Yeah, I thought of you when I saw the Boston incident report. I am glad it was not you.

You are doing great and saying the right thing.

When are you going to expose to OMW?

Now, I would suggest you wait until after Christmas since it's only two day away. But be sure to do it soon though.

As for MIL, she is not reliable as you know. But you can continue to be cordial to her without expecting anything from her. Keep FIL on your side if you can. In any case, remember that blood is thicker than....

As for WW’s comments about your attorney, she is just trying to intimidate you. Don't give in to it. Just document everything and get all the proof you can about her A and let your attorney do his job. I think you will be in a strong position legally, especially if you can get the requisite proofs.

I will keep you in my prayers.

Thanks uva.

I once was a WS I know how she is feeling b/c I filed for D with my first W. I was torn and I wanted it as easy as possible and my first W did not fight me on anything, plus we had nothing no property, children etc... Having a home, child is alot diffrent. I know WW still loves me somewhere inside of her. It seems as time went on being seperated we started to communicate not as much, but I believe I did push her by trying to talk to her about the M, however that hockey game on NoV 2 2005 did not help are sitch very munch nor did me emailing the girl to yahoo who happen to know my WW all I wanted to do is have some companionship and talk to a women so I could pick her brain. WW took as I was trying to hook up with her, WW did get jealous. Boy they have double standards. I would love to attract WW back to the light but its looking pretty difficult. I will continue to fight smarter and I do appreciate all the advice i can get.

WW has made contact with me again, she called and asked me the usuall whats up I said not much just playing with DD. WW asked to talk to DD and I let her. She was talking and DD told her we were making chocalate chip cookies and then DD said the OM name. the reason she said it is b/c a little boy where she goes for child care has a simialar name. Not a big deal, she then told DD let me talk to Daddy.
WW asked me if the cookies were the instant kind I said yes and she asked why didn't you make them from scratch, I replied I don't have the ingridients. WW then went on to say she has alot to do tonight, I asked how work was going and she said you know the same I just want to get out of here. I asked if she needed any help tonight she said no, and I said ok. I ended the conversation.

I noticed she has been making alot of contact with me, actually she initiates it. I sure haven't it is starting to bother me talking to her. I just don't want to anymore its like go on with your life and leave me alone. I don't get my hopes up even though she is intiating the contact.

I will call her later and ask if she would like to join DD and I for dinner, we might even go to a movie.

Any advice is great.

ive been a bit selfish by not asking you walkingthefield and uva how your sitch is doing. Please forgive me for being selfish.

FG,

After reading some of you other posts I agree with UVA about the MIL. Be courteous but don't relie on her as an important ally. Your FIL will be a much more staunch supporter for you. He'll support you through actions, Not just words.

The "I'll pay half" and then renig and blame you thing. It's Standard Operating Procedure for WS's. I wouldn't let this one get to you. It's for DD and we know that she's worth it (But don't forget to journal it, You HAVE been keeping it up haven't you?).

Get used to the contact with WW. No matter the ultimate outcome of the struggle to save your M you will always be tied to her through DD.

The attitude that YOU choose to engage with her in will determine how many of the contacts in the future go. Me? I'd stick to plan A.

How are the plans going for the weekend? Are you still going to watch DD open gifts?

Stay Strong!

BTW: I will be signing off the boards later this afternoon. I woun't be back until Tuesday at the earliest. I just wanted to Wish you and yours a Merry Christmas. I hope you have a joyous and peaceful holiday!

Thanks WTF you always lift me up. You must be gifted.

Yes its still a go to watch DD open up her gifts on christmas.

WW sure doesn't like it when I don't answer my phone or return her text messages. She gets angry and sometimes I just don't feel like talking but she sure can ignore me when I call. ( I wonder why ).

WW called me and asked if I could get DD a lite brite. I said I would.

Question when I dont answer the phone or respond to her text messages do you think im LB?

I will continue with my plan A. But Im getting a bit wore out. I will give her my best this christmas.

I did get her a gift, its a saphire pendent the birthstone of our DD, its also mine b/c DD and I share the same birthday. My greatest birthday gift I have ever received.

Merry Christmas and thank you for all your support.

Hi FM,

I don't have a sitch...yet. Hopefully, never. I am happily married.

