Dear EndlessHorizon,

My H is reading a book called Wild at Heart (Discovering the secret of a mans soul), by John Eldredge. I am reading the book as well, just to get to know his inner male soul better.

As I read I was surprised to find out why men view pornography, even some Christian men. Not that it is right, but there has something that has gone seriously wrong with your manhood...okay. I am not being critical here.

In Wild at Heart John Eldridge invites men to recover thier masculine heart, defined in the image of God. And he invites women to discover the secret of a man's soul and delight in the strength and wildness men were created to offer.

Here are a few exerpts from the book....

--Why is pornography the number one snare for men? He longs

for the beauty, but without his fierce and passionate heart

he cannot find her or win her or keep her. Though he is

powerfully drawn to the woman, he doesn not know how to

fight for her or even that he is to fight for her.

Rather, he finds her mostly a mystery that he knows he

cannot solve and so at a soul level he keeps his distance.

And privately, secretly he turns to the imitation. What

makes pornography so addictive is that more than anything

else in a lost man's life, it makes him feel like a man

without ever requiring a thing of him. The less a guy

feels like a real man in the presence of a real woman, the

more vulnerable he is to porn.

--Why is pornography the most addictive thing in the

universe? Certainly there's the fact that a man is

visually wired, that pictures and images arouse men much

more than they do women. But the deeper reason is because

the suductive beauty reaches down inside and touches your

deepest hunger for validation as a man you didn't even know

you had, touches it like nothing else most men have ever

experienced.

If he can feel like the hero sexually, well, then mister,

he's the hero. Pornography is so seductive because what is

a wounded, famished man to think when there are literally

hundreds of beauties willing to give themselves to him? (of

course, it's not just to him, but when he's alone with the

photos, it feels likes it's just for him).

It's unbelievable how many movies center around this lie?

Get the beauty, win her, bed her, and you are the man.

You're a stud.

USING HER
Most men want the maiden without any sort of cost to

themselves. They want all the joys of the beauty without

any of the woes of battle. This is the sinister nature of

pornography--enjoying women at her expense. Pornography

is what happens when a man insisits on being energized by a

woman he uses her to get a feeling that he is a man. It is

a false strenth as I've said, because it depends on an

outside source rather than emanating from deep within his

center. And it is the paragon of selfishness. He offers

nothing and takes everything.

EndlessHorizon,

I would hope you get this book. You can get it at your local library. This is a battle you have, and you know it. And this book will show you how to fight like a man!

Best Regards,
Lady

Okay it's my time to laugh! LOL <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Once again, maybe you should tell my wife to stop plugging the videos in! I certainly don't want her fighting like a man, I might get a black eye!

Please reread my posts on topic to understand my stance.

Oh, I hope you typed those "excerpts" out by hand, and that they weren't direct quotes from the book taken from the webpage, because there's spelling errors!

I more than feel like a man! In fact, I'm more energized than I have been in years. Again, all my responses to your post have been answered elsewhere.

What's the difference between your (4) and my (2)? Is it not the same thing?

Yes, of course.

It is just a linear combination of option (1) and option (2). With option (1) the W would bear the cost of the difference of their sex drive, in option (2) the H would bear the cost, and with a combination as you suggest both would share the cost. In other words, each would not be completely happy, but would not be as unhappy as in (1) or (2). Yes, it makes sense.

But is this average of option (1) and (2) better than option (3)? In option (3) each partner is operating on the sexual level at which the partner is most comfortable.

And again, I really am not an insensitive jerk; am really trying to understand your viewpoint.

Thanks!

Endless,

Cut LadySheep some slack. She and her H are finding help in this book - don't make fun of it.

You have every right to do as you and your wife see fit. But, please, don't slam someone who took all that time to retype something because she thought it could help you.

I know you don't see this, but a number of us are concerned for you and your attitudes. It's how I felt trying to get my best friend to see how foolish her affair was. She wouldn't even stop to consider anything but it.

And you know, women can also get addicted to porn.

Well, you know my stand and I know yours. I'll give over my strap now.....

Cut LadySheep some slack.
SLA-It's okay. We have a womanizer here....hardly a man!

