So are you saying people can't change...

I don't believe that...

Don't you see it everyday in your work, Lemon..after a tragedy?

You know, Jean, I was thinking that you might WANT A DIVORCE..

That's your choice and I understand...

LemonL

Of course, I know that Jean's H is not my H....

I'm not sure what you know about how AWFUL my H was but he did really, really, awful and cruel things to me when he was a WH....

He is a changed man today..better than he was prior to the A..really...

However, this has taken really loads of hard work by the both of us during Recovery...

So, Jean, if you cannot handle Recovery, you've got a point..

I just don't understand though folks not doing PLAN B prior to D...

That's just my opinion on this...

I say, "What could it hurt? ESPECIALLY if there are children..D is awful for children...IMO...

Mimi, I do appreciate anyone who responds to my posts. I always try to think heavily on what people say to me because there is so much experience here.

I do think I can recover my butt off. I am not scared of introspection, character flaws, communication, mental dissections, autopsies and full reports. That is part of my problem, I want to gut it, dissect it, get the report and fix it. My H is a conflict avoider whose default position is head under a rock. His mantra after D-day was "back off, back off". Now, I understand that he was still in the A, I know so much more now than I did then, I know I could pull my weight and a good part of his weight in the beginning of recovery.

As far as a plan B, yes, I can write a letter and our current contact would go from 2 text messages a week or quick one line phone calls pertaining to kid swap times, to none. I have thought about giving him a plan B letter, but I can just imagine his reaction. We have virtually NC now, and once the temporary parenting plan goes into effect, I see no reason why we would communicate at all.

This is all happened amazingly fast. I guess part of my giving up is based on the previous separation. We were apart for two years, got along great, reconciled and less than year later, he was in bed with someone new.

We have had one great year out of 15, I don't understand why the one great year turned out to be our last-that does make me confused.

I try to think of him as my spiritually sick H that I don't want to abandon, but honestly, he is just an immature, narcissitic a$$ who has never, never made me feel cherished and treasured.

Even the children's counselor says they might not need to spend as much time with him, until he gets his head out of his a$$ (and that is based on what the kids are experiencing).

I am scared to make a decision, I am looking for validation, I am wishy washy and wanting some grown up to make the call for me.

Oh Mimi:

I am not saying that at all....of course people can change.....BUT, the issue is WILL THEY? DO THEY WANT TO? IS their any evidence that they themselves WANT TO? "Waiting" on a miracle is great for novels and movies, but in "reality", it is not always possible or practical.

I don't believe in absolutes....but just in probablities....I think anyone can change if they want it enough....Jean's husband has not shown the impetus to want to do any change...and according to her, "changing" would be likely undoing 15 years of marital neglect in many other ways. In her words, she has had 14 out of 15 miserable years in her marriage.

That is probability to me. This is as far as I can tell, NOT her Cheating Husbands first (and not likely last) affair.

I didn't mean to come down on you with your FWH reference....I didn't mean it like that at all. I have to be honest, I don't know all of the sordid details of your story, but I am sure they were extremely painful for you and I have seen referenes where you have mentioned that you didn't even want to get into the horrible things your FWH has done. I am happy that your WH has done the things he needed to do to help recover your marriage.

That being said, it is my opinion that people should NEVER, EVER threaten or get a divorce unless they want one.

I happen to believe that Jean should DO what is in the best interest of getting her children financial support. I am not a lawyer and honestly do not know the legal wranglings with situations like these......MY advice would be to do WHATEVER it takes to get a enforceable child support order, if that means Divorce proceedings.....so be it. I agree that a Plan B would be a much better solution, and I haven't seen a reason given why this is not the next step.

I think sometimes (maybe even rarely), people need to have their own "lightbulb" moment...and realize that this Wayward Spouse behavior is not an "abberation" after all.

I think Jean was very prophetic when she said she didn't "know" if she had the "balls" to go through the rigors and struggles of a recovery....that sometimes is the most painful truth to this all.

