I just thought of some thing else (I want to be compelte for future reference as well ~ thanks <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />!).....

When I asked him about loving me....He said that he does not really think about it the way I do (another confirmation that we are not meant to be).......that for him only one thing has changed and that is he no longer has the hope that we can work (he did not use the word hope) but anyway....that is the gist of it.......overtime he has essentially accepted that we cannot work....I think he is being very rational...in the sense, that unlike me, he is able to make a decision without letting his emotions get in the way........I cannot do that. I am driven by my love for him and that is what has kept me going and doubtless even after all this ...that is what will still give me some hope (even though I know this situation is near hopeless).

He did say that I am one of the few people that he is able to talk to. That it is really dificult to find people that he feels have something to say. He does not feel like he fits in and rarely is he able to feel comfortable around people and he did say he feels comfortable talking to me. That is why he wants to stay friends. He did say that there just might be something wrong with him that he just is not a person that gets along with others and maybe should be alone. I know he was in no relatioship for close to 8 years when we met. I was not in one for about that time as well (I hope I don't have that happen again ~ I cannot imagine being alone that long again ~ I was in school then so it did not seem that bad though) Anyway, so I do seem to satisfy some need, but I do have to say that he is very demanding when it comes to conversation. I have never met anyone like him in that respect. Noone even comes close. In some sense, he truly expects all conversations to be "deep" and really is not interested in me telling him about my day.....he wants to have conversations about phylosophy and history and all about some deep meaning and understanding....and while I can do that some (even though that does not come even close to what I do for a living) I just could not have every single conversation with him be like that....you know, when you see someone 7 days a week for 4 years...you just cannot keep this up......at least I could not....and I reallize I never will be able to do that....that is a need I just cannot fulfil and it is most important to him.....

Daisy

Daisy,

I hope you have a wonderfull holiday and may you get what you asked for from Christmas father!

Van.

Hey Daisy- Know you won't see this today, but thought I'd
write you back while still "fresh" myself !
Glad you were able to have a good, productive talk and were
able to get a lot of insight on what H is feeling and also
thinking.
Much like my WH, your H seems to have a lot of what I guess
could be called "pre-conceived" notions , such as thinking
things have to be a certain way or aren't "right", or are
not "meant to be" and that you just kind of "float along"
and things "happen", instead of believing things as being
"as you make them", which would be more of my view.

I have discussed this with my IC, in regards to my WH, as
he has indicated some of the same things- he acts as though
things are just going to change, without him taking any
action or doing anything about it instead of him having to
take a course of action, make changes, actively work towards what he wants to happen. (I have described this as
thinking lightning is going to strike and suddenly just fix
everything !!) Funny that my WH can be very controlling as
far as his career is concerned, can be very controlling in
general, but can't seem to control his personal life or
behavior very well at all !

My IC has said that lack of taking action or just letting
things "take their own course" are very common in people
with depression or mental issues, as they just just lack
the "gumption" (for lack of better word) or feel that they
are powerless to take control of certain areas of their life. This really does seem to fit with my WH, for example
his having asked two times for the list of counselors, but
still not having set up an appointment !

I think all the info you got at least gives you much to think on and the ability to more clearly decide how to proceed and what you now want.

My evening and plan didn't go as expected either. I had left
a msg for WH in the afternoon, asking if he'd like to go out
to dinner. Didn't hear back from him until early evening,
but he said he would go, and we made plans of when/where.
Met him, and it started out okay, but then he got a phone
call and immediately "went to the bathroom" ( undoubtedly
to call someone back- likely OW). He was gone 10-15 min
which was very annoying, but when he came back, I didn't
comment at all. His food had come, and he commented in an
annoyed way that he wanted the appetizer to "come out first"
,not along with his entree. I said "it had come out first".
He then commented that he had only been gone about 4-5 min.
I said, it had been more like probably 10 min. None of my
comments were said unkindly or in a sarcastic mode, but he
seemed to really take offense and from there on, he was
grouchy, quiet, negative, and it was not a pleasant time.
I tried to keep things really light, just talked about the
weather, dog, work, and other "small talk", but couldn't
get any response or even conversation out of him at all !
I said "maybe we could go some night to drive around and look at lights some night" (which is one of our holiday
traditions), and also offered to help with his shopping
for his family and daughter, if he liked, and that seemed
to make him aggravated too, although I just meant it as
being helpful and friendly.