And you know, women can also get addicted to porn.
Yes unfortunately, satan went after Eve first...then Adam ate. He didn't protect her, he didn't fight for her. That's what I mean by hardly a man!

Do not correct not a scoffer, lest you get a blemish.

Oh....It also mentions in this book that men hate to be found imposters.

Lady

SLA,

I would highly recommend the book Captivating (Unveiling the mystery of a Womans Soul) by John and Staci Eldrigde
(same author as Wild at Heart).

It's very good, and may help bring much healing to you!

A short paragraph from this book....

If you will listen carefully to any womans story, you will

hear a theme: the assault on her heart. It might be as in

the stories of physical, verbal, or sexual abuse. Or it

might be more subtle, the indifference of a world that

cares nothing for her but uses her until she is drained.

Forty years of being neglected damages a womans heart too,

dear friends. Either way the wounds continue to come long

after we have "grown up," but the seem to speak the same

message. Our question is answered again and again

throughout our lives, the message driven home into our

hearts like a stake.

Huggs and prayers,
Lady

LadySheep, thank you so much for that book title. It sounds so close to how I feel. I wasn't until I discovered the porn that I realized how neglected I've been (and found protection in that neglecting).

I'll need to go out and buy it soon. I'd heard of Wild At Heart, and longed to have my husband read it. I knew what would happen - I'd buy and he'd never pick it up. I never even dreamed they would have written something for a women's perspective....

Thanks again.

Hummmm. That's an interesting question about your option #3.

You may want to check out a thread by SmartCookie. Mortarman faces a dilema such as you are describing.

But I have to ask this. What if there wasn't any porn? Or better yet, what if you couldn't access any for some reason? What would a man do?

I think porn has become the easy out for men. Men get caught in the belief that they want it more, and since communication is not usually a strong attribute in men, they just go about life fixing the problem as easily as they can. Most seem to see no correlation between their fantasy world and their every day world. But they do affect each other. Many times in subtle ways, other times like what happened to AskMe or to me even.

Arrgghhh. I can't seem to put into words exactly what I'm thinking. I hope someone more eloquent can chime in. Go check out what Mortarman said on SmartCookie's thread.

Oh, usually, when the man spends 10 minutes a week on the porn, his wife/girlfriend isn't aware of it - or if she is, isn't really happy about it. So that right there is a damage to the relationship......

AverageGuy - Your question seems sincere, so I'll take stab at providing a possible answer for you.

THE issue is "Marital Unfaithfulness." Obviously we all tend to agree (and think of) that Adultery is "marital unfaithfulness." We have "expanded" the idea of an "Affair" to encompass both "Physical" and "Emotional." Both ARE forms of adultery.

That is the "idea" behind "looking at a woman with lust in your heart." Looking at an attractive woman (or man if a woman is the active person) is NORMAL. It "crosses the line" into "sin" when we "dwell on it," start "fantasizing" about a relationship or sex, etc..

But "Marital Unfaithfulness" also encompasses, imho, other thing too. Physical and Mental abuse are also "grounds" for divorce based on "marital unfaithfulness."

The issue with Porn is simple. Users of Porn bring it into there lives with the "pronouncement" that it's "normal" and "okay" and "harmless." They can "control it" just like any sort of "addictive" drug.

EndlessHorizons tries to "split hairs" and "walk the fine line," and maybe he can do the "balancing act" for a long time. But it begins with a false premise. It is NOT okay to bring anyone or anything into the marriage that is NOT just your spouse. One of the "vows" that most people take includes something along the lines of "forsaking all others and keeping myself only unto you, until death do us part."

The "forsaking" is a promise and commitment of "exclusivity." "I am taking myself voluntarily 'off the market.'" And then we begin to rationalize....."if it's not PHYSICAL adultery....it's not adultery and it's just to satisfy my 'needs'."

The "only unto you" becomes "only until I feel like I need 'something more,' and then I'm justified in seeking something outside of the marriage and you have no right to say I'm doing anything wrong."

It's kind of like the justifications that Wayward Spouse's make and the "adjustments" that they make in their marital vows..."Until death do us part" becomes "until I no longer have tingly 'in-love' feelings and want some excitement from some 'strange'."

