HI SC,


H said the same thing about 'group' so he agreed to do a 1:1 counseling with a male Dr., specializing in SA. He said it was the BEST thing he'd done, he felt SO MUCH better afterwards and had HOPE that he could deal with this. Best $150/hr we spent.


He's wrong and he knows it! If it were just willpower we would not be having this discussion in the first place. He's proven over and over that he cannot control it with willpower. Dr.Phil's weight loss books speak to willpower in great detail. It does not work, or everyone would be skinny! You have to set up a 'Supportive Environment' meaning removing all the junk food from the home and avoiding triggers to bad eating. You have to provide substitutions to the porn/eating... replace one bad habit with another Good habit. Willpower is never enough.


No, you have to do it. If he's the one with the password he can just turn it off when he likes. It's not a deterrent if he has the password.


He's starting to get it.


One of the first things my H's IC said in a session with me is "IT'S VERY HARD TO GIVE UP SOMETHING PLEASURABLE" That's why willpower does not work.


He's already admitted to doing it when he really didn’t want to. It's a compulsion at this point. That hasn’t sunk in with him, yet.


Get him to agree to go if he cannot deal with this himself. He'll mess up, then he'll agree to go.


I’d be straight forward: why is this time any different? You’ve promised over and over, nothing has worked. WHY am I supposed to believe you now. He should be able to answer you.


Fine, let him be stunned.


Need to be more specific, here. He’ll tell you within 6 hours, for example. SHMI’s H didn’t ‘tell her’ because he knew she’d get the cable bill with the porn so he figured it was the same. One month afterwards and being busted by a cable bill does not count. He’ll come talk to you (when? immediately? w/I one hr?). And just talking to you isn’t enough, he needs a hobby, something else to do in the middle of the night when he gets the urge.


But the walls aren’t all bad. He’s not giving you much reason to trust or respect him, feeling withdrawn is a perfectly natural reaction that is telling YOU something It’s telling you that your marriage is in serious trouble. You are hearing this message and it bothers you. That’s good


Again, especially since he’s fighting the counseling, please go buy the SA books and ask him to read them. They will do you good, too, I promise. They speak to the co-dependence and the W’s need to ‘fix’ and ‘be his supply’… and all sorts of issues you’ve probably not considered yet.

Last night was a start. YOU do the key logger, both of you read the books. He may not need counseling, my H only went a few times, but they had a tremendous affect on him. (We mainly used the SA books and then MC). Hang in there, it’s a tough road. Please take care - Dru

Dru,
Thanks for taking the time to check back and comment on my conversation wtih Mr. Cookie. We talked again last night and I'm pretty discouraged.

He said he did a little reading on the internet the previous night (not sure which sites). I suppose that's a good sign, but ya' know what he zeroed in on? Two "articles" if you will. One -- the debate over whether habitual porn use is a true addiction. Two -- Using Zen techniques to overcome the urge when it hits (variation on willpower, IMO). With regard to the addiction debate, he said, "They had examples of guys who've used porn heavily for many, many years and still lead perfectly normal, productive lives." Also something about it being different than a chemical addiction.
<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

So you see, he still doesn't get it.



Yeah, well, he won't even go back to our MC WHO ALREADY KNOWS ABOUT HIS PORN PROBLEM. We were in MC for about two months. Male counselor. We both like him. We got to a point where Mr. Cookie thought he had everything all figured out and the MC couldn't tell him anything more... so I have continued IC with the same guy.



I agree that he's wrong. But I really DON'T think he knows it. However, I may have made a tiny bit of headway on this issue last night.. reminding him that the last three times we've confronted his porn use, he believed -- in the moment -- that he had hit rock bottom and never, ever wanted to go through all this again. And each and every time, willpower failed him, and failed him rather quickly --BECAUSE HE NEVER ADDRESSED THE ROOT OF THE PROBLEM.

Okay -- I will install the keylogger. Guess I should probably start checking the cable bill too, huh?


Yup.



Yup.





Agreed. In fact, the reason I specifically asked for your input is that I read the stuff you posted on EN's about a woman trying to 'be her husband's supply', and it dawned on me that I might have been doing that on some level without even knowing it. And that I really need to educate myself.

