XWBF came tonight to see DD. After DD in bed, he mentioned that he had received my lawyers letter, and wanted to know why I had proposed alternate Sunday's when he is seeing DD every Sunday now and I am present for these visits. I said that at the moment on Saturday's I spend half the day doing chores and the other half allowing DD catch up on sleep after being in day care all week whilst I am working. Alternate Sunday's allows me to have some quality time with DD too. If he gets every Sunday I don't get the opportunity to spend much quality time with DD as we spend Saturday's catching up on chores and sleep, didn't think this was fair.

He said he is not happy with this and that we should compromise, and it would be better to not keep involving lawyers! I said I thought that what I proposed was fair, given DD age and what was best for her, and suggested he could come another evening during the week to DD instead of the one night to does now. He said I was trying to cut him out of DD life - I told him that he has done that himself with the decisions he has made, I am not responsible for that at all. He said I wanted to cut you out of my life - how hurtful and unrealistic given I am the mother of his DD!

I asked about him signing permission document to leave the country, he said he wasn't agreeing to anything right now, hasn't had enough notice. I told him that I have always been up front with him about my work contract end dates and plans to go to NZ, so it shouldn't have been a surprise.

So it was left that this Sunday he would turn up as normal at 10am we would all go out as normal until this is resolved somehow. He playfully patted my stomach which I told him to not do! Jeepeers I think he is semi flirting with me! Sleepy time now for me

You might want to give a quick jingle to the NZ embassy to check on the "papers" for DD.

Make sure your waterfowl are coaxialy alligned. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> LOL

Good luck! I hope WBF doesn't decide to make things more difficult than they already are.

Hopes & prayers.

NZ Embassy still processing, but should be through mid Dec. If not I can ring and they will pull all stops out and get it done - at a cost, but it will be done.

I have instructed my lawyer to send XWBF lawyer a follow up letter stating that he has until 5pm on Monday to sign the agreement for me to leave the country with DD on a permanent basis. If not received we have advised that we will apply to the courts for a court order.

What got me about conversation with XWBF last night, was it was all about him and that he was not ready and that I was making sure that he was cut out of DD life. Does he really not see that his decision making has caused all of this, not me!

Therein lies your clue......your measuring stick to help you keep that clear mind..... if his convos are 'all about him' and not about DD or your best interests, then recovery isn't even within sight. Best to go protect yourself and your dd from the clutches of the WS in heat.

L.

Here is the reply from XWBF lawyer

Thank you for your letter of 28 November followed by the fax received yesterday.

Your letter of 28th November was sent by us to our client on the 29th. We were not in a position to respond to you, in the absence of our client's instructions. Further, as you have sent letters to us by fax and by e-mail, you would have had confirmation of receipt.

Turning now to the issues, we are aware of DD's age and it is for this reason that our client does agree, that the initial contact time suggested by him may be tiring for her. Therefore, and with DD's best interests at heart, our client will agree contract should take place. To confirm, our client will pick DD up from your client's house at 9am and return her there at 1pm.

You have also asked us to clarify what we meant by 'initally' regarding our client's current partner. The fact is that our client does have a new partner and therefore, she is part of our client's life. However, DD clearly needs to have time with her father, as it is important that the two are able to spend time together and get to know each other well. There is therefore no practical timeline as to when DD will meet with our client's new partner. We suggest that this matter be reviewed in due course, assuming DD is comfortable having contact with our client. Our client's instructions are that is is your client who has a problem with our client's new partner. Indeed, we have been told that your client who as a problem with our client's new partner indeed, we have been told that your client has 'demanded' that our client's partner or indeed, any future possible partners, are never to meet DD. This is unrealistic. Clearly, you will point out to your client that whatever her feelings are towards our clients new partner, this must have no effec on DD's contact with her father. DD is so young, there is no possible reason why DD cannot be introduced to her in due course.

Our client will not agree to your client returning to New Zealand until proper proposals for contact are in place. If your client wishes to make an application to Court, then clearly, we are not in a position to restrain her from so doing. However, we are confident that the court will not allow leave to remove, without first ensuring that proper arranagements are made. Therefore, at the moment, our client is not agreeable to your client returning to the jursidiction of New Zealand. Once contact has been agreed, then he will have no reasonable objections to your client returning to jurisdiction of New Zealand. It is DD's interests that are paramount in this case. Please let me us have your client's proper proposals for contact, including not only contact in New Zealand, but also in England. We will then pass these on to our client for his comments.