I tried really hard- kept trying to think what I could do
or say that might turn things around, but I really felt
I was in a "no win" situation, no matter what I did.
We finished up, and left, with me feeling really bad- felt
like it went poorly just like Sunday, and that it did not accomplish getting things back "on a more positive note", which had been my whole reason for suggesting it.
WH called me after we left- said it was too cold to stand
outside to talk. I said I didn't know what to say- had just
thought Sun didn't go well, wanted to get us back in a more
"positive" note with each other, had tried to just be light
and upbeat, but that I felt I couldn't win, no matter what
I said or did. He said "I was acting as though we were
together", which I thought was a strange thing to say-!!
He's the one who calls everyday, does ask me to do things,
and who could have said "no", if he didn't want to go to
dinner ! I said, "no, obviously I know we're not together,
but that I thought we did still enjoy each other's company
and no reason we couldn't do things sometimes". (didn't
know what else to say..)
WH went on to say he was still "deciding" about things,
nothing had changed, didn't like me "asking things" (tried
hard not too, so if I did , it was minimal). Then said he
had some work to do but would call me later. (He was going
back to his office, and as I drove home, I saw his car was
there).
The more I thought about it for the rest of the evening, I
think something is really going on with him (more the the
usual !) for him to be SO grouchy, moody and difficult.
Both times lately, it has been after he had gotten a phone
call, so I wonder if he and OW are fighting or something ??
Could also be work or something not related, but it sounds
like his job and things are going okay otherwise- as far as
what he says.

He had said he'd call back later, but he had not by the time
I was getting ready for bed. I called his office and got no
answer, so called his cell. He didn't answer, so I figured
he was on the way to OW house for the night, and I left a
msg- just said it was "nice to see him, didn't know why
things seemed so strained this week, felt like I was in a no-win situation, hoped things would get better for him
and goodnight." Was surprised when he called back in a few
minutes. Said he was on the way back to his rented room. Kind of repeated what I'd said in the message, and asked if there was something wrong- he said "no". I also asked why
he was "so grouchy", and he said "he didn't know".
He was much more calm, quiet and pleasant during the short conversation, but I did wonder what he had been doing when
I called, who had been on the phone, if he had just gone
back to his office to use the phone or computer, if he had
hooked up with someone in addition or instead of OW, etc...

Feel "ok" about things today (as much as I can anyway), and
think I'm just going to "back off" for awhile. Seems like
whatever is going on is really affecting his mood, and he
is super-sensitive to everything said, every action, etc.
His acting like that also makes it really hard for me to be pleasant and not LB ! Would be nice if his bad mood will be an incentive for him to get back to the Dr for meds and to finally set up a counselor, but I'm not counting on it !!

I'm not going to call, not going to ask him to do things,
not going to put any pressure on, and just see how it goes
I guess- hard for me to do, but easier to handle and then
I don't try to question and second-guess everything I say
or do either- I have to remind myself that he knows how
I feel, knows what I'd like to have happen, knows what it
would take to make it happen.
It'd be nice if he'd ask me to help with shopping, go see lights, or do something for the holidays, but he seems like
he is "not doing Christmas this year", so will just do my
best to continue with my own decorating, shopping, cards,
cooking, enjoying the specials, and parcipating in the
season !
Hope your trip is good !
Slammed

Slammed,

I have studied your story. I know this has been hard for you and has been quite a journey.

It IS time to change your game plan. What you are doing is not working. Your WS does not respect you. (re-read Dr. Dobson's book and concentrate on what he says about generating respect)

You are being a doormat. He knows and feels this. He knows he can get back with you anytime he wants to. No man respects a woman who allows this.

He is never going to come back to you until you show him some good old fashioned strength and backbone.

Read again what Dobson says about being "tough".

The longer you allow this to go on, the less chance you have to save this relationship. He isn't coming back until you show him that it isn't only his decision anymore but YOURS as well....

Good luck

Movn4ward-
Thanks so much for your post.
I think your comments make great sense.
I do have the Dobson book and will re-read it again.

The months I have spent in IC have helped with my developing
some boundaries and showing more backbone, but I readily
admit it hasn't been easy and I don't always know what to
do to show my confidence, self esteem or strength.

I have sometimes felt very weak and desperate since this
situation has been going on, but I didn't start out that
way- I had my own home, a paid-for car, a good job, traveled
alot, and had my finances in good order when H and I met.
I took care of most everything while we were together- did
the shopping, errands, laundry, housework, budget, took
care of the dog, cooked, worked,etc... so have almost
wondered if I wasn't "needy" enough for WH ?