Thanks again, Dru. I must tell you that I admire your spunk. I read what you wrote awhile back about getting frustrated with people who create big messes and wallow in them... something like... "I just want to tell them to sit down and shut up, and let me fix this." It made me laugh. I thought, "If I ever win the lottery, I'm going to recruit that woman to be my 'life manager'". <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Smartcookie,
check out recoverynation.com-online lesson plans for both the SA and his partner-pretty good stuff, if he wants to work on it he will have no excuses. Its free, and he can hide his real identity.

I'm sorry that your VDay was spent discussing an old, sore subject. We spent ours not discussing much at all. I kind of avoided him, he acts as if nothing is wrong and I couldn't handle that.

(((((((SC))))))))

He's grasping for straws with the 'no harm' article. Nix those arguments in the bud, immediately. The issue isnt that some men may live normal lives immerserd in porn, the issues is SmartCookie is disgusted with it, and Mr. SmartCookie said he could stop because he doesnt want to hurt SmartCookie any longer. You're not debating the validity of porn, your debating whether the conditions in you marriage are acceptable for your continued participation.

And since he SAID he could stop with no problem, none of his articles supporting porn are relevent. Articles condoning porn use have no connection with your marriage. Ask him to stick with the articles on stopping the porn, since that is the matter at hand... Ask him why he'd look for supporting literature when the issue of him stopping had already been agreed upon. Ask him if he's saying that now he WONT stop. You want him firm in his position.


Well, you cant force him, but I'd make that conditional, too. Agree to him not going AS LONG AS ____________ and you come up with a few important things to you. Be sure to stress that since the marriage has already experienced so much troulble that you worry that if things get worse it could deteriorate very quickly w/o MC. That your just worried for the marriage, etc.

For anything he does not want to agree to, make a deal about what conditions upon which he'll agree to change his mind. This keeps the door open for you. 'I wont go to MC'. 'Will you go if you dont stop this on your own?' 'ok'...



You know, it's not either. IC said we could guess for years at theories as to why this particular bad habit stuck with H as opposed to anything else. It's extremely pleasurable and easy to access - you really dont need to super-shrink to get that. It's more a matter of behaviorial modification and stress management. Why's not the issue... the issue is making a plan and a commitment to change a lifestyle habit.



Forget the root... alot of alcoholics know why they drink. Knowing isnt half the battle, here.


I hated doing this but it does provide peace of mind for awhile. It's also a sure way to break up his normal routine... he'll have to work harder to get it if he wants it, which hopefully will make him realize how much time and efforts he's putting into this. Either he wont miss it or he will, both are good. The more he misses he, the more he'll start thinking about it as a problem.


The books were really helpful. Like a crash course in SA... the knowledge is powerful. One questionaire finally got through to my H. One of those checklist on 'do you really have a problem' - he said he answered many more than the expected.

And forget the word 'addiction' for awhile. It freaks them out... now it's a 'problem in our marriage'... My H will now swear up an down that there was no other way to describe it other than an addiction... (even your H admitted to doing it when he really didnt want to). But early on, the word addiction just made him dig in his heals. I didnt care what you called it, I just knew it was effed-up and unacceptable.


You make me blush <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> Good luck on the lotto <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> - Dru

SA -- Thanks for the info on the web site. I'll check it out.

NTT -- I know what you mean. Mr. Cookie has been all cheerful the last couple of days. Not that I want to see him in pain and struggling all the time. Not at all. But I just get the impression he wants to sweep the tough stuff under the rug.

Another helpful post Dru....

On some level, he may be using that "porn isn't a REAL addiction" article to justify continued use. But I think the main point he's trying to make right now is that, if it's not an addiction, he doesn't need counseling. Whatever. You're right. I don't want to get bogged down in semantics. "Addiction"... "Habit"... "Problem"... doesn't matter, as long as we're dealing with it.


We have an agreement now that the next slip-up means counseling. That's the exact same agreement we had last time. I'm letting him off the hook now, but I won't next time.



Well, I don't know. Hmmmm. While it's true that I have a habit of over-analyzing things, I think Mr. Cookie has a habit of trying to gloss over things. Even my affair. Would it change your opinion at all to know that he also drinks every day and gambles?

