (married or not) hit critical times where we have to decide if we want to let this be something that refocuses us, or if we just want to give up because it's too much effort to try and work through.First, I am so sorry for coming across as accusatory on a few issues yesterday. As I've said all along, you have been nothing but wonderful. I've had no reason to believe your motives weren't on the up-and-up. There are just times when little things come up and I have thoughts and I just need your assurance that I'm seeing them correctly. And usually they come out in email as accusing you.

I imagine that in addition to being hurt and confused and frustrated, you may also be feeling rejected--the very last thing a man needs to feel in a relationship. I know these are just words, but seriously, the last thing I'm doing is rejecting you. If I had my way, I'd be in your presence on a daily basis. In fact, right this second I so wish I could turn back the clock and we could be in your car, with you singing along to a Tim McGraw song to me, or sitting on your couch with me tucked under your arm, feeling close and loved and safe.

Based on some of the subject matter of the phone conversation, I do think I'm ahead of you where it comes to the seriousness of my feelings for you. That's my fault; not yours. I fell hard and fast, probably because you are awesome in so many ways. Honestly, if you were someone who didn't have a "two year clause", and you had decided to ask me to marry you at this point (even without the sex issue coming up), laugh if you want, but I'd have said "yes". I am that certain that you have what I'm looking for that I'd have been willing to work through the issues that may have come up. There are always issues. No amount of time really guarantees that you know a person. There are a lot of chances to be taken in the game of love, and if one doesn't stick their neck out and take them, well, it may prevent another failed marriage...but a person also stands to never have the fulfilling lifelong relationship they desire either.

So I've prayed and prayed and pretty much begged God for a solution that doesn't involve you and I breaking up. I've prayed that he'd calm me and strengthen me and help me make right decisions. I've prayed for him to work in your heart, to give you guidance and strength on the decisions you need to make.

And I've even gone so far as to rethink my stance slightly, and say "What if we made a concerted effort to tone it down from what it is now which is pretty much each time we're together (it has taken a very important spot in our relationship which furthers my thoughts that it has become our Master). Maybe take it back a notch, make an effort to do other things when we're together. What if we sort of started fresh, worked a little harder on the "dating" (watching rented movies, reading our book, hanging out with your family, I wouldn't mind watching you play poker, taking walks or stuff if it wasn't freezing out, finding games or stuff we could play, when you're over at my place you could help me with some of the domestic stuff we discussed before (door issues, yard issues, other stuff). And as uncomfortable as this may feel at first for both of us, what if we started spending a little time in prayer together asking God to give us both guidance and direction and to show us what we need to do to have a successful relationship. If we're both Christians, and I believe we are, putting the Lord in the center should be what both of our goals are in a sense. I've heard believers talk about lots of regrets of things they should have done differently. I've never heard a one say they regretted spending the time they spent with the Lord. In fact there are studies that aren't even biblically based that have good evidence to support the notion that relationships that have a spiritual basis are much more successful than those that don't.

Maybe that would prove nothing. Maybe cold turkey or breaking up is the only correct solution. Maybe too much damage has been done already. But maybe if we were trying, and asking for God's help, and seriously putting our trust in Him, He would help us find ways over time to substitute acceptable activities for things that aren't acceptable, and maybe we'd be surprised at how fast the time passed where we could be at a point where we could have it all -- the love, the commitment, the trust, the hopes and dreams for a future, and the wonderful physical relationship blessed by God.

Now I will throw one more thing in here. I am well aware of your 2 year statement, and know that the final decision is yours. But somehow I wish there was a way for you to be able to let go of the pain and the fear and everything that came from your relationship with Michelle and realize that not everyone is like her. I would not expect you to move anywhere until Tarah has graduated or has at least resolved her school/living situation issues. I also don't expect you to get involved in dealing with my Kait issues. But like I said, if two people are serious about each other, there are ways around that. It's just that I don't see that as your sticking point about committing to someone earlier than 2 years as much as I see the pain from what Michelle caused you being the reason you are so hesitant. Yes, I have flaws--no person or relationship is perfect. You actually know me pretty well already because one of my flaws is my darned openness--so you know everything on my mind. But I'm not Michelle. I want to please you, not screw you over. We just have to decide if the positives of pushing forward with "US" outweigh our negatives, and if that's a better option than giving up on each other and starting the whole dating thing again with other people.

