Milk you said:



From my perspective, "SHOWING EMOTIONS" and "APPEARING NEEDY" are not necessarily equated. It takes a STRONG WOMAN to OPENLY AND SINCERELY express her emotions WITH CONVICTION...



Again, in my view, equating two different things. Sharing your continued love for your husband IS NOT the same as saying I can't function without you....



I think this would be a major mistake during Plan A. Anyways, a WS will not show that they are listening and will not want to hear this. The WS wants to justify continuation of the A. The goal of Plan A is to counter the justifications...



I agree that this should not be said OVER AND OVER..only at SELECTED AND/OR APPROPRIATE TIMES....

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

milk....
Thank you for your posts.....I don't know if I am lucky or not that H wants contact with me.......only time will tell.

I guess I am still afraid of being completely open with H......I did not think I was......

Daisy

You are right, mimi, it does take a strong woman to openly and sincerly express her emotions. When I spoke with H last, I did tell him I was in love with him still (back in Dec). I am sure I said it with conviction (i.e. he did belive that to be the case). However, I was really emotional and that is a part that I am afraid to show him again.

I don't want to cry infront of the man again. I just don't. I guess in my mind, if I were to say what I feel without crying, that would show that I am a strong woman. If I cannot say it without being emotional, I feel that I am weak. I believe I am weak, so I am not confident, and hence he will see that I am not a strong woman.

If I cannot say how I feel with confidence and strength then I feel weak and I appear weak! I guess I still am not as strong as I would like to believe.


I am getting stronger every day. At this point I feel that I am doing as much as I can from the Plan A as possible. I guess you feel that I ought to tell him what my feelings are again. I did tell him how I felt back in Dec. Is it time again to restate my position?

Last time we talked I told him I had not given up on us. I told him I loved him. Does he need to know that again? I show him I love him with my actions.

Are you saying that he needs to know again that I have not given up on us? Your last statement was that the BS need not say ILY all the time, but at opportune times. In your opinion it is time again?


Daisy

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Why is this Daisy? Why do you equate showing your emotions with being weak? Do you get down on your knees wailing, begging and pleading? THAT IS WEAKNESS...

Sincerely expressing your emotions..even if tearful..can be viewed as being STRONG...

What are your actions?

I met H yesterday and we had a nice conversation. It made me realize that H has not changed at all. He is still a dreamer. I really didn't realize just how much of a dreamer he is.

Yesterday he said he is reallizing that he is really not good at accomplishing things. That in theory he can see getting a lot done, like playing the quitar, reading, getting in shape, writing his papers (getting a carrier)...etc......but in reallity he is not able to do any of that. I told him that perhaps he needs to focus on one thing (his quitar playing) that it is not about getting everything done. He said he was not really able to do even that. I told him that sometimes you just got to do it, and not wait till you feel like doing it.

He is still batteling with the same questions. He said he does not really get anything done, but in theory he should. He is having a tough time with the classes, getting the papers done. He does get them done but is never happy with the output. Now he says he does not think he is even getting better at writing that he basically does not see any improvement, and that he is not capable of it. I don't know what to say to this anymore.

I walked away thinking that he may or may not change, but today he is still the guy that has a difficult time getting things done. I had a really hard time living with that guy. I can say that I am much more relaxed about getting things done, but I am not as relaxed about it as he is. But then I wonder, is he really relaxed about them? It seems to me, by all this analysis he is not happy that he is not getting things done, but at the same time, cannot convince himself to just do it.

This is when I wonder if I really could take him back now....I have learned a lot about him during this past year..... I just don't know if I could take that "I'll do it when I feel like" attitue...seeing as he really rarly feels like......

When we were together, he found me quite irritating for asking him to do something......when he did not feel like doing it.....for months......

To me it seems that the one thing that he is doing now that he really does not feel like is work (and he did not want to do that when we were together). Now he does it, because it is a matter of living on the street or living in an appartment. Couple of years ago he actually did opt out for living on the street (well in his car actually) and he did odd jobs here and there to get food and gas money and just moved from town to town. When he told me about this I thought it was interseting how he lived, and how much he changed. I wonder if he really has.....