As to what you said above, I think you should be nice to WW whenever you get the chance. That is Plan A. You want to meet all the needs she allows you to meet. Calling you and talking to you is obviously a need for her—that you can meet—so continue to do so. If she wants you to do something for DD, do it. Be pleasant and loving to her whenever you get the chance.

You need a good Plan A, so that when you go into Plan B, which I would suggest you do after the final custody hearing, she remembers that you are a good man and that you are someone she would want to return with (if she ever gets out of the fog.)

Thus, to answer your question above, it is very good to keep talking to her. As long as you are not being a doormat, meeting her needs whenever you can is conducive to saving your M.

I know that you Love Bank is running lower and lower, but since you don’t seem close to being depleted yet, I strongly recommend you stay in Plan A with her.

Have a merry Christmas!!!

P.s. When are you going to expose to OMW?

Wake and Realtor,

Have a merry Christmas too!!!

Well i talked to WW on christmas eve a couple of times and one phone call she hung up on me b/c she told me she was going to get DD home by 9:00pm and i text her and she never replied. I then called her and I asked if she was leaving to go to her apt so DD could go to bed and she said why are you rushing me. I told Im not rushing her and she went into her speach and when I went to tell her what my reason for wanting DD home she hung up. I called her back and left her a voice message to be careful and to call me when she gets home. WW called me and told me they where on the way home and she would call me when they get home. WW did call me when they got home. I talked to DD and told her to get some sleep b/c santa was coming. I told her to leave milk, cookies and carots out for Santa and hie Rein Deer.

I made it to WW apt at 7:30 she made coffee and DD got up at 8:00am DD was excited and yeld out, Santa ate the cookies! and drank the milk and his deer ate all the carots but one.

DD opened her presents and WW took pictures and I did video. It was great she had a blast. WW then gave me a gift from DD it was a new suit it was awesome. I gave her the gift from DD which was a precious moment and then I gave her the second gift which was from me and DD. WW opened it and loved it. I got her a squire Sapphire pendent with 3 diamonds on top which is both mine and DD birth stone. I noticed her eyes watered for a second and then she said I love it and this is somthing I would of bought myself. So I did good and she said I did good.

WW made her deviled eggs for her family brunch and while me and DD played with toys. WW asked me if I needed more coffe and got it for me. WW told me to come back to her apt after I take DD to my Moms house, she even asked me not to go, however I told my Mother I would be their b/c she has gifts for DD. I offered WW if she would like to come and she said no I replied ok. Prior to leaving WW apt she asked me if I was taking DD to her Mothers I said I was not invited and she said I don't want you to go but its for DD and don't act like an [censored] over there and don't talk to my dad in the corner about me having an A. I think she wanted me to be there.

I made it to the MIL and her mom gave me a kiss and her Dad shook my hand. WW gave her father a hug and told him she loved him. I don't see that often they have had a bad relationship over the years.

I was having trouble with my cell and WW asked me to take care of it later and I said yes. She asked me as if we were a normal couple. DD opened gifts and it was great she got so much this year. My 3yr old is going to be busy.

DD is taking her nap their and before we left WW and I had a cigrette together we don't smoke just on occasion. it was nice smoking with her like the old days. I did start to get emotional but I never let her see it. WW was playing with a baby doll that DD got and that was emotional it brought back memories when DD was an infant, I made eye contact with her and she smiled at me a couple of times.

On my way out I told WW I need to get DD black leather shoes for her new dress and she was suprised I got Dd a dress. I said after I pick DD up from MIL I would get the shoes and she was like why would you do that and drag DD out in this. Its rainning here and I said its not a big deal and she seemed upset.

I made it home and she called me and said why do you have a power struggle with me. I said I don't and she explained her side of why it would be easier for me to pick the shoes up while she is sleeping and it would save me about a half hour of travel time I told her your right so after I talked to my dad I picked the shoes up. I got a little suspicious b/c I feared she is going to make contact with OM. I picked the shoes up and while in her apt I noticed the box with the pendent I bought was open like she was looking at it as soon as she got home. I told her she has always been my priorty and I told her get some rest honey and she said ok.

I do get to go back over her apt to put toys and train sets together so I will put on my happy face and be the best I can be. I might even offer her a foot massage.

I got home and broke down all the overwhelming feelings I had and looking that this could be my last christmas as a family really hit home. I prayed to god to touch her and help her find her way home and to stop this D.