I do have a strong belief that the good qualities of my H
are still there, somewhere inside WH, but that both the A
and the mental/emotional issues have buried them deep. I
also truly believe that we could have a fresh start, and
make the most of our potential in a really great M, but
know if would take the full effort of BOTH of us, lots
of patience, time, and change. I've tried to express my
belief in this to WH, but not at the expense of what I want
and need from H. Have said I am willing to do the work,
but can't do it alone, can't do it while he is involved w/
OW, and that he has to get into counseling (my boundaries).

I updated on my thread, if you would further comment there.
Thanks !
Slammed

Daisy- hope your trip is fun and a chance to relax, rest,
and feel better both physically and emotionally.

Daisy, haven't heard from you... how are you doing?

thank you all for checking in on me and all....

I had a crazy trip....I traveled via Chicago during the snow storm last Thursday when that plane went of the run way. It was a crazy day. I was not in that plane....we were not alowed to land in Chicago and we finally were able to land there 5 hours later. By that time my other flight was already gone and I ended up being one of the many looking for a hotel at 11pm....found one and just crashed. I finally got to my friends and since then have been running around seeing the sights.

It was an awful time to travel. Being stuck for 5 hours at some nowhere airport as we were rerooted...did not help. I spend the whole time playing the conversation between my H and me in my mind. I am so tired. I felt really sad being in the hotel in Chicago realizing that had things been different I would have been calling him and checking in and he would be concerned about me. As it was I called him anyway (he was not there) but I felt so akward leaving a message as I really don't know what my new role is.

Sadly I just don't see any other way but to move forward and stop all this second guessing his every move. It is driving me insane. But accepting that it is over, makes me sad and really uncertain as to how to communicate with him. I don't know how to go from Wife/lover to a friend...don't really know.....

He drove me to the airport and I thanked him for talking to me. He seemed really uncomfortable (but what do I know)...anyway, he tried to comfort me ....it was all just akward. I did end up talking to him finally 2 days back and he was concerned about my flight and my time (the airline misplaced my bag and I just got it today...ahhh).

He did email me and addressed me in the way he use to when we were close. I wish he would not do that. But my friend said he may not even realize it.

But reading it just hurts ....all the little things are getting to me.

Anyway, I have little access to the net so I'll have to catch up once I get home on Saturday. This trip is passing by so fast.....

Best to you all....
Daisy

I took some time off for the holidays and generally tried not to think of H much, but thought I would update very briefly where my mind is at.

Had a bit of an emotional break down over the break after the last conversation with H. I guess I took it really seriously all that he said and it was quite painful. Not being with him over the break (me in North CA, he in Southern CA - both basically in our respective corners of CA <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />) was hard. I had a big fight with my mom when I got home and I wrote to H about it. He was quite sympathetic to the issues with my family. In his emails the references he made to our R were such as 'we both contributed to the demise of our R', 'we are friends now, you can tell me everything', 'just think of our R as not working out (that simple)'. That is when it hit me that I had no interest to debate it with him any longer. I have spend some time reading some relationship book since then, and for the first time I think I get it what was teh problem. I am seeing it more clearly now then I did before.

I expect I will have these revelation moments every now and then.

Nevertheless, I have opted for moving on. It would be nice if he wanted to work on things, but life goes on and it will not be so bad without him. I was alone for a number of years before him and I honestly don't see that happening after him. I see my life quite positively now.

I realized that posting here every remark and action by H and analyzing his actions and disecting any remark, brief encounter or a simple smile was driving me insane. I don't want to do that any more. I have a very simple and wonderful plan in mind now. Personal Recovery. I am not going to chase him down and wonder about this and that and think about what did he mean when he said this and who is he seeing and what did it mean when he smiled like that....blah...blah.... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

I have hard days. Cried last night. I don't mean to bury my feelings. No. But I figure there is so much going on that discussions about my H should not take over my life. It is enough that I have a hard time to take him off my mind. I try. So, my mission is to think less about him, talk less about him, and write less about him.

I got to get a life! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

I'll be around, just taking it one day at a time, and do my best to think about what I can do to be happy <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />. I am going with "do what gives you happiness" (my friend said that to me in Dec). I realized that thinking about H was not giving me happiness. I was not happy feeling rejected by him and seeing him enjoying life without me. It is time to do things to enjoy my life.