The drinking varies in amount. Anywhere from 2-4 beers/glasses of wine a night during the week to 3-7 on the weekends. That's a rough estimate. I really don't count. But it's rare for him to go a day without some. Awhile back, he decided he wasn't going to drink during the week anymore. That didn't last long. Before you knew it, the Fri-Sun definition of 'weekend' started including Thurs. Then it was just one glass of wine with dinner Mon-Wed... and eventually he was right back where he started.

The gambling is also one of those things that seems to fluxuate up and down. It has never caused any financial problems. Not even close as far as I can tell. It's mostly very small bets on horse racing and sports on the internet. His parents used to take him to the track when he was a kid, so this goes way back. In and of itself, I REALLY don't think it's a big deal at all. But viewed in context with everything else.... ???

It all suggests to me that one way or another, he'll find a way to escape/numb himself rather than deal, feel, or be emotionally intimate with me.

And just to add more stew to the pot -- I'm an addict to. My addiction is a little harder to define. And one could also argue that it's "not a 'real' addiction". It's an addiction to.... adrenaline? activites that are forbidden or have an element of danger? I'm still not 100% clear, but that's the jist of it. And the most common way for me to get my fix thus far in my life is through flirting, lust, male attention... all leading up to the ultimate rush... my affair. That's what I'm working on in couseling right now -- finding healthier outlets for my need for excitement.

Which leads me to...


To be honest, I'm feeling pretty apathetic about the marriage right now. It could be just a temporary 'cooling off' period after this latest setback. I don't know.

Today, my counselor told me that the survival rate for marriages in which both spouses have an addiction is only one in four. Not very encouraging news.
<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

--SC

Hey SC,

Hang in there. All is not lost. It is just the ebb and flow. Both of you are finding out about things that you need to know and ultimately need to know how to take care of each other.

Still praying for you both.

I'm no expert on recovery (we're 3-1/2 months past D-Day - and that was only a partial admission at that - and maybe finally on the verge of NC), but from everything I've read here and elsewhere the first 6 months to 1 year of recovery are very bumpy.

I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing to have periods of apathy or dealing with negative emotions. I think it's more important what you do with - do you acknowledge them and work through them, or get stuck in them? Yes, it can be hard to work through them, but I think the end result is worth the effort.

I don't know whether Mr. Cookie can kick his porn habit or not without help. It certainly sounds like he is having problems, and maybe using porn and other things to escape some of the current situation. I think your boundary is a good one, especially if it has consequences.

You said something earlier about asking him to leave if he doesn't seek help if he can't kick it. Be prepared to back that up if you need to. It may be the only thing that finally sinks in. For me, when we started MC after MP told me of the affair, the effect my voyeurism had on her quickly came out (like the first session). Within a week I realized what that did to her, and the consequent effect it had on her feelings for me and her self, and I was devestated. That was impetus enough for me to drop the fascination. Am I cured? I'd like to think so. Do I trust myself to not fall back into it? Not at all. But I do have motivation not to.

Hang in there SC. I think most people on these forums will agree that problems in marriages have usually been around for a long time, and they are not easily fixed, especially when the marriage is poised to either recover, or not. Focus on what you can do, and do it. Remember, you and Mr. Cookie have gone through a lot, and have been doing a wonderful job. Keep chipping away.


Look at it as a challenge. You and Mr. Cookie can show the world how good and committed you are by beating the odds and proving the skeptics wrong. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Thanks for the pep-talk Bird.

Unfortuanately, I'm not dealing with this very well. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

I think part of the problem is that we had an especially busy week last week, so after discovering his slip-up on Sunday night, we didn't have much time alone together for several days.

By the time the weekend rolled around, I was feeling like we were back at square one. After spending the last several weeks warming up to him, I felt cold an empty again.

We had our ususal Friday night dinner together after putting the kids to bed, but it was more akward than it has been in the last few weeks. When we went to bed, he initiated SF. I complied, but it was awful for me, and I cried afterward. And then he felt terrible. I didn't sleep very well and he probably didn't either.