I have to run everyone have a Merry Christmas.

Sounds like it was a good Plan A Christmas. You did great.

I just have one question (again). When do you plan to expose to OMW?

I am not saying to do it right now. I just want to know what your plan on that front is.

While at my Mothers I called her to let her know we made it but she did not answer about 20 mins later she called me and told me she was taking a bath thats why she didn't answer. We talked about are gifts and I used a little sarcastic humor with her I said I loved the suit and i said what are you going to bury me in it we laughed and she replied if I would of said that you would of gotten mad I said no. Somthing I have been working on not being so sensitive. WW told me she loved the pendent and said you know what to get me in the future, white gold, sapphires with diamonds. I was shocked she said such a thing. I told her I would be back over in a little while.

I did return to WW apt after I went to my Mothers. I played with DD for about 4yrs WW joined in during this time by playing and watching us. We watched a christmas story and a few times WW said she was hungry and I asked her if she would like me to get her somthing to eat she said no and that she is hungry but she has been eating junk all day.

I started to massage WW feet and i asked her where the foot lotion was and she said its ok you can massage them through my socks. I said no I like using the lotion she told me it was in her bathroom closet in her bedroom, and she said you can get it. This bedroom and bathroom of hers has been an of limits to me during this entire seperation. I was shocked she allowed me to go in there. I did get it and massaged her feet on the couch. WW even asked me to crack one of her toes. WW has always liked when I cracked her toes. I was meeting her EN and she allowed me.

WW then went into her bedroom and she started to play on the computer with her digital camera I started to massage her shoulders and she allowed me to do it for a few seconds. WW then said I don't feel like having my shoulders rubbed. I told her I was putting the lotion on the table and she said you can put it back so I did.

I even layed on her bed which again I was suprised I was allowed to. I did not follower her around the apt I gave her her space. I told her the 3 of us can sleep in her bed she said we can't fit. I was kind of testing the water plus I was tired. I really didn't want to drive home. She said I had to get up to early.

Prior to leaving she was holding DD I gave DD my kiss good bye and I then hugged them both and she said your hurting me I do have a tendencie to hug a little hard. I left and I felt pretty good but a bit apprehensive.

I do want to expose OM to his W however I have to get his address. I have to do this soon.

This is how walk way was after the second exposure it took me a while to draw her to me, its like when there is no other man she lets me in slow. I just have to make sure she isn't seeing anyone if i want to save this M. I will see what tomorrow brings and hopefully this just wasn't a Christmas thing but My WW is still there somewhere inside if this WW.

I just lost my last post and it was long GRRR!!!!!

Yesterday I picked DD up from MIL and on her way out she asked about her new trains that are at WW apt.

I called WW to let her know I picked DD up and told her about the trains and WW suggested we come over after she did her running around.

I called WW about 2 1/2 hours later and got her voice mail. I told her we were going out to get battries and to give us a call since we were out. WW called back in a pissy mood why do you keep calling etc... I told you I would call you when i get home. I told her it was getting late and just wanted to let her know we were out. WW says I have to go to the gym so you can bring her over but you two have to be in the apt. WW then says why do you want to bring her over anyways all her new toys are there duh. WW actually asked DD if she wanted to come over on the phone and DD said no. WW tells me she probably never even asked to come over I told her you cant let a 3yr old make a decision like this. What is she thinking. So I simply told her if you don't want us over just say so. She gets madder and replies she can come over and spend the night. I said im taking her tonight. I got frustrated and told her we don'y have to come over and ended the call.

I get a text about five mins later bring her over I don't have to go to the gym tonight. I bring her over and we began to play.

I told WW if she would open up to me that all this pain and hurt will be lifted and we can make it better. WW replies I dont hurt Im just really angry and i dont want to talk to you. I did let my ego get in the way and told her what about the other night with OM how do you explain that and she got angry and didnt want to talk about it. I noticed when i talk to her she can barly look me in the eyes. Constantly looking away.

We continued to play and DD began playing by herself while me and WW finished are game of Candy land. WW said maybe next year DD you will get monopoly and I told WW we have it at the house. I said to WW we should play it sometime and she said yes sure.

