Bigger - Thanks for the clarification. I misunderstood. I thought you were suggesting that NZ girl and the baby move illegally to NZ.

NZ Girl - I was looking for the stats on how long affairs typically last, saw them the other day, but couldn't find them today. I do remember that very few last 3 years, which is where I'm at. I believe that most are under a year.

Bigger

Thanks again, you have made another very valuable point about who is financially responsible if XWBF delays my departure from the UK. Also I will contact the NZ Embassy to see what their take is on the situation.

From I understand, I have to get an Order from the court, by consent, which is a form that XWBF signs and is submitted to the courts. From the time XWBF signs and it is filed at the courts and completed it is a matter of days. So the delay I can see is getting XWBF to sign.

I am a NZ citizen, my daughter is a UK citizen but her NZ citizenship is being processed right now, lodged that about 3 weeks ago. XWBF has a UK passport and is a citizenship to Australia where he has spent 2/3 of his life.

Finally, I am returning to NZ because that is where I want to live, and I feel the time is right to do that, give or take a few months. I have tried to work things out with XWBF but to no avail. Returning to NZ will allow DD and myself a better lifestyle, support and more financial security, it is not a last ditch effort to try to get XWBF back, it is about what is best for us.

Thanks Believer

A year on average for affairs - so this one has still got a few months to go. Your situation is above average then, that must be frustrating.

NZ,

Glad 2 C u r thinking clearly on this matter. U already have a home in NZ so that's a big plus as far as providing for your daughter.

BTW, my letter was more of a vent than a legal manuever. LOL!!! But some points were valid enough to give to your lawyer. His lawyer is '[censored]-u-ming' and their backends will be visible in the courts. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

Don't fret over what gets exposed...... let your lawyer earn their pay. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

take care,
L.

Orchid

I did take your post as a vent and did get some points out of it. Did think it would be good to send a letter like that though <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Yes I am pleased that I have my house and have saved my money to have it paid off, I made XWBF sign a contract stating what was mine is mine and what is his is his about 4 years ago, so he can't touch it. Pretty pleased about that.
Thanks again

NZ,
u r one smart girl. I am proud of u. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

take care,
L.

NZ,

I am glad your reasons for going to NZ are based on logical and sensible grounds. I have some friends who immigrated there and they absolutely love it. Say the lifestyle is more relaxed and it’s a great place for kids.

The problem with the Order of Consent is exactly that your XWBF can delay signing. Just like his lawyer’s letter can be drawn for over a month before any action so can he draw signing for a long time. He can then announce he questions the consent and that’s when things slow down for real.

He can doubt your sanity, your capability as a parent, your financial abilities and so on. Every accusation must be checked and it is this time I would be afraid of. In my country (Scandinavian country) we have cases of custody that have drawn out for over a year due to such accusations. Problem is he can more or less bring out one accusation at a time. Mention this to your attorney.

If your D does not have a passport or has a UK passport then be very careful about my advice on leaving. Being stopped in immigration at Heathrow will not help your case. Getting her a NZ passport or adding her to your passport will be better.

To clarify my NZ-UK court decision it might help the “people in the Colonies” to compare it to different laws in different states. Although a common law and common ground rules apply to all states there are differences for example regarding the part of adultery in divorce/custody. In this case citizenship weighs equally to residence and I am simply asking NZGirl to consider taking the case to the court that is better for her and more likely to reach her desired conclusion.

Bigger - thanks again, I have had his verbal consent many times to return to NZ when I want, and yes realise that this probably won't mean anything if he tries to make things difficult. So I have been noting down all things about his visits. In the 6 months since we have been back in the UK, he has had 32 days out of the country on holiday (with OW), 31 days out of the country for work, of the 25 visits he has made he has been late for 12 of them. The one time DD was in hospital he didn't show up. Of the 3 times DD has been too sick to go to day care he hasn't been available to look after her. I think this shows that DD is not a proirity. He even said to me last week that he is number 1.

I think I have done a great job looking after DD by myself, if he starts to play dirty I will really be ticked off. But I do realise this is a possibility. He really would be pushing sh*t up hill, to try to discredit me, give what he has done.

Yes, New Zealand is a great place, excellent outdoor lifestyle, no traffic issues, easy to get around. An excellent place to bring up children. Living in London has its benefits, but as DD is getting older, living in a 2 bedroom flat is starting to be unsuitable. Granted we live close to Hyde Park, but it is not the same as having your own garden which DD can run around in. The more I talk about it the more excited I am about going home. And on top of all that we have the 'All Blacks' who are the best rugby team in the world! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Hope the cold weather of late isn't too cold where you are, London has certainly chilled down this week.