Biblically speaking (I know it's not germaine if someone is not a Christian), Christ has given His "approval" for divorce for "marital unfaithfulness." When a man and woman wed, they voluntarily "give up" (or should) some rights apertaining to being "single." They are NO LONGER a "law unto themselves," able to do what they want without concern for their spouse. They willingly (or should) take on the role and responsibility of being each other's "servant," putting their spouse's needs ahead of their own. Being "willing to die" for our spouse does NOT mean just literally die in her stead (as in taking a bullet meant for her). It means willing to "die to selfishness" and to put the good of the marriage and our spouse AHEAD of our own desires and pursuits.

And that brings us to your "scenarios" about the "Act of Love" in a marriage.

Surprise!!! Very few couples on the same level of sexual desire. Men in particular are (particularly when they are younger) at a much higher "pitch" due to the wonderful hormone called Testosterone. It has the same effect on women, as those who have undergone Testosterone therapy have found out.

But the "level of desire" is NOT the issue. LOVE is the issue. If all anyone is interested in is "performance," I would submit that is NOT love. Men and women also "look" at the sex act differently. For most men, making love with their wife is how the "show" their love for their wife. Mentally, men "equate" the sex act with HOW they show their wife that they love them. They can be "all business" at work and at home, but in the bedroom, that's when they "show how much they love their wife."

Women tend to view it differently. They tend to see the "Act of Marriage," the sex act, as a "natural extension" of how they show love and feel loved. It is the "end result" of all of their OTHER emotional needs being met that SHOWS the love. That's why in Affairs, the thing that bothers women the most (usually) is the idea of the "emotional connection," i.e., "did you love her?" For men, the harder part is the sex act itself. It's why the "mental movies" are usually harder on men than on women, because men EQUATE the sex with how one shows "love."

So what's a couple with divergent sex drives to do? Remain faithful to their vows. TALK. Yes, I know, it's very hard for most men, myself included, to talk about our feelings. We'd rather "show it" by our actions (the Sex Act). We don't understand women and unless we are willing to learn, as women also need to learn about men, we can easily get frustrated and start thinking those thoughts that can lead to "rationalizing" an affair or a divorce.

"We're just not compatable."
"We never should have gotten married in the first place." (May be true as in "don't be unevenly yoked," but one married, we are "committed," as the saying goes.)
"He/She just doesn't understand me."
"Look, aren't I 'owed' some pleasure in my life?"
"It's just a One Night Stand, it doesn't mean anything."
"It's just Pornography, it's harmless and it IS stimulating, especially to the male eye."
"Etcetera, etcetera, etcetera."

Then there's the whole "Polyamory" crowd that DOES believe more than one wife or husband is the "way to go." Suffice it to say that they, by definition, do NOT believe there is anything wrong in more than ONE husband and ONE wife in a marriage, much less the vicarious addition of "Porn Actors and Actresses."

So, where will the current rationalizations and beliefs lead us?

Someone said on another thread that "they are not their brother's keeper." Seems like that "excuse" was used a very long time ago....and it didn't hold much water then either.

God bless.

Reading some of the responses on this thread has made me very sad for some of the posters. One in particular. What is so sad is that some people come here looking for help with their relationship, yet are so set in their ways that they won't even try to see a point of view that offers help and hope. If what they are doing is working so well in their relationship, why are they here?

I went back and read endlesshorizon's original post. His wife was involved in a cyber relationship. An interesting fact is that they started playing the game together - an innocent game, right? Before long something that had started out innocently turned into something different- something that cut endlesshorizon to the quick.

Makes you think doesn't it?

I have a feeling if you took a poll on the MB site, you would find that more people believe - and probably because they saw it in their relationship- that porn is more dangerous to a relationship than games.

I shared this on another thread, but I will share it again. My FWH and I would watch porn sometimes. We visted porn sites on the internet. We read the erotic stories. We brought fantasy into our relationship and not just about each other. I started participating in this in an effort to boost my desire for SF. It helped, but there was always a level of guilt associated with it.