We brought WW some food and she didn't want it she told me maybe your trying to poison me with arsnic. I said you really think that and she replied yes Im scared of you. I told her I am aver gentle compassionate man and you know that about me. WW paused for a few seconds and said its your personality and I told here Im sorry you feel that way about me. Such nonsense.

WW was sitting on the couch and I held her hand for a minute and she then pulled away. I asked if I could touch her hand again and she allowed me too. Prior to leaving I was holding DD at the door and she gave DD a kiss and hug, WW then put her head on my chest and said big hug. On the way out she did the big hug again and WW kissed DD I kissed walk away on the chhek and I asked for a kiss WW kissed me on the cheek.

Does this sound like a person living in fear of her husband?? Im confused.

WW asked for me to call her when she got home so she knows we made it and she will sleep better. Suspicious.

WW called me b/c I forgot to and Dd was in the bath she talk to DD and DD tod I don't want to talk to you, she is only 3 so her mind is moving pretty fast.

Today I sent WW a funny text like I use to and she called me back don't send me text like this and why since you were ridicoulos last night. That batted me into a argument I just could not help it. I never raised my voice or called her names like she did with me and called me crazy just move on and why did you use DD against me in your D papers etc... I told her I dont do D and that is what lawyers are for and I only do M. I told her to open up to me and to stop being dishonest about OM.

I did tell her there is more to come and she took it as a threat I should be wacked 2*4. You just get frustrated and can't help yourself sometimes.

WW then threatened me she was going to go to the deputy chief and asked if I like the unit I worked for. I told her go ahead I don't care if I get put back on the street. Im a police officer.

WW then tells me I think you like OM more that I do and that is all that concern you and the M is over with so it doesn't matter what I do. I told her our DD does not have to be exposed to this OM with his child and of course she replies he's a friend and its no diffrent if so and so come over with there child. I reminded her what about that thursday night the two of you were together in your apt with the lights off. She wont respond but only with you beleive what you want. She then hung up.

WW sent me the folloeing text "U use DD as a pawn. U need 2 b hospitalized and getting worse" I did not reply to it.
" I dont appreciate your threats of future BS. Ctinue 2 justify my hate 4 U" I did not respond. I have a career, baby and life. I don't want U. Y do U insist on pushing yourself on me? I did not respond. She wont buge on anything I will continue my plan A. I don't have much left in me but I will continue.

I do get sad and it hurts when she acts like this how can she ever realize the devistation and hurt she is causing to people? She just wants me to runaway but i won't b/c I committed to my M and family.

I would like some advice.

Now that she is no longer that nice anymore, please expose to OMW ASAP. That is what I would focus on if I were you.

Try not to get into arguments with her. They are pointless.

It's after Christmas, Have you exposed to OMW yet? The longer you wait the less effective it may become. As I mentioned before I suspect the OMW already knows something is going on. It may be a relief to her to know that she not "crazy".

If you expose to OMW it will put GREAT pressure on OM. He might very well choose to not continue with the affair. After all, what will his peers think of him running around on his pregnant, soon to deliver wife? The TRUTH is your greatest weapon. Truth / Exposure kill A's. A's flourish in deception, dishonesty, not allowing the truth to be seen.

DO NOT be a part of enabling this behavior by not telling OMW. Kill the affair, then you can start rebuilding your M.



Did you possibly interrupt a "play date" with OM? She's probably a little peeved out that.



She can't look you in the eyes because even though she denies it vehimately she knows the truth about what she is doing and is ashamed of herself. Look at her actions. Don't trust the words.



She's NOT scared of you. She's scared to face the truth about what shes done.



Excellent! A good plan a ending.



You shouldn't be. She's not afraid of you, She's afraid to face the truth. Think about this. WW & OM's actions are possibly going to break up two families with small children. I'd be afraid to face that!



Remember, She wants to be "SuperMom" for all appearances.



Your human. It may be a small step back. This happens, don't let it get you down. Keep moving forward using Plan A.



Excellent! Keep to the Mantra!



Whoops! Step backwards. Your human and this happens sometimes. Keep to plan A. To be perfectly honest there is no way a WS would NOT take that statement as an implied threat and react the way WW did.

MY mantra is in my signature line. It's also hard to do when upset. Give it a try anyway. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />



FOG BABBLE. Give it all the consideration it is due.