Our client tells us that our client has not 'flatly refused' mediation. Indeed, we have passed details of mediators to our client, as he feels that this would be most appropriate. No doubt, the parties will speak and hopefully arrange some sort of mediation regarding contact.

Please confirm that your client will not be making any steps to return to New Zealand until this is agreed, failing which we will have to advise our client to make an application for a Prohibited Steps. We would reiterate our advice to your client that to remove DD without our client's consent is a criminal offence.

My thoughts:
Contact in UK - He has agreed to the reduced times on Sunday's but still insists on every Sunday, is this fair? Or should I let this go and just get his agreement to leave the country?

The partner issue - I want to stipulate that we jointly agree when this will happen. I did initially when I found out about the affair say that OW and any other partner would have nothing to do with DD - kind of think this is a natural reaction, but still have very strong feelings about OW being in contact with DD - that would really hurt.

The contact proposal when in NZ - realistically how can I propose his contact proposal, I don't live his life, I don't know what he wants to do!

Mediation flatly refused - he did refuse this, I guess he wants to make out that he is a reasonable guy

NZ,

Read your attorneys post and then the reply. I am confident you are in good hands. Basically what OA (other attorney) is saying is that this will end up in court unless you resolve issues that are really not relative to your permission to go. This smokescreen will not stand up in court.

For example; your D is way too young to spend summers with dad in England or Australia for that matter. Not to mention alternative weekends! A court will see this and rule accordingly. Especially as you arrived in the UK on a temp basis. Your intent to leave has been clear from day one. What has changes is your XBF commitment to leave with you.

You might ask your attorney whether san agreement to (a) not limit XBF reasonable access to D in the future and (b) to adjust the time he can spend with her according to her age and needs as she grows will not be enough.

If you were to allow OW to be around your D then he would reconsider the permission. OK – today is the 3 of Dec so you could possible concede to OW being around D for 20 days…
BTW – I would tend to suggest you basically allow XBF as much contact as he wants with DD until you go – as long as he has signed the consent. I also think you have to accept the fact that in the future whatever woman XBF ends up with will possibly interact with your D. It is to your D benefit that that woman and she have a good relationship.

To follow up on 'bigger's post (which is good, btw). Have you done a background check on the OW? Is she really safe t/b around your child? Hm..... As it is, the Ws is making bad choices..... no sense jeporadizing your child's safety as a result. It is not only about his rights, your child's safety and well being is in question.

JMHO,
L.

Hi

I have read your posts - thanks again, I have spent the night thinking, the real issue for ME and it is ME only is OW contact with DD. Emotions run high just thinking about it. I know it is me and it is my issue but moving past this to allow OW contact with DD is a big shift to make. I know it is possibly only 20 days, and of that it is probably only going to be about 2 opportunities for OW to be around DD, so the impact is small - I guess it is just the principle.

XWBF spoke to him last night, if I agree he can she DD every Sunday until we leave then he will sign permission slip to leave the UK. We are going to talk about this some more tomorrow, we did discuss OW and I did say I want to have a POJA on when and if OW has contact with DD.

I have offered XWBF an extra night during the week to see DD, but he hasn't taken that up yet. Re the visitation when back in NZ, I have asked him to propose what he thinks he would like to do. I have said he can come as often as he likes, provided we get enough notice.

He is coming tomorrow from 10 to 6pm, we will all go out and do some stuff, I did check with him if he wanted the alone time with DD, but he said no. I think his attorney has advised him to keep things as they have been until sign sealed and delivered, and for him he gets to spend more time with DD.

on the financial issue, I mentioned that this wasn't addressed in his letter, he said no, my attorney was meant to put it in but didn't. He won't tell me verbally what he is proposing, but did say that he is paying way too much now and has it all summed up in a paragraph what his intentions are.

Things did get a little heated last night during the call last night, but I think by the end of it we had both got off our chests what is bothering us.

Re the OW, I haven't done a background check on her, I know her name, where she works and what university she went to, that is about it. I am not confident that I could prove that she is a safety risk for DD. She is a very attractive person, who likes to start relationships with OM regardless of their situation - my XWBF is as much to blame for that as well.