Bigger,

I appreciate your 'advice' in helping NZ go in a healthy and safe direction. Seems you have working knowledge of the legal systems in that part of the world? If so, that is helpful. Many a BS feel lost when having to deal with various countries legal systems.

Anyway, wanted 2 say thanks.

L.

XWBF came yesterday to see DD. I could be wrong, but I am getting the feeling that he is going to play dirty. I never mentioned his letter from his lawyer and neither did he. He did however ask me what was happening with my work contract, I told he same as before finishes on 23 Dec, he asked what was I going to do, I said probably go back to New Zealand (this is not news to him). He asked if I had booked tickets yet, I said no. He said won't tickets be expensive that time of year, I said only if you leave it until the last minute to book.

Later on that day we went to aquarium with DD. I took a photo of DD on my mobile phone, she was sitting with XWBF, he asked for a copy of it. At the time I thought nothing of it and transferred it to his mobile phone. Now I am thinking that he might use it to show that DD is happy to be with him. What the photo doesn't show is that every opportunity that DD wanted to be picked up she came to me. I am getting worried the more I think about it. I have my lawyer appointment today at 2pm.

Keep the pix in case it does come up in court so you can show that you took the picture. Why? Because you can let them know that it was because you were there that the pix came out sooo well. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

L.

Don’t fret too much about the picture. Sure it might show DD is happy when around her father. That is to be expected and can also indicate that the main up bringer (you) are doing a good, unbiased job in raising her. A big plus for you. The picture can also indicate that you are capable of being sane, calm and reasonable around your XWBF. This might make it hard for XWBF to make any claims to the contrary.

You are going through a tough time. Please don’t make it harder by second guessing or doubting everything said and done. Make your plan and see it through.

I guess your XWBF is afraid you will take my advice and just leave. Since he is aware of that possibility I withdraw that suggestion unless as a last resort. You have to be 100% sure of making it all the way through immigration in NZ for that option to be safe.

Talk to your attorney about the best way to make it clear to all parties you plan on leaving on the 23rd. I really think you are leaving it rather late and the tickets will be very expensive. Legal issues like these go along at a glacial speed: your attorney has 2-3 days to write the letter, 7 days in post (that’s the protocol), 14 days to react, 14 days “courtesy wait” for reply, 7 days to react…. So I doubt you will have a formal reply from XWBF for quite some time.

Orchid and Bigger - thanks

I have been upfront with XWBF, he knows I do contract work and that the work can stop at anytime, which is why I have not been able to firm things up with him and my actual plans to leave the country. I have however, kept him informed of my contract finish dates, and of the possbility that we maybe leaving the UK. He has never objected to the fact that we will be leaving the UK to me. This letter from his lawyer has been a spanner in the works, and yes a real possibility that things could be delayed, I acknowledge this and am now cursing myself for not getting his agreement for us to leave the UK in writing sooner, but at the time, I didn't know what was going to happen to our relationship.

I am currently waiting on DD NZ citizenship and NZ passport to come through. I wasn't aware until recently that I won't be able to travel to NZ with DD on a UK passport on a one way ticket, hence the applications. At least these applications were submitted a few weeks before this letter from XWBF was received.

Thanks for the advice about the photo, I will try not to fret about things that might be happening, I know I can't control things, only what I do and how I react.

Just got back from lawyer here is our response:-

We are proposing that XWBF gets pick DD up on alternate Sundays from 9am to 1pm, starting this Sunday.

Lawyer is faxing through an agreement for XWBF to sign which states that he agrees that I can take DD out of the UK permanently. We have given them 48 hours to reply before following up on Thursday morning. This consent is sufficient, I don't need to lodge anything with the courts, which should speed things up.

Have stated that XWBF has stated verbally on many occasions that I can leave the country with DD when I wished.

Have asked for a definition of 'initially' with regard to OW not being involved in his visits with DD on Sunday's

Have asked what XWBF proposes for financial support once in New Zealand

Have stated that mediation has been suggested by myself on 2 occasions which was refused by XWBF.

Have stated that XWBF can ring and visit DD when we are back in New Zealand.


I am not sure how he will go with alternate Sunday visits and from 9am to 1pm, he proposed 10am to 6pm on every Sunday which I think is too long for DD to be out and about, and if he sees her every Sunday, I don't get to spend much quality time with DD, as Saturday's are spent doing chores and letting DD catch up on sleep after being in day care all week and not getting as much sleep as she needs, one of the downsides of day care.