Ask her when the D was finalized. Until the final decree you are Husband and Wife. Do not accept anything less that full respect of that fact. DO NOT give up Hope! Fight for this M until the final decree! She can stop this D at any time up until the Final decree if you both decide to reconsile.



Good Job! She's trying to bait you into an arguement. Don't let her. She's hoping that you'll give in and make the D easy for her.



Pure unadulterated FOG BABBLE. Give it all the consideration it is due.



Bullseye!! And believe me you have much more left than you know. Remember the prize if you get through this. Restored Love, Restored Family, Restored Repest. It is a goal worth fighting for! Give it everything you've got!



Of course you do. It is heartbreaking to see the ones you love putting themselfs and their family through the pain. She wants you to make it easy for her to walk away. Don't give in. Remember the prize when you get through this!

Im feeling down today. I want to plan A my butt off, but how do I when we have limited contact.

Not to much to report since yesterday. My WW called me at about 5:10 pm yesterday and I missed her call, so i called her back around 6:30 and I said I seen you called and she asked where DD yellow bird is a toy she got for Christmas and she knew it was at my house. WW then went on to tell me she bought her a red and blue bird I said thats cool I bet she likes them. WW then told me her Mother was over. I talked to her for a minute and asked her to have DD call me before she goes to bed. I don't know why she called me to find out about this toy bird.

WW called me and DD told me she wanted to come over and I told her I would see her tomorrow. I told WW to have a good night.

I text WW in the morning saying good morning girls. She did not respond. My question is if Im plan A do i make contact or should I only do it when she makes contact.

I caled and left a voice message to WW to see if they went to the zoo with MIL and FIL and how they where doing she text me back "we R fine". WW returned my call and told me she was getting her ready to go to the zoo. I asked how DD was and she said fine. I told her to have a good day.

I called walk again to see how the zoo went and she did not answer so I left a voice message. WW returned the call and said DD had fun and DD called her from the zoo. I asked WW if she worked out and she said yes. I asked her if she ran and she said I did cartio. I said good. WW then says if you know i worked out then why are you asking me. I replied I asked if you worked out and she seemed to get pissy and ended the call.

WW called me at 4:50pm and told me DD is up from her nap and when am I coming to get her I said I should be there by 5:30 6:00pm> WW goes she should just stay with me and your only going to see her for a few hours. I said I want her to be with me and I told you i was taking her today and tomorrow. WW then says your only taking her so you can tell your lawyer you have her more than me. I replied I don't do D I only do M and she says yea I know so F***U and telss me not to come and hangs up.

What is this anger what do I do how can I plan A a monster.

Some advice please

Since she has already left the home she basicly decides when you get to do Plan A stuff. It kinda sucks but you need to be patient about this and take the opportunities as they present themselves. You are very fortunate in one respect, considering that you are in different households and working different shifts you do get a good deal of interaction with her because of DD.



I would make my priority to do it when she contacs you. Don't invent reasons to contact her. That gets us dangerously close to the "Doormat Zone". She will not respect you if she thinks you are getting desperate.



You do it the same way to plan A a WW. I kind of expected to see this happen. It's not unusual for the WS to pull closer to the family during XMAS. As you can probably guess there are a number of reasons for this. Once in a while they come home to stay. Usually after XMAS is over they back away and are more volitale than normal for the next week. Go figure. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

Stay Strong!

I went to WW apt to pick up DD and I was thinking about the motorcycle I bought back in june and the girl I emailed. What I was thinking is this hurt my WW feelings, So when I got inside her apt I told WW that I was sorry for not taking her feelings into consideration when I bought the bike and emailed the girl from yahoo ( who happened to know WW what where the odds of that ) WW paused for about 2 mins and said if you would of considered my feelings alot of this would not of happened and I listened and said im sorry.

I then told WW if she would open up to me we can rebuild this M and there will be some bumps. WW replied I know you will just throw thing in my face. I explained to her there will be a level of recovery and things will have to be discussed and she replied I have already told you what happened. I wish I was there when she did.

WW then asked me if my attorney new her attorney and why mine put what he did in the paperwork. I explained to her I don't do D attorneys do and im about M. WW seemed a bit pissed at this and replied I do D Not M and how do you like it. I did not reply and said I do M.