My only leaverage here is that I won't agree for DD to go to their flat unless I have viewed it and verified that it is fit for her to be in, safe, tidy etc. I don't think XWBF wants me in their flat and neither would OW, so I think XWBF would not push for OW to have contact with DD right now.

On another note, my work contract is due to finish 23 Dec, the project has slipped and it looks like about 2 months extra work could be there, so I will need to make a decision on whether I stay another 2 months if offered or go. At least the permission to go back to NZ is getting sorted, that is my main focus, and it needs to be sorted regardless of when I leave.

Things are moving, and I am hoping that tomorrow we will be able to iron things out once and for all <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Great. You are making progress.

Let XBF have D tomorrow BUT press him to sign the release before he gets her again.

Regarding the OW. This is tough but remember – it was your XBF who broke his commitment to you not her. I would try as you can to accept her being around your D for these 20 days if that is what is required to get away. Your D is so young she will not remember her for more than a week after last contact.

Remember – it’s not about revenge – it’s about what is best for you and DD.

Do the grownup thing. The whole situation stinks, but it is what it is. He's her Dad. You're her Mom. You're going to have to be seeing each other for the next couple of decades. You are not going to be able to just go away with his child and forget about him. Set up some mediation.

-AD

Hi AD
Thanks for your post. Yes the whole situation does stink and I think I have been doing the grown up thing. He gets to see his DD now and when we return to NZ he will be able to visit and contact as much as he wants. The key words here being 'as much as he wants.'

Ok here is what we have agreed on yesterday. I think it is fair, let me what you think and if you see anything that you think I should amend.

- Visitation in NZ - we have agreed that you can visit as often as you like. You have agreed that you will advise me with as much notice as possible of your intention to visit and check that this is a suitable time for DD.
- Contact until 23 December 2005 - we have agreed that you can have alone contact with DD every Sunday until 23 December from 9.00am to 1.00pm.
- Contact after 23 December - we have agreed that after the 23 December 2005 if DD is still in the United Kingdom you can have alone contact on alternate Sunday's from 9.00 to 1.00pm.
- We have also agreed that if suitable you may also have contact with DD on non alternate Sunday's if agreeable to both parties after 23 December.
- I have also offered you the option of seeing DD on an additional evening during the week from the current mid week contact that you do. This option if taken up will most likely be on an adhoc basis and will need to be agreed between both parties.
- You have agreed to provide me by Wednesday 7th December with details of your financial proposal for review for when DD leaves the UK permanently.
- You have agreed to the 'Policy of Joint Agreement'(POJA) with regard to introduction of Partners to DD. The POJA means that both parties agree that a Partner can or should be introduced to DD and have regular contact with DD.

It is my understanding that you now have no reason to withhold your permission for Myself and our DD to leave the United Kingdom on a permanent basis when required. Can you please sign the permission document that my lawyer sent your lawyer on 28 November 2005. This document needs to be witnessed, and signed by both of us. Can you bring the signed document with you on Wednesday 7th December - your next visit with DD

Can you also please acknowledge receiving this document by return email. On Wednesday 7th December we will both sign below to recognise that we are both in agreement to the above.

I've had no response from XWBF to my email which details our agreement with regard to DD and contact etc. I did ask him to acknowledge receipt of this email and did phone him on Monday to let him know that it was there! He said we would talk later.

He is coming to see DD tonight, so will nail him down then!

NZ,

hurray i finally got back on! good luck tonight. i will keep my fingers crossed for you!

Carolyn

Since you have not received a quick response I suppose he may be having his attorney draw up a counter-proposal. I hope not and he just agrees to your proposal but I saw that he was requesting visitation in England (or wherever he ends up) and thought you could offer the following:


You may also consider allowing or proposing a solo trip at a younger age from New Zealand to Australia as it is a shorter trip (I don't know at what age an airline will allow a child to travel alone but if you have friends or family there you could travel together and allow child to go off with X-BF). This trips purpose would be to allow x-BF to take child to meet child's grandparents that I presume live in Australia and facilitate that relationship. Heck, maybe this is the only thing you need to propose annually or bi-annually as x-bf visits family and friends there over holidays or on occasion. At least in Australia x-bf would have other family (also related to child) to assist him with developing a family bond.