I love him, but I thing somewhere deep inside I want him to be a little different....so if that is the case, do I really love him?????

Daisy

mimi....

I guess it is a matter of definition....I guess my definition of weak is different.....probably based on my experience....based on how I have acted in the past.


I have never begged H to come back! Whenever he said I'll do it if you want me to, I said no, do it if you want to.

I only once held on to him......I was in a lot of pain and he was being so hard on me (or so I thought) that I told him he had no compassion. He got really angry and started to storm out of my house. That is the only time I ran after him and held on to his arm and asked him not to leave yet, and asked him to talk. He did stay and we talked. I never did anything like that before and since. (this was back in July).


I guess I imagine myself telling him I want him in my life, that I feel love for him and I feel that and I am not ashamed to feel that, and I am not embaresed to feel that, all the while keeping my composure and being confident. I don't want to cry anymore. I guess it is something I demand of myself.

Daisy

What are my actions....mimi.....

I engage him in conversation
I show interst in his studies
I show interest in what he does, ask about what he is reading, how his music is going....

I offered to pick him up from the airport and basically fought over him with his friend, to make sure I was the first one he saw when he came back from CA....it was 1:30 in the morning...

I read his poetry and told him how I felt about it. I spend some time putting my thoughts together about it.

I bought him a rare book that was written by one of his advisors that he always wanted......he was really surprised!

I bought him another book of poetry by his favorite poet.

I spend time with him and make myself available to him

I send him a picture that reminded me of his dream

I envited him to lunch this sunday and I am making his favorite czech dish......

I gave him one of my papers to read to show him I value his opinion because I really do....

I was honest with him in our conversation yesterday that sometimes he just needs to pick somthign to do and stick with it....

I was honest with him when I told him his poetry is beautiful....

I send him an email telling him about what HIS cat (he loves her) was doing the other night.....

I guess he can interpret that as anything....but I do all those things because I love him.....

Daisy

sorry, I got to go.......I am having dinner at a friends, and I am already late...... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Daisy:

I think that I am beginning to understand what you are saying to me.

It's a good thing that I am starting to forget the early days after D-Day.

In thinking back, though, I found it helpful to actually prepare SCRIPTS when I had something important that I wanted to say to my WH. That way, I could get my point across without becoming "TOO EMOTIONAL" as you say.

I think the key is to make sure that you communicate THE CONTENT despite the EMOTIONS that you are showing. I think it would be difficult for almost any of us to talk to our WSes about this stuff WITHOUT showing EMOTION. If you wait for the ability to do that you may never talk to him about vital issues.

So the strength will come from preparing specifically WHAT you want to say and WHEN you want to say it. In my coaching with Steve Harley, he would say: "Write this down to say..." and then I would say EXACTLY what he recommended.

I think your LOVING actions are WONDERFUL...

I do think it's time for more directed CONVERSATION...

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

mimi....

Thank you for yours thoughts......there was something you wrote on another thread about how your M was good before the A. I have been doing a lot of thinking these past few weeks. My M was not good before H left. Why? We were only married for less then 2 years and together for about 3 and 1/2. There were many issues, many which I would deal with differently now....I am changing and what I wanted from my H was a chance to show him that our M could be better. But I have also been realizing that he needs to change. In the last few weeks, we have been having good conversation, but they are a signal to me that he has not changed on the issues that I cannot compromise with.

I think back to whenever we had to deal with a major issue. He never came up with any sugestion on how to deal with it. My biggest concern is his view on work. Does he think I go to work because I am so LOVING what I do? I did love it once, but now I do it because it is my job, I have to do something in life, and I have bills (thanks to him I have a house!) and I have to do something to pay them. I remember when I asked him to go get a job, right after we got married (oh, yes, the honeymoon was over soon). He was not happy about that. He bi**ed to someone about how he could not find work adn was happy about that. I think about what I could do differently, and I could discuss it with him better, and be open to hearing him concenred, but at the end of the day, if he was really honest with me, he would have told me that he did not want to work or do anything around the house. I still would want him to get a job, and I don't see how you can POJA that. I don't. I would expect that "I" am not blaimed for him having to work. H basically felt that I made enough money and he did not have to work. It is true, I made enough, but I did not make enough to cover the bills, and his expensive life style, while I bought myself very little and I still work on everything at home.