Because we had already introduced other people into our relationship via porn and fantasy, I think it made it easier for him to take that step into 'the other side' and have SF with the OW. After all, we had talked about SF with numerous other people.

Since D-Day, we no longet visit any site, watch movies or discuss fantasies of others.

You probably think our SF has dimenished. Wrong! The desire has increased tremendously. For most of our marriage, My FWH's desire has been much stronger than mine. That is no longer the case. I think the difference is our attitude and mind set. It is a mutual thing. Focusing on meeting one another's needs has been huge. Him meeting my need for affection increases my desire for SF and helps me to meet that need for him.

I must say that the last five months of SF with only the two of us in the bed, car, etc <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> have been some of the greatest in 24 years of SF.

I do not think that the use of porn did anything to enhance our marriage. I honestly believe if you polled the members, I would not be in the minority.

AverageGuy, I don’t think you’re an insensitive jerk (you don’t seem like one and you seem sincere <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />), so I’m totally okay with trying to explain my POV to you again:

With regards to you question above: In yesterday’s post to you, I’ve actually already suggested another option to replace your option (3) above. Here it is for you to read again:

Actually, the above option can be used in combination with, as you’ve called it, “the average of option (1) and (2)” and which I call [/i]”compromising and POJA about the frequency of sex where partners have different sex drives”. So, as you can see, my option above actually[/i] replaces[/i] your option (3) of porn use and “mental adultery” – which is NOT an option & solution IMO. Porn use and/or fantasizing about other people (whether it’s the porn/magazine woman; the lady walking down the street or the lady next door!) IS “mental adultery” and therefore takes emotionally energy away from the marriage partner and from the M. It also dishonor and disrespect the M and S.

I’m talking of personal experience here… As I’ve said in my first post, I was involved in "mental betrayal" myself (obsessive thoughts/feelings and fantasies about XOM) so I KNOW how much damage it can cause... As I’ve said, it damaged my self-respect; spiritual and emotional life; my religious life and my personal relationship with the Lord. It damaged my M and took emotional energy away from my H and M – with my behavior I’ve put up a wall between me and my H. Again, it’s something I will forever regret… And as I’ve said in my first post, I still “fight” the fight and don’t want to be controlled by my weaknesses and sinful nature again.

I want to make it clear that the reason I’m against porn (or any other form of mental and/or emotional betrayal) Is NOT because I think I’m perfect or on a “moral high ground” or something…no... I’m against it because firstly it’s against my Christian beliefs, and secondly because I’ve burned my fingers with mental betrayal & adultery myself and I now realize that ANY activity (even if it is just in the thoughts) that betrays the partner and involves a third party; takes emotional energy away from the M and putting up a wall between H and W is extremely dangerous and damaging to a M. IMO, many people (even posters on this board) are just too “casual” and ignorant about this… <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Well Horizon, you’ve said that you don’t have time to answer my post because “you have other things to do”, and then you continue posting to other posters on this thread… Very interesting! Well, the fact that you don’t want to respond to my post and questions speak VOLUMES and show me that you don’t have any argument or any more rationalizations & justifications to come up with for your behavior and ridiculous believes about porn and “mental betrayal”! Anyway, since you’ve said you would LOVE to reply to my post but don't have time, then please do so as soon as you can find “the time” in you busy schedule! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> You can take your time…I will try to be patient! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

NS: I really hope you will follow ladysheep’s advice and get that book Horizon… The fact that you make “jokes” about her sincere post to you and the part she have quoted from that book, tells be that you have a serious problem and needs help…

And since you’ve talked about moral ambiguities: You know Horizon, you seem like a good person who DO have morals, but you seem to throw the moral issue out of the window and ignore it as soon as it doesn’t suit you or contradict a certain behavior of yours… Actually you're arguing very much like a WS in a “fog” who wants to rationalize and justify wrong behavior… I was there myself, so that’s why I can see it in you…

Dear SolostAgain… I know what you’re talking about. I experience this myself (the “whispering in the ear”) and I've even experienced it during the times I was wayward, in the “fog” and have tried to come up with justifications & rationalizations. And you know what? The “voice in my ear” always seemed to be much stronger than my own “internal voice” of rationalizations & justifications, but I’ve CHOSEN to ignore that voice and not to listen to it…