You know my feelings on this--I've run them into the ground. I think in a lot of ways we have a rather ideal setup, if we can just stumble our way somehow through the next couple years until our kids are grown.



LL

I'm no expert, and I can't quote scriptures, but I believe your faith is very out of balance when are so hung up on this one issue, and (obsessed with?) this guy, or his opinions/decision, that you are physically sick, and emotionally out of control (phone calls, e-mails, panicking) like this. Emotionally out of control and physically sick? Instead of placing your fears and anxiety in God's hands? Instead of letting God work on your heart, and on BF's heart a little bit? Where is your faith? If you are so hung up on this one issue (sex), because of God, and because of your fear of hurting God, how is your lack of faith, to the point of hurting yourself a GOOD THING in your walk with God?

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> and :concerned:

Oh darn, I wish you had stopped after the second paragraph, that would have been a nice e-mail. But what's done is done.

I wonder what were the "accusatory" words that you are apologizing for? I kept following this thread and wondering if there is something else that you said to him that hurt him - is this the case?

And now to go out on the limb, but I sense some other issues at play here. Not that I know what they are, but I sense a little more haste to break up (from both sides) than I would expect to see in an otherwise perfect relationship, and that tells my bullcrap meter that there was already some resentment or frustration built up. I hate being out on the limb, but that is where I am. Is there a chance that there was already some distancing taking place, and this became the final straw? Thoughts?

AGG

Ouch! Faith, you are completely correct. And that's part of why I'm so angry at myself. Where IS my faith? Why can't I just trust God, and if I've gotten myself into something bad, suffer the consequences and move forward?

I feel so bad because I really brought this on in a two-fold fashion: First, I allowed us to go where we went and for three months and then it was ME who dropped the bomb. So I created my own crisis.

Second, I'm making an *ss out of myself. Why? Because so many things were so good with BF that I thought this was perhaps "the one". And now how to unwind myself from him, and from his family who I really care about, and all this during the holidays which are the most difficult time of the year for me.

And I'm sure my daughter's antics aren't helping my brain, and I have no help there and no idea where to turn. It's hard to stop someone from leaving if you don't exactly know with who they are going, when they are going, or exactly where they are going.

I'm scared. I want someone to hold me and tell me it's going to be okay. And there's no one there.

LL

AGG,

No, no distancing up to that point. In fact, growing closer and closer. He went way out on a limb on our weekend in Nebraska a couple weekends ago, make me go make myself scarce for a few minutes while he "surprised" me, then let me come back in to find chocolates on my pillow and a bunch of red rose petals in our bed. It was very thoughtful and romantic. He has worked very hard to do stuff like this. And he has busted his butt to follow through on every call, every email, every visit he promises. He has been very, very attentive and caring. And then I blew it up. And yes, he's very angry now.

And as for the accusatory statements, there were a couple in yesterday's email where I questioned his motives and his feelings toward me, based on how he responded to this issue.

And with paragraphs #3 and beyond of this latest email, I assume that rather than trying to show him just how willing I am to try and help us rebuild what I feel was something very special, I have just pushed him over the edge with my clinginess?

LL

(((((((((((LordsLady)))))))))))))

((((((((((((((((LL))))))))))))))))))

((((((((((((((((((((LL)))))))))))))))))))

No 2x12's today.

OK, one more of these (((((LL))))

Lordslady - I agree with Faith1 - why are you so hung up on this issue... You say you don't want to do "it" but you end up - most people would say good for you ... you have found a guy that you care about you are happy and you are having sex-- you are two consenting adults - Who says that it is wrong.... Is it really and truly your belief - or do you just think that it should be ... Because if it was truly your belief that - I dont' think you would be having sex or even thinking about it... You are 40 years old - you are entitled to be happy... Stop thinking about everything so much - you are making yourself sick - and sick over what - the fact that you had sex... that you really care about someone - Take it one day at a time.... Honestly I think - put yourself in his position - you are dating a guy you are having sex - and everything is going great - and then bam the next thing you know he doesnt' want to have sex anymore and really how do you think you would feel??? I am not saying that your religious beliefs are not important and I am not trying to offend you - I just dont' think that you really want to follow all that you think you should believe.....

Yes, there IS someone there... God is there... you just need to turn to Him and let HIM hold and comfort you!
You will feel so much better if you just have a "come to Jesus meeting with God!"
He will hold you...He will tell you, it's ALL going to be okay, YOU are going to be okay...

Again... where's your faith?