I have come to the realization that we could have had a more open and honest marriage. There I was at fault as much as he. But that would not have been enough for the marriage to last. I do not want a man who is perfectly comfortable to sit at home while I work, and at the same time does not help me with much at home, and goes out downtown, so he can enjoy all the coffee shops and bars, and basically meet people. This is not a man I want. H is that man. I was not happy with that man, and he was not happy NOT being that man. We could not win.

Furthermore, H keeps in touch with all his exes. Well, all except one, who broke it off (HS) and told him that she did not want to see him. He wanted to stay in touch. So, this is H's patern. Him staying in contact with me is not a sign of him reaching out to me. He is doing it, because it is something he has always done. I am in no way special.

At this very moment I do not want 'him' back. I want the man I know he could be, if he tried. My history with him, and this last 9 months apart have come to convince me, he is someone that I cannot live with. I love him, I miss him, and I would probably take him back because of those two reasons, but the person he is, I cannot live with. Our M does not have a chance. I cannot live with a man that is comfortable with his wife working her butt off while he is sitting downtowns drinking a capacino, and is ticked of when his wife asks him to help her clean or just to take a walk with her. Seriously, he did not even want to take a walk with me. He talked about having freedom to think, that he needed all this time to himselve, but when he had it, he spend it downtown talking to people and hanging out at bars and clubs and coffee shops. He is a lier. He did not want to be with me. Period. He did not want to be in a serious relationship. I guess we want different things.

I may sound harsh, but I am not. I was perfectly happy to work while he stayed at home and worked on his music. He could have been playing his music and going downtown. He could have had that life. I wanted it for him, because I knew just how important his music was to him. But he could not do that. No, he said he would play his music, he bought all this stuff, and then when it came down to the actual work, he lasted maybe 2 weeks (even though he loves it!) and then he quit and went to do his thing....which included hanging out downtown, and being ticked off at me for asking him to do something (anything) around the house and asking him to budget. Yes, how dare I ask him not to spend so much money. How dare I question him paying 300 dollar for shoes? Don't get me wrong. I could have gone and bought myself $1000 dollar shoes and he would have never complained. In that way he is a nice guy. But not very realistic. Because had I not payed any attention, we would have had masive credit card debt. We have none, because while he bought his 300 dollar shoes, and his 300 dollar X-box that he played with 3 weeks, I bought very little. Did I resent him? You bet I did. And I did not like that, so I tried to explain it to him that I thougth we should have a budget. I suggested we each have like 50$ to spend a week, just on ourselves! Was that unreasonable? I did not think so. Was that exceptable? You bet it was NOT! He plain told me that he would spend what he felt like. Did he change? Yes, but resented me for it. Afterall, he should have been able to do as he liked. I sit here and I cannot believe I married this man. He traded his parent (who payed for all his bills.....and gave him money for the wedding and 1/2 he spend on himself, while he saw that my parents gave me nothing, and I payed for my half of the wedding myself ~ I was also a student!)....he traded his parents for me. He thought it was all about money for me, but it was not! It was about respect! He did not respect me, the time I spend working, he took all I did for granted. I was just the annoying individual in his life who was in the way of him getting his way!