For me, realizing that I lost my "love" for my wife and DIDN'T want to try and recapture it was almost as painful as the D-Day itself....I am not saying that this is Jean's situation by the way....What I see in her situation is a man (WH) who doesn't give a flying F*&^ about her or her daughters, and for the most part of his marriage has been a selfish and verbally abusive man, and Jean is potentially realizng that this "man" she wants back as her Husband.....may not be "worth" the trouble after all....yet, in her dysfunctional learned behavior, she "hopes" that threatning him with a divorce will "wake him up" or turn on the "light"......to me, that seems about as frutiful as ME becoming a contributing editor to the offical "principles" section of this site.

Am I a pessimist because this is what I see when others see hope for recovery....? Maybe...but then again, that is just me.

I am utterly convinced that the message board would not be a better place if I just posted "sunshiner" thoughts.

Jean, sorry to have gone off topic......again....are you doing everything within your power to protect and get financial support for your daughters from this despicable man who is legally your husband? That is truly my concern for you.....NOT your marriage....and for that, I make no apologies.

Lem

Lemon,

I always like your posts, not alot of moon, spoon and June in there and sometimes that is very helpful.

Kdsheartbreak siggy line says something like "I have nothing to lose and everything to gain by trying to save my marriage". When I read that, I have to think of what I have to gain, and it isn't looking to pretty.

I have had to ask myself, am I afraid of losing my H, or just being the loser?

Even at our best, he doesn't know me or like me. We clearly established that during the past year.

His new TV is worth more than the car I tote our children around in.

It's odd, in real life, I am been trying to convince people for months that my M was not hopeless. Now, I am trying to convince myself that it is <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

But Jean..

You yourself said that you wanted to ask him one last time..that's how this started...

How come you said that you wanted a lightbulb moment?

So if there was a lightbulb moment, you wouldn't want a divorce?

A miracle..rather than hard work?

Jean -

Almost every lawyer I call says the same thing about LS v D here in my state. I got so frustrated that I stopped calling for the time being(plus I need to scrape together $$ for a LS anyway). I am going to keep searching until I find a lawyer that is supportive of what I want to do. AND, one lawyer told me that WH would eventually have to pay his fees since I had to file in order to get $$ out of him. Granted, WH is paying bills right now -

I know that is not really your question....

No, I wouldn't call WH and tell him or give him another chance to tell you he doesn't want the M. I am betting he is still in contact with OW. He is still an alien. He is not going to tell you what he wants to hear as long as he is under the spell of that home-wrecking OW.

Kim

Mimi, I understand your questions, I ask myself the same. I'll just keep thinking and praying, the papers aren't ready yet anyway. I don't have to do anything today.

Jean:

These are great questions posed to you by Mimi...you have to be able to answer them for YOURSELF.....Noone is saying you need the answers to this TODAY.....BUT please realize that PREMATURE DIVORCE will likely alter the course and choice that you inevitably will want.

Fpr the record, I am not adovcating a Divorce or staving off one, but just asking you to see this from all angles...and be sure you are making a decision based on WHAT YOU WANT (divorce and an official end to this marriage with hope for a new fulfilling relationship in the future) .......NOT WHAT YOU DON'T WANT (divorce based on some faulty notion of winning and losing).....

Rememeber, when you divorce, their are no clear winners...just degrees of "loss".

Lem <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Thanks Lem, both of you have given me alot to think about.

KIm:

I respectfully disagree with you that this situation continues as a result of a "home-wrecking OW's" spell. I think this goes much deeper than all of this. This isn't the 1st affair, this isn't an abberation......14 of 15 years have been the norm, the one year was the abberation.

I think a "home wrecking OW" is only the symptom of a much deeper evil.......you get rid of this "home wrecker", there will be others in the waiting.... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Jean, this is just my opinion based on what I have read here...I could be wrong, and you will surely never hurt my feelings if you disagree.

Lem <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Your H is not facing the consequences of his actions because you are protecting him from them. If you file for LS, you are sending the message that you are willing to reconcile and you are expecting him to live up to the responsibilities he has taken on by fathering two children. At least in my state, the only reason to file for D as opposed to file for LS is so that you are free to marry.