OK here is our reply to letter from WBF lawyer sent yesterday by fax, email and courier, so far no response not that I am expecting a quick response:-

We have been consulted by BGF who has passed to us a copy of your letter to her dated 16 November.

May we firstly point out to you that whilst your letter was dated 16 November, BGF only received it on 24 November. The envelope postmark was dated 23 November.

We are instructed that WBF has confirmed verbally to our client that he would not stop BGF leaving the country when she wished. The last day that this was stated to her was 16 November 2005.

BGF has already told your client that her work contract is finishing on 23 December and that it is highly likely that she will be returning to New Zealand on or around this date.

So as to avoid any uncertainty or misunderstanding we have prepared a letter of consent which we enclose herewith and would invite your client to sign. Please take your client’s urgent instructions.

With reference to contact, DD is only 20 months old. Our client is therefore of the opinion that 10:00am to 6:00pm is too long for DD to be away from her home and her mother and this has been expressed to your client before.

You state that your client’s partner would not initially be involved on contact occasions, would you please clarify what you mean by “initially”.
Our client proposes contact on alternate Sundays, commencing 4 December from 9:00am – 1:00pm. Your client can take Emma out to suitable venues e.g. the Play Centre at the Seymour Centre, Kensington, Leisure Centre, Hyde Park (depending on the weather), swimming and then for lunch. Midweek contact to continue as before.

With regard to contact once BGF has returned to New Zealand, Ms McClure confirms that WBF can telephone as often as he wishes and will also be able to visit DD there. When your client has more specific proposals, perhaps he would please let her know and they will be considered at the appropriate time.

Please would you confirm your client’s proposals for the future financial support of DD once our client has returned to New Zealand.

With regard to mediation, our client has on two occasions suggested this to WBF however, your client flatly refused.

Please may we now hear from you by return in relation to your client’s consent for DD to be removed permanently from the jurisdiction failing which an application will have to be made to Court. We trust this will be unnecessary.


Yours faithfully

Just checked bank account, and WBF hasn't paid DD day care fees for next month. Not too worried about it because I have instructed daycare to use deposit money for December fees since we may not be here in January instead of paying upfront and then waiting for a refund if we are not here in January. What is annoying is I am not sure if this is accidental or intentional. I would have thought that if intentional it would be common courtesy to advise me that he wasn't going to pay, or he could have had his lawyer advise me that he was changing the financial arrangements in the letter he sent to me.

NZ,

Make sure your financials are covered.

A technique that is used by lawyers / solicitors here in the colinies / US is to starve the victims financially / withhold support to get you to sign off on a document that may not be in your best interest.

I hope that the WBF is not playing that game but please be prepared.

I hope you get home safe and sound without undue delay.

Good point WTF! The “starve to submission” tactic is very common.

One good thing in your favor is the fact your attorney seems willing to work fast on your case. Normally an attorney would use registered mail but using the fax to save time is very good. Attorneys bill by the hour and by the tasks so cutting corners is something they loath to do.

Next time you hear from your attorney ask whether you can leave on the 23rd if your XBF has not responded. I have a feeling that by sending the fax you have a strong case and now it is his turn to react.

Why is DD by default British if her father is Australian and mother from NZ? I would have thought the father’s or more likely the mother’s citizenship would be the prime citizenship of the child. United Kingdom, New Zealand and Australia all accept dual citizenship for children born to parents with citizenship in the respective countries. The child has to choose citizenship before the age of 18 or 22 (varies) but until then is by default a citizen of both countries. I think you don’t have to apply for NZ citizenship for DD but only a passport.

Hey Thanks

Just checked bank account again this morning and the money is there. The money is 4 days late. No phone call or anything from him to advise that it is late and he has just paid it! Wondering if his lawyer advised him to not pay until I responded to his letter! This, if true is very rude and unfair - but maybe XWBF just forgot to pay?

DD Father was born in UK and his family immigrated to Australia when he has 10. DD has a UK passport by descent and being born in UK and the same goes for a NZ passport. You have to however apply for NZ citizenship by descent if born outside of NZ and then you can apply for a NZ passport. Luckily the NZ High Commission is practical and allows you to apply for both at the same time to speed things up.

Financially my focus has been about saving, so DD and I have a reasonable base when we get back to NZ. XWBF not paying DD childcare fees would impact by preventing me from saving as much money as I would like but not enough to starve me and force me in to a position of signing something I disagree with.

XWBF is coming tonight to see DD, I plan to say nothing about lawyers letters, but it will be interesting to see if he says anything.

Looks like u got your side under control. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> I am proud of your progress. The ability to see and think clearly is exactly what you need.

Keep up the good work. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Hugz,
L.