I had a bunch of people over for lunch and the supperball. I made a big lunch, took me several hours adn a nice desert from scratch and seved it with icecream. While we ate the desert H had a nice story to tell us all, about this really fancy desert he had (Non of us have heard of it) at one of the top restraurants in town recently, and just how delicious this desert was (not once did he say mine was good ~ I spend some time on it ~ what a jerk). Then he went on to tell us just how delicious the whole meal and the experience was. My friend asked him where it was and who did he go with. He said "with a friend". Oh, really, I'd love to meet this friend. When I asked him to bring a friend to the lunch, he said he had none, and that he did not know anyone well enough to bring to the lunch. Really, so he knows someone well enough to go to a fancy restaurant (when he complains to all these friends about how he has no money) but not to a simple lunch with friends? Yah, right. My friend looked at me, she was thinking the same thing as me.

Not once did he even ask if I needed any help serving people or wahtever. Not once did he offer to help in any way, everyone else did! Not once did he even take any dirty plate or glass off the table. Nothing. The only stupid comment he had was that "it really was not a traditional czech meal, since the man would not be cleaning if it was(my 2 guy friends were doing the dishes)". I told him that we were not going to take tradition that far.

He did manage quite well to go upstairs to check his email. He did go upstairs later and hung out there for 10-15 minutes doing I don't know what.

But, yes, he did manage to ignore me for several hours as we watched the game. He did thank me at the end, in his usual way. The man is all words....no action. By the end, I wanted him out of my house. He did not have enough respect for me to keep his stupid story about his "date" to himself....



Daisy

{{{Daisy}}}

I can't believe your H was careless and arrogant enough to talk about this fancy restaurant in front of you. And to say such a nasty joke about "traditional czech meal"! It appears to me, he is a spoiled man. Were his parent pamper him? Is he the first or the only boy in his family? My STBXH is Italian, and his father (I love him and he is a nice guy, but he is quite traditional) raised his boys quite traditionally in terms of not letting them do any housework while spoiling them financially. And they were not taught to be financially responsible either. Also in my culture in the past boys were spoiled and girls are supposed to do everything, so now we have to do both (working outside as well as doing all the housework).

When I see other couples who seem to have good relationships, I noticed one thing - guys are not lazy. I am not trying to say it's all men's fault - not at all - but we women often do end up doing a lot more because we may cook and clean better or because we become mothers. Guys often still have the mentality that women should cook and clean - which is fine, but in old days women did not work outside so it was balanced - now many of us do. I remember feeling resentful towards STBXH because I leave earlier than he does for work, I come home later than he does from work, I go pick up DS3, I come home, I cook, I give DS3 a bath, and I clean. STBXH would be watching TV or playing computer games. If I complain, he would say "do you mind? I had a long day". ****** yes, I mind! I had a long day as well!!

And I always made more money than STBXH did but would spend on his expensive "toys" (camera, computer, camcorder, all of his porn DVDs, etc.) without consulting with me.

Your H does not sound like he understands how much work you put in. You are supposed to do everything. That is how he views it. I am guessing his mom was stay-at-home mom, and he is used to being taken care of. But you are not staying home mom!

Maybe your H does small "cute" stuff here and there, that may melt your heart or make you feel he is a lovable person. Because that is what STBXH does. They know how to get away from "hard work". And they are really good at making you feel bad if you ask them to share responsibility!

I don't think your H will be able to maintain any serious R with anyone, if he continues to be this childishly selfish. Especially here in NA, women are a lot tougher, I think..., they will not put up with those men who expect you to do everything simply because you are women!

Hugs, Daisy, and take care of yourself...

Milk

You are correct..

Does sound like your R is a lot different than mine was during the early stages and the way it is now...

Unfortunately,I do find it difficult to relate to much of your situation...

I'm Sorry that you are going through this...

I pray for your happiness, Daisy...

Hang in there....

mimi....

thanks....I know you are trying to help me...I married someone who was not happy being "married" to me from the beginning. He probably just wanted a sexual relationship, but by the time "he realized it" we were already married and it took being married to realize for him that marriage was not what he wanted. I think if I had been better able to be open and honest that I would be able to walk away from this M feeling better, but I honestly think that the outcome would not have changed. H was quite good at pointing the finger at the issue (lack of openness), but taking the finger away from something that was HIS issue alone and was an issue nevertheless.