Now I just got to get over this cold! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Thank you all for your support. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Daisy

If there's a phrase I would use to describe you it would be "At Peace". A friend that I've confided in with my sitch early on, saw me on Christmas Eve and said the same thing about me. He felt relieved to see me more "at peace" with myself, and about this whole sitch.
So I'm glad to hear that you're more "at peace" although our approach is slightly different.
My approach is to stick with my 180 along with Plan A emails and also self-improvement. This approach still gives me some ups and downs but much more mellow than before.
Your approach I think is a noble one and focus' on self-preservation, with or w/o him. Good for you.

Hey Stu....

I feel better <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />....I still have the moments when it could all unravel but I keep it together, get through those moments, and make it another day.

I know all about the 180 plan. I have read a lot about it in the last 2 weeks. The book "love must be tough" was helpful although I really wish there was a book that focused on long separations + no affair + no abuse! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />
But 'love must be tough' was the best I could find. The discussion on the balance (respect) is dead on! I have a book that my father gave me (it is in Czech only) and it goes into that so much, makes it so clear, that I feel like he was describing me in my M!

What helped me to let go is reading about the 180 plan. I could not do it earlier (last summer) and I could not do it now, knowing that I was doing it only as a means to get him back. I realized that I truly have to believe it, for my sanity, for myself, to have a fulfilling life, so that I am happy! And if he notices, we'll go from there if possible, and if he does not notice, well then I'll be moving on and healing and someone else will notice in time. So either way I win! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I just could not do the Plan A longer(you must be stronger person then me <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />). I really believe that I was good to my H since September <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />. I did not presure him about coming home, I have been working on me since then, I did not make any demands, I respected his space, I never LBed, I defined my bounderies on several occasions (I later questioned those decisions as every time I did that I felt a distance between us, but now I don't regret it at all.) I don't believe there is any more Plan Aing that I can do. I also bought him a present for Christmas, 2 books he wanted (one is really abscure~written by a history prof that he had in undergrad some years back~~it took over a month to get it) and another with poems he told me he was going to get as soon as he could afford it. I also bought him a bottle of Scotch (rare) when I was in Scotland in Dec. and he loved it (he loves Scotch). I showed him I appreciated him, I said "I love you" in the emails...etc........what more can I do? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

He knows I love him.....if he chooses he can come back and see with me what happenes....no guarantees! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

I've said more than I intended <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />......I am working hard to be in a better place....I was not happy being "blah" <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />!

Daisy <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

I had a good night today. I finally assembled my new stereo system. My hi tech brother got it for me for Christmas and it has been sitting on the floor since then....the cats loved it ~ they love knew places to hang <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />.

It has such a great sound! Who new??? I had a really old radio and could hardly get any stations. I can actually get all these stations I can get in my car. YEY. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I will keep it on so I don't have to deal with the silence.

Do you guys also have issues with the 'silence'? I guess if you have kids that is really not an issue and you would probably trade places with me. But sometimes the silence over here is too much. I try to keep the TV on but I really hate commertials and get tired of running from kitchen to TV just to put on mute!

Have a good night you all! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Daisy

I've gotten used to the silence... My nights are filled with self educating things now, reading a book or, if I can't concentrate, audio books. I feel like I hardly have enough time to get everything I want done...

Most nights I read before going to bed and somehow then the silence does not bother me. But I have a really hard time doing things around the house or simply cooking for myself with all that quite. Sometimes I think it would be best if I moved to a small apartment, away from this big house. But I don't want to deal with the move, selling the house, etc.
And it probably will be really hard finding an apartment that takes cats. Lately I have been thinking of getting a roommate. Don't know though....

Of to work....enjoy. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Daisy

I just spoke to a friend of mine and H's. He and his wife invited me to their house on Friday for sushi. I said yes. Then he told me that the Plan was to go to movies afterwards. These Plans include my H. Then my friend asked me if I wanted to go, if 'we' were ok (he did not know whether we were hanging out, talking or what). Then he said he would ask my H if that was ok. This is so silly. I just said yah, sure.

I have not spoken to H since last thursday, when I called him, he asked me out for coffee, and we got coffee. I told myself I would not call him anymore, since I always call. There is a part of me that does not really want to see him. Yet, I am feeling quite good and the last think I want is to appear that hanging out with him bothers me.

I am feeling quite peaceful today. I just prayed to God last night over and over to help me have peace in my heart and mind.