On Saturday, we were cooped up in the house with the kids most of the day. We were both a little moody... kids had cabin fever... etc. I was also very tired and by late evening, I was frazzled. I went upstairs to lie down for a bit and collect myself, and ended up falling asleep. So, we didn't get any alone time on Saturday night either.

I know all is not lost WOL, and that setbacks are to be expected. But it sure does "stink" doesn't it? I feel like I did all that work and followed the program to the best of my ability -- even though I didn't want to -- and now I have no motivation to start all over again. Very discouraging.I don't WANT to feel this way. It was a lot more fun to enjoy being around my H again. I also know I probably sound like a brat (especially to all you BS's who've been fighting the fog for weeks and months). But I'm being honest.

On the positive side, I noticed he's been checking out more web sites on the topic of porn addiction... and even copied one of the articles supporting the idea that it IS an addiction to his new file. I suppose that's progress.

--SC

SC,

You said
Actually, I think you do want to feel this way. You can hide behind what your H did and not face things. Sounds harsh doesn't it? But, let me ask you when you withdrew from him this week, you did not mind at all did you? SC, if your H was just a friend and he messed up something, would you forgive him? If he was remorseful would you forgive him? If he was on a diet would you encourage him?

If you did enjoy being around your H again, and it was fun, why are you not having fun now? These are YOUR choices not his. You control this not him.

Your H is struggling with an addiction and he will fall off from time to time. But, if he is making progress and he is being encouraged and YES watched, he can make this. You want to know how I know this? He loved you enough to fight for this marriage when you had hurt him in the worst way, and told him you had NEVER loved him. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> The good news for you is that you have never had someone you loved tell you that or do that. The bad news is you are not realizing what it took to do what he has done.

If you did or do finally realize this, I think you would KNOW that this man has it in him to break this addiction especially with your help and encouragement. He is apparently looking at sites for help even now, and yet all week and this weekend what encouragement did he get from you? Not much from the sound of it.

You have some decisions to make and one of them is: are you his W and friend or not? If you are you have work to do and you will quit finding excuses to not do the work. If you are not, then the man is on his own completely and totally...how sad.

Please think about this.

God Bless,

JL

Interesting perspective JL,


Yeah, this is a blast. A real barrel of laughs. I'm enjoying it a lot <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />.


Yes. But by the fifth time around, I'd be looking for a little more effort than "I'm sorry... again." While I was shutting down all week, that's all I had to go on. That -- and an article he found on the internet arguing that there's no such thing as a porn addiction. The additional effort/research didn't happen until this morning. I'm not a robot, JL. Can't just turn the emotions on and off again. "Oh look, he did a little more reading. Guess I can open myself back up again. All better." Doesn't work that way.


Because I'm scared!!!!! (Dang it! I'm so sick of crying over this crap and here I go again!)


I wonder... if he were here asking for advice about my addiction (OM) would you give him the same advice?



How do you know?


Well, then that's my fault for leaving out parts of the story in which I have tried to encourage him -- no yelling, no demands, no tears, no judgements, no shame. Statements like: "We WILL get through this." "We'll work this out, together." "You don't need to be embarrassed about this around me... I don't see it as shameful or dirty or different from any other addiction." Hugs. Finally gave him the valentines gift I just didn't have the... whatever... will, I guess, to give him on the actual day.


I don't think I'm making excuses. I'm still here, still doing the work, but it's overwhelming.

--SC

SC,

I think it is overwhelming because you feel you are in this alone. Have you asked him for help? Have you talked to him about how you need some good times with him, and his support?

I'm not indicting you, SC. You really don't understand how proud I am of you and all you have done. You truely don't understand how much of an impact you have made here and with me. And I guess that is the problem isn't it? You don't realize the impact you have, do, and can have on your H.

You may not realize this but rebuilding a marriage does not require that you change who you are because clearly your H thinks you are very good. He could have voted with his feet, and he did not. All rebuilding a marriage requires is changing perspective, you are very likely making an impact.

Oh, and by the way, if your H tries to feed you that nonsense that porn is not an addiction, then ask him why he cannot give it up. Why it is so challenging for him? Human's can become addicted to pretty much anything. Heck, some of those poor fools out there become addicted to running. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> Can you imagine that? Addicted to endorphins, who would have thought? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> But, a running addiction and ruin a marriage as well, even if it is done under the guise of good health.