Well, I had installed the keylogger. When H checked his email here last night, I found another email account he has. Apparently he was asking some girl out (persuing her quite a lot) back in July. I kept wanting to give him the benefit of the doubt, but there it is again in black and white just how gone he really was even as he left. She did tell him no (she was seperated as well ~ he told her he took of his ring and asked her why she did not do the same and kept asking her out). This was back in July, when I was in CA visiting my family. We were still working on the M <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />! Oh, and by 'we' I guess I really mean "I" <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />.....his mind was clearly elsewhere.....what an a$$......

I am glad I know. I kept telling myself that he would not have dated anyone while we were still working on it........I don't know what kind of person this makes me, when after everything.....I keep want to believe in that man <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />.

I must be the worlds biggest fool.

Well, it is good to know what was up. He was so cake-eating in July (after I came back) and August...he led me on...used me.....I guess he figures he did not lie when I asked him if he was seeing someone and he said NO...But what a jerk, he actually told me that "that would confuse things"....really????? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />...what a lier...he is so immature, it is not even funny.....I yet again see him in such a different light.......

I wanted to believe in that man........but I don't anymore....

Daisy

Well, my theory that my H was happy to live of off me is true.....

found this nice email in his other account.....




Where have I been.......I really am the most naive individual around........

Daisy

funny thing is that I never checked his account until in Oct. of 2005 when I thought he was really being strange..........I never gave him a reason to feel that I would be jellous!!! DAmit, I once said something about him not telling me that his ex was at our wedding until after the wedding. What the he$$???!! is he telling these people.

I went back to look at all the emails I have send to him and he send to me.

It was interesting to go back and see the emails he send to me at the time that he was "trying to go out with this woman" back in July.

He asked her out again on July 11th. She wrote back on July 12th, saying that she was not interested. We talked in the envening of July 12th, I called from CA, and he was really ticked off at me for no reason and had no patience and I tried so hard, but it was not going anywhere and we got off the phone. I ended up writing him an email appoligizing for my side of the conversation and for not realizing that sometimes he would not feel like talking, that he had thing on his mind and just because I wanted to talk, did not mean he did. He wrote back on July 13th
What a fool I was! He got rejected and he took it out on me, and I was the one appoligizing for not being udnerstanding enough!!!!

And then all along aftewards, he kept accusing me of not telling him what was on my mind! He kept going after me telling me that he had no idea what I was thinking, that I was so secretive with my emotions! What a bunch of BS! He is trying to date some other women and he is telling me I am secretive! I was feeling so much pressure from him, I could not even be comfortable as he kept scrutinizing me! And all alone he was the one with a guilty conceince.

I just cannot believe he let me go on and on for months feeling so bad about myself and all the mistakes I have made.....when he was still working it out with me and at the same time wanting to date someone......I guess he kept me around as long as other options where not working out. Now, he has something that is working out and I have been kicked to the curb.......

I am writing him a letter.......It may or may not be a plan B letter, but it is definately a "do not contact me again letter".......

He does not deserve a friend like me......

Daisy

Daisy, I am so sorry you keep finding these unpleasant emails. I know how you feel, because I have gone through these "looking back" and "analyzing" stages, feeling extremely stupid trusting my STBXH completely. That is why I said in one of my post yesterday that I do not have any faith in him anymore.

I truly think your H is so lost in the fog. What kind of person is he to be able to say "I will live off my wife's income"??? Doesn't he have any pride or shame??? But, that is pretty much what STBXH said. He said "I stayed with you because you make good money and we can buy nice things". WHAT???

It is possible that he feels this way because he is in the "victim" mode and believes he can justify this. Meaning, somehow he feels it is YOUR fault that he is not successful and not happy, so why not let you pay for his living expenses? It's so twisted, but it is possible.