I pray that that feeling stays around. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Daisy

well, I got another email from my dad. He has been very supportive lately. Not that he has changed his opinions but that I have been more receptive of them <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />. He feels that I should have done a "180" all along. Now that I am letting go, and letting God take over, and not chasing H, he is really suppotive of me. There is a part of me that wonders had I only been able to do a 180 right away (and not cry and mope and be depressed all the time) would my H be back now. However, that thought is very momentary as I did what I did, and I cannot go back and undo anything and I am not about to live in guilt all the time. I made mistakes, I admit it, but lets just move on already <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> (that is my 'take-charge-no-pitty-party' part of my brain talking <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" /><img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />).

So, my dad being supportive is kind of funny. He basically is the only one in my family now who feels that there is a chance that H stops and takes a second look if he sees something he likes (not a blob). I laugh when I think about it.

My dad does not believe in divorce, believes that as long as we loved each other once, there is a chance, and we can have a good marriage. He feels I need to get a life, back off, be happy...etc....the 180 basically. He says that is the only chance I have. How did he get so wise suddenly? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

Well, I am not doing a 180 to get H back. I am getting a life to get ME back and to grow!

I am prity amazed how well I feel since I still got the flue. I have had very little thoughts of H today. I am actually able to do some work for a change.

Oh, dad did say to go to the dinner and the movies and have a good time keeping my conversations with H to a minimum! You got to love it. Seriously, how does he know? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Daisy <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

I called H yesterday. We have been having issues with immigration papers and some paperwork for him arrived yesterday. I called him to let him know it came and I would take care of it (left a message). He called me back less then a minute later (he seems to be doing that lately cause if I don't leave a message he *69s and calls me back). Anyway, he thanked me for taking care of it and we chatted a bit about his classes. He asked me how I was doing, I said fine, been busy just got home and now I am going out. He said "you are doing out?"...he said something more about the paperwork and then I just ended the call saying I had to get going. We talked about 5 minutes at most.

I feel good about the talk. It was very causual (normal). I was going out to dinner. I ended up going to a stake house alone. It was fine. I got a stake <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> (have not had one so long) and it was nice to just be out and not sit at home. I did not feel like cooking last night <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />.

I am going out with friends tomorrow. H was suppose to come with us to the movies after his work. I don't know if he is coming or not. I just want to have a good time.

Feeling good today <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />. I have been having more and more good days. Not focusing on the past has helped.

Daisy <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Hi Daisy,

I am so glad you had a perfect "light", "confident", yet "pleasant" chat with your H. Everytime I have those moments, they make me feel good too. I am glad you are being able not to focus on the past. I have been trying to do the same - the past memories are nice, but we need to leave them where they belong to, b/c what we are dealing with is the present, and our spouses are nothing like those we once knew in the past.

Milk

Milk,
thanks!

the memories belong to the past, like you said. I talked to my dad and he said, there is always a future. Today things may not look great, the past may not look great, but the future is yet to happen, so feel good about it.

Enjoy...I got to run for now...but I'll check out your threat soon....

Daisy

ok, I felt a strange calmness last night. I felt completely ok with where my life is and with starting new without H. Today, I have this panicky feeling inside. Yet my brain is telling me not to act on it and still seems to be in charge.

I don't know where that panick came from. I went to check what time the movie The New World was playing today but it has been postponed a week (or there was a typo there to begin with and it was never coming out this week). Anyway, I wonder if my panic is because I may see H today or if it is that I may not see him today as this movie is not playing after all.

I just got to calm down. My mind a heart were so in sink last night but not today. I got to think this through and realize nothing has changed and my life is without my H in it as it has been for months now. Ok, deep breaths.

Daisy

Dear Daisy,

I understand that "panick" feeling too well. And it comes up from no where sometimes. Like you said, on good days your brains and heart can work together but on bad days, your brains telling your heart rational behaviors or thinking just does not help.

Maybe you felt this way because you knew if the movie was on, you might have seen your H.

I like what your dad said - that there is always a future. I was just wondering during the lunch break - why are we all here? To suffer? Sometimes it seems my life does not serve any purposes - but then I questioned myself - did it have purposes before? STBX cannot be the purpose of my life. So what is the difference between before and after the failure of our marriage? If I felt life was good and I had some kind of goals in my life, then I should still have them, right? Just because STBXH left, I should not lose my goals.

My brains can argue pretty well, but my heart is often too tired to listen or to believe in any theory...

You give an impression that you are a very calm and rational person. You have done a great job since your H left, and I think you have grown so much.

Hugs,
Milk