These are things you may have already discussed or considered. I am just anticipating a counter-counter proposal.

Mr. Wondering

NZGirl,

In all of this, let's say down the road 20 years, if your daughter were to read the 'papers' going back and forth... how would she feel? How would you explain your actions?

My parents got divoriced right after I was born. I recently got ahold of the papers, and well...my mom is not in my good graces. I'm terribly disappointed with her actions during the divorice. And the decisions that followed.

Are you leaving the country to try and force your hand against your WBF relationship? I'm really confused by the whole boyfriend thing, but, will just leave that alone. I know we each have our own reasons for things. But, if he was just a boyfriend, wouldn't you expect for him to have a relationship with someone else down the road? And also, do you believe he should get some say in who you date down the road, since you have custody of his daughter? I'm just guessing you have issue with him picking out your next boyfriend, much less him getting to choose the times when you get to see him. (Which is what you are doing by attempting to control his contact times.)

You may have every good reason in the world for returning to Australia. I'm not arguing that, I'm just asking, are you leaving to sabotage his relationship? If so, I think it is a mistake. That relationship is doomed to fail, by your own accounts, the OW is a trouble maker. So far, in the marriage sense, your boyfriend has really done nothing that shouldn't be expected from a guy that was unwilling to commit to marriage, and yet wanted to have sex with you. (admittedly, once again, I don't know your whole story.)

However, is he a good father? Is he trying to be a good father? (I know it doesn't appear that way, but, for me, the not being married seriously affects how this plays out...

The real point...just try and be sure why you are making those decisions, and that they really are for your daughter, and not for yourself.

hang in there.

Hi all and thanks for your input. I am returning to NZ to offer a better quality of life for DD and Myself. I came to the UK to travel and for work opportunities and have never had the intention of staying forever. XWBF and I if still together would have been returing to Australia in the next couple of years to live, we never intended to stay here forever either. I am alone in the UK with NO family, they are all on the other side of the world. My main priority is DD, I am working in the UK to provide a solid financial base for us in the future. When we do leave the UK we are going for the right reasons, it is not vindicitive.

I have offered for XWBF parents (DD grandparents) the opportunity to visit DD in NZ when we are there, so I am not cutting them off from DD.

Re partners, we have made the joint decision about introduction of partners to DD, this is based on the advice we received from a psychotherapist which is aimed at what would be best for DD at her current age. Things may change in the future. Right now DD needs to bond with her father and needs to have the least amount of disruption to her life as possible.

I also want to point out that we came to agreement to these issues together on Sunday. It was one of the few conversations I have had with XWBF that was focussed on the issues and what is best for DD.

XWBF came to see DD last night. He didn't bring the legal consent form with him because he couldn't find it. Said he looked everywhere but couldn't find a it. I gave him another copy last night to sign and to get witnessed. He also hasn't signed the items we have agreed on for future contact, said it will all be done this Sunday. I sense he is stalling for some reason, not sure why.

He mentioned he may come over tonight to see DD. Going to let me know later today.

I am not surprised that the cat and mouse game has started. I was a bit surprised at the speed your attorney acted and the reactions of XBF attorneys. Now it will all be stall and wait, delay and dominate.

A good attorney will never accept a first offer. No matter how good or fair it is. Negotiations and debate are what attorneys thrive on.

Now – what you have to think is how you can get your goals through. Here are several suggestions that you should ask your attorney about:

Can you deny XBF access to DD until he signs?

Can you demand financial compensation from XBF if he does not sign before certain deadline?

If your attorney has written all the letters and filled all the forms can you leave at a certain date with or without XBF approval? The law expects XBF to take a stance. Inaction is not a stance.

Since the courts of NZ are recognized by the courts of UK can you have the issue moved to a NZ court? A possibility is to have the case filed there right now. That way a UK judge can rule that the issue is in due process by a recognized court. Not as if you are fleeing.

Ask your attorney what would happen if you got the NZ passport for DD tomorrow and just leave right away. Without telling anyone. Will you be turned back or stopped in immigration?

NZ – these are all issues YOU do not decide by yourself. These are all issues to ask your attorney. Another issue: Next time XWBF comes to see DD try to record or tape his conversation. Make sure you have proof of what he says and that he has the consent form.