SC, have faith in yourself, we know you are strong and we ALL know you are a very good person. We are working on the focus and the perspective, hence my comments to you earlier.

You can do this, and I think he can beat this, but he does have to admit it is a problem. Further, he needs to understand why it is a problem to you. Think about this last statement and come back and try out on us various ways of expressing it to him. You know us guys, we are sometimes pretty thick and defensive. You need to paint a clear picture and then slip in under his defenses.

You asked
If I understand your question correctly, the answer is yes. Here it is referred to as the roller coaster, but yes WS do relapse and the BS is encouraged to "hang in there" and keep plan A'ing or B'ing. And yes to do now LB's even if acts of physical violence are dancing in their heads at the moment.

SD, you also said What are you scared of SC? You need to address that and we can help you there.

Must go.

God Bless,

JL

JL,
Just wanted you to know that I've read (and re-read several times) what you wrote in those last two posts. I don't even know what to say anymore. But you made some good points, and now that I'm past the initial defensiveness (so often my first reaction) I'm giving it all some deeper thought. Thanks.
--SC

SC, did you see this ?? <<<+++++ CLICK THERE

{{SC}} i know this is very hard stuff!! but it really can work. love ya

SC,

Please understand one thing, I have no intention of hurting you, and if something I have has hurt you, you need to let me know. I may or may not withdraw it, but I sure will apologize and try to better explain myself.

SC, you are doing better than you realize, have faith in yourself and your H. I think you will be rewarded far more than you can imagine right now.

FL??? you rascal. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> You are still hanging around. Good for you, keep your own counsel for awhile, but do drop in and say Hi! every now and then. You will be missed you know. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

God Bless,

JL

JL, i have no idea what you are talking about, i am not still here!!! i'm a figment of your imagination, that's all.

SC, come to think of it, for all the times i have said such nice things about JL, there have been these times that he .... not sure how exactly to word it....

but i remember this one time... something about how my story was the worst example of ?? something, i forget the exact details now <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> remember JL??

Nope I don't recall. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

It is cool channeling with the ghost of FL. Never thought I would have that experience. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Good night Ghost.

JL

"I was walking with a ghost
And I said please, please don't insist..."
(White Stripes, Dec. 2005)

You guys know it? Probably not, huh? You really need to expand your repertoire of contemporary music. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

sorry don't know it. but then again, lately my music has either been 100% christian music or the music from Seussical The Musical, oh yeah and a bit of Wicked thrown in there too.

I know this, JL. But thank you for saying it anyway. Bottom line is, the truth hurts sometimes. Especially this....


This ruffled my feathers, not because I was being falsely accused, but because it's true. In many ways, it is more comfortable for me to withdraw. It feels "safer". And right or wrong, it's what I need to do right now to protect myself. I'm not saying I will stay in this place. But I'm not going to push myself to open up as far and as fast as I did before. It basically backfired. And I think it made this setback worse than it otherwise would have been.

This comment did bug me...



The first part of it is fine, and something I probably needed to hear. But that last sentence is manipulative. A blatant attempt to send me on a guilt trip, IMO. Sorry, but I'm not getting on that bus. He is NOT alone. He has his parents, six brothers and sisters, and friends. And if I died tomorrow, he would find support elsewhere (or not, his choice) and his life would go on. I can offer him support, but I am not responsible for pulling him out of this mess. I've got just about all I can handle cleaning up my own mess right now.


Well... the good times are coming. We have some fun plans this weekend. But as for any productive discussions about the problem at hand, I don't think they're going to happen.
I have already explained very clearly how it affects me. He says he understands, and I believe he does. So there's no point in beating that dead horse. And as for his efforts to kick the habit, he says he doesn't want to talk about it with me, just wants to handle it on his own. He's humiliated -- was physically cringing during our very brief talk last night.

A bit of a catch-22 isn't it? Talking about it makes him throw up his defenses because it's too uncomfortable for him. But not knowing what kind of progress, if any, he's making in understanding and dealing with it prompts me to keep my defenses up.

--SC

(Ghost, thanks for making sure I saw that. I'm thinking about the email thing.)