It's your call Daisy, I personally think you are too good for him and he will NEVER in million years find a wife as good as you. Then MAYBE finally he will miss what he once had. Or maybe he may blame you for the loss as well, who knows. If he is the kind of person who cannot take his own responsiblity, he is not going to feel bad about what he has done or not done. If he does not get any help, he will just wind up on the street! But that is not your problem. You have shown your love and repect to this man while he was cheating or trying hard to cheat (very similar to mine), without feeling any sense of guilt - not only that, he flat out said that he would not have any problems USING you in the mean time financially! Why do you have to pay for his dating costs with other women??? If he wants to live a irresponsible and totally unrealistic life he dreams about, let him. How is he going to even feed himself?? Do you think any NORMAL women will go out with a man who does not even want to work? He is soooooooooo lost.

Milk....thank you for your thoughts.

I have slowly come to realize that the man he is now is not who I want in my life. I was proud to be his wife, and I did the best I could, giving who I thougth he was and what I thought he wanted in life.

I don't want him back the man he is today.

I wish it all had come out when he left me. I can forgive him the affair, the dating other woman as we worked it out, etc....what I am having trouble with and the reason I don't want to talk to him anymore, is that he was doing all these things while I tried so hard to work on this marriage and instead of inlightening me on these facts, he opted to not only deceive me, but use me, and let me suffer trying to figure out what I had done. I was twisting and turning, I was willing to do anything, I was wracking my brain, I was turning inside out to be the woman he wanted. For months I went on and on like this....he had pleanty of opportunities to tell me he wanted out and date other women. But no, he had to go to MC with me and talk about how we lost respect for each other, and how I was making it about cleaning, when it was not about that at all, tell me all he wanted was time to HIMSELF, freedom, space....time to refect....lies and lies... He had to tell me how I was not open with him, how I was unable to communicate with him.....he took advantage of me sexually and financially.

I will forgive him all this....but I don't need to face that person who so blantly disrespected me and continues to do so.

I am in a much better place then I was just a few months ago. I will be happy again......

I know there are people that deal with the fog of the WS so much here, that my situation is mild in comparason. I feel betrayed nevertheless and I don't want to deal with him. I can find someone else.....I know it will not be easy to make it work in the next relationship....but I will do my best.


Milk, he will never see how good he had it. That really is a shame. I would have been friends with him, had he been honest and told me that he is with someone else, or wants someone else. BUt he continuoulsy lied and told me that it was not about being with someone else, and that he was not interested in being with someone else, and that it would make everything complicated. After all these lies and deceit and all this crap about living off of me, well...I don't need this person for a friend. I don't have many friends, but I know that the friends that I do have have my best interst at heart. He did not and does not!

Daisy

I wrote to H and told him I don't want to keep in contact any longer. I did not give any explanation.

This is the email I got back....




I cannot believe he is telling me that he has been honest with me. Wow. He is some piece of work. He knows he has not been honest, so why is he lying. Why not just omit that line. How can he write that knowing what he did? What a jerk.....

I have no intentions of replying......

Daisy

H tells me I don't know why you want to be so hurtful to me !

What have I done? I never said those words to him and he left me! He wanted his freedom and his space, left me behind, and I had no choice in the matter. Now, we see each other here and there, and when I stand up for myself and tell him I don't wish to see him any longer, he is asking me, why I am being hurtful. Give me a break! I am hurting for months, he has hurt me so much. He thinks I have no clue about what he has been up to for months, and so that means he has not done anything to hurt me.


I did go out on a date with a girl and I am sorry I let that slip.
Yah, first he is dumb enough to let it slip and then he is dump enough to say the above. Does he not get that he should be honest, and just say what is going on. How does he expect to have a "good friendship" with me if he is keeping these things to himself? FOG talk.



I know that I will not hear from him again. I never thought it would end like this, but I don't want him to be my friend or even a really good friend. I don't. Maybe one day it will happen on its own. But is he crazy? Does he think I will stand by and watch him date other women? I love him so much right now, I cannot stand by and put myself through that. If he ever loved anyone he would know that asking me to be just a friend was impossible for me to deliver.

I am in so much pain right now. It hurts so much to know I will never talk to him again like we use to.....

Daisy