If he is so much in the fog that he is living in a motel and claims to be in a cooling off period, there may be a long time before the fog clears. Fog doesn't clear suddenly.

Cherishing

This tidbit of news is what concerns me Jean. The "cooling
off period?" The cooling off period IMO means NC w/ OW for a time initiated by OWH???? After your exposure...they don't want to be followed or seen together....if you know what I mean.

Did you mention OW and the immigration stuff in your divorce filings? I hope you did.

The divorce may be what he is waiting for, but he doesn't want you being able to "prove" anything. So he's in hiding and laying low for now.

You just protect yourself and your children... whatever it takes.

Lady

Ladysheep,
I have very little doubt that the "cooling off period" is prompted by OWHs. WH told the girls he was sad because he had to "promise OW and 'someone else' that he would stay away from OW for 3 months". Three months is the waiting period for TN with kids, and the 'someone else' has to be OWH's.

So he is probably going to try to deny the adultery, I did ask him point blank if that is why he is doing it, which of course he denied. Yes, the lawyer knows about the immigrations issue and says she has an identical case to it right now in addition to mine.

I don't know how hard it will be to prove adultery if it comes to that. I could find at least a dozen people that know that WH left us for OW based on what WH has told them. I also have the note he left me, saying "OW was the trigger, but not the cause".

Of course, I have no DNA proving sex, but if I ask his boss and coworkers and OWH's to come to court, I imagine that they will help WH admit it before it gets to that point.

Honestly, that is one reason that I did want him to file, just to see if he would admit the adultery, make it easier on me.

He has also showed the girls her picture and said that was his girlfriend. I don't think he could really deny it.

On the PA, he can deny that and I can't prove it, but the time she has spent in his hotel and he at her apt should be plenty of doubt. Maybe their no PA, maybe she is saving herself for marriage- oh wait- she is already married!

Jean, part of my story is on Kim's Plan B Thread.


After knowing and dating my EXH for 5 months, I fell deeply "in love" with him. We met at a store he was working at here in town. Very handsome, charming one he was. 5 months into our R, he came to me and said if we didn't marry he would be shipped back to India. He showed me all of his papers including a D document from EXW, working papers, etc. I married him quickly, even with doubts in my heart, scared to lose him. Soon after marryiing, he wanted to work in NYC, which is far from here...WITHOUT us. Hmmmm....well, by this time I was starting to figure things out a little. All of a sudden he wants to move by NYC by himself to work with family that he had there, saying he needed the money. He was a taxi driver there.

We were at times visiting Immigration for interviews. Sometimes together, sometimes they would ask me questions alone. When I started to catch on that he possibly could be marrying me for a green card, I talked with Immigration.
I asked them to check his D paper (mainly the stamped part). They said they couldn't because it was a copy they didn't have the original. They asked me if I knew of him having a back account in NYC, I had no idea!! I told them of his visit to India, and how afraid I was. (He didn't know I was telling them this). I believe to this day that his previous D document was probably a frauded document he bought off the streets of NYC... Meaning he really was still married to his W. His brothers W confirmed this to me much later. I went to visit her and her newborn triplets. She told me in confidence that he was still married to his wife in India.

I began D proceedings quickly through legal aide. We were married and divorced in 13 months. It took me 2 years to recover from the devastation.

I live in a small town, and had never known immigration crime existed until I met that man.

And a lot less immigration crime exists now post 911.
Thank God.

Lady

P.S. I want to share this with you as well. In 1998, my ExH took me and my children to NYC to meet and visit with some of his family members there. He took us for a tour of the World Trade Buildings too. When in one of the buildings on the 101th floor, we were looking out the windows, and through the telescopes. For some reason I was not excited or impressed about being there at all in my heart, in fact I felt very sad. Thoughts came to my mind of building laying flat all around, roads filled with the debrie of fallen buildings. 3 years later 911 happened! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Ladysheep,
I just want to say that the brief and matter of fact way in which you described your relationship with your XH reveals a great deal of courage and insight, something many of us BSs need. Sometimes the facts get in the way of our values and commitments.

Cherishing