I then through this out there D is costly and we can stop this what do you think if we stop it and give ourselves untill jan 2007 and if your not in love with me then or happy we will D. I did tell her I understand she doesn't love me now but she can get that love back with some time and effort.

WW said what about the six months and look what happen at the hockey game I ended up with a black eye and bloody nose. I replied that will never happen again and I have learned alot about needs and I understand why you would be conserned about that. I did swallow my ego and pride.

I explained to her that I apologize for not meeting her needs and she replied its not just about me and you its about family and friends. I wanted you to be more social. I siad if I would of known that was important to you I would of been more social and she replied its not about you being funny just more social. I again sollwed my pride and ego. I am very social, I have no idea what she is talking about, Im a person who is reserved until I get to know you and what I can say or do when i meet you. I feel people out first. Maybe thats what shes talking about.

I told her look at how are family has grown refering to DD. I said we have to think of her and WW replied thats why I tell you to focus on her not me. Go figure. I do focus on DD but my M is the priorty.

WW also told me how I never stood up to my family refering to my Mother. She says this b/c My mother is cold and never calls. WW is upset with my mother b/c while preagnant she never came around. Little does WW know i did discus this with my mother and went up to bat for her. I didn't get to get it out b/c she was done talking about it. I told her im here for her and when your ready we can talk she replied when you act normal we can talk. Im so normal and fighting for a M.

We where playing with DD and I took WW hand and held it for about 30 secs and she looked at me and said HMMM. I said I just wanted to hold your hand.

WW started to crack DD toes and I tried to crack WW toes and she said I don't think the are going to but I said just relax and I got a couple to crack. I then put my hand on her thigh and rubbed it along with her shin for sometime. She allowed me to. I also asked how she was feeling her lower back hurts during her cycle so I rubbed her back a little. She allowed me to touch her.

WW walked me and DD out and I helped with taking her garbage out. I stopped WW in the parking lot and hugged her and kissed her on the forehead. I asked her to think about what i said and she said ok. Prior to leaving she asked me did you tell Jessica about the fight at the hockey game (This was the girls phone number that was in my phone and started the fight at the hockey game) I said no I never talked to her except at the salon when I got my haircut. I explained to her we only had a conversation at that time and she asked how old she was and said if you slept with her i don't care. I said I did not and Im a married man. WW replied you make it sound like sleeping with her is a bad thing. I said it would be a bad thing b/c Im married. WW then says I don't want to talk about it.

Do I sense WW is a bit jealous and trying to see if I did somthing to justify her actions.

I have noticed I have no trust with her and im very guarded. I do get hopes up when she shows a bit of light at the end of the tunnel, however I never know what tomorrow brings and that makes me nervous b/c I emotions get screwed with.

I asked WW if she wanted me to call her so she could say good night to DD and she said no you do that just to talk to me. I said ok have a good night. and we left.

WW called me an hour later and said I was worried about DD and if she is ok. I sai dshe is fine playing with her interactive T.V. game. I could tell WW was in the bathroom and I asked what are you doing she said clipping her toe nails. I said oh I would done that for you and even shaved your legs. Iv done that in the past for her. WW replied ok.

I get two things from this call, 1. Was she suprised I didn't call her and she wanted to talk to me? 2. is she getting ready to go out and do somthing? I get a bit suspicious at times. I did tell her if she would like to call and say good night to DD we will be here. I told her to have a good night.

I wonder if some reality is hitting her b/c we have a court date on jan 3 and feb 16.

any advice would be great.

Thanks for responding walkingthefield and UVA.

S

I think you are doing great. She is noticing that you are a nice guy, and she is allowing you to meet some of her ENs. Keep doing this whenever you get the chance.

BTW, have you been documenting your time with DD? That will be important in court.

Further, is the A still going on? Have you been snooping? If not, why not? You have to proceed at different levels at the same time here.

But today sounds like it was a good day.

UVA I have been documenting all my time with DD.

I have not been snooping and I think she might be watching me. I have to be careful and I will think of somthing.

Im not sure if the A is still going on. But I noticed her letting me in closer and if I recall when she wasn't seeing anyone before this is how she was acting.

I do have to level my self and not let my hopes get high. My emotions are like a yoyo and I want to only take it for what its worth nothing more nothing less.

I pray to god we can stop this and work on our M by going into recovery.

I will stand strong and take all the advice from MB and its members.