It’s a GOOD thing to have that “whispering in your ear” SoLost…it shows that the “voice” of God and the Holy Spirit is working within you. It’s also your sense about right and wrong, your value system and your conscience talking to you… ALWAYS listen to that "voice" my friend! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

You see, the problem is, if a person is on the wrong path and ignore that “voice” for too long and/or try to talk it away with rationalizations and justifications…then eventually that small little "voice” will completely disappear. That’s part of the reason why WS’s become involved in A’s and sometimes takes so long to come out of the “fog”…because it takes time to start taking notice of that small little “voice” again…

Ladysheep, ForeverHers & moveforward…I want to thank you very much for your contributions to this thread... I hope you will continue to voice your opinions on here. It seems many people are struggling with this porn issue and your contributions are really helpful.

Blessings,
Suzet

"You know Horizon, you seem like a good person who DO have morals, but you seem to throw the moral issue out of the window and ignore it as soon as it doesn’t suit you or contradict a certain behavior of yours… "

• Yes, that's the benefit of not following a god... I do things because I like to do them, I also realize that others do things for the same reasons. No exceptions. My ethics run broad and deep, and there's no simple black and white to them. That's the point of living, I think. I do what I feel is right.
  
  I'll consider getting around to your post. While I did post to others after your post, they were of little consideration and brevity. I would not argue with you in that way, a response to you would not be said carelessly.

You are asking a question. Or actually a bunch of questions. I will answer them.

I will answer it as I see it. Please do NOT think of this as justification, or defense, but as an answer that a guy who uses porn would answer it. Do NOT think of me as an insensitive jerk who is trying to convince you that somehow porn is OK, but as someone who is trying to let you see it from a guy’s point of view.

Guys simply do NOT think of porn as you say. Guys simply do not think of it as cheating, or as an indication of being unhappy with their wives. One has NOTHING to do with the other. A guy may use porn and be satisfied with SF with his W, OR he may use porn and be unsatisfied, OR he may not use porn and be satisfied, OR he may not use porn and be unsatisfied. Why? Because to a guy porn is NOT a substitute for sex. Porn (actually masturbation) is simply a way of releasing sexual tension. Yes, I understand that there are guys who use porn as a substitute for SF with W, but generally guys would usually prefer SF with W over porn.

I understand that this differentiation in guys’ heads between SF with W and porn use is really, really difficult for women to understand. But let me try to coach it in a different light: to a guy porn is a FANTASY about as romance novels or soap operas is a fantasy for women. Guys understand that women do not like porn, but to them a threat like: “if you ever use porn, then I will divorce you!” sounds about as rational as a H’s threat to his W: “if you ever watch another soap opera, or ever read another romance novel, I will divorce you. I simply disapprove of you expending your romantic emotions on such garbage.”

You stated that you do not understand. Have I helped you understand it? Is there anything that confuses you about my explanation?

And I would submit that this is exactly why Christ pointed out that if you even Look at a woman with lust, you have already committed adultery with her.

Just because guys don't think of porn "that way," doesn't mean it isn't that way.....

I agree wholeheartedly with your comparison of porn to soap operas and romance novels. I have heard it said that they are 'porn for women.' If my husband were to tell me that soap operas were anathema to him, I would stop them immediately.

But then, I stopped them anyway because I had that "whispering in my ear." That took a long time for me to understand. A very long time. I didn't realize until I got married how badly romance novels and the like had skewed my perception of what a relationship should be.

Then again how many posts do we see that say
'help, my wife compares me to the men in her romance novels'
or
' My wife wants me to perform like the man in her novel'

How many children and adolescents are being sent messages about males that effect their long term relationships with men every time they walk into a newsagency and are comfronted with naked men?????

How many men are seeking cosmetic surgery to look like the men in the romance novel covers?

Although I dont disagree that any consistent indulgence in fantasy can possibly be harmful to a marriage (whether porn or romance novels. ) I find it difficult to compare the major issue of the degredation a half the popluation to a romance novel......

Personally I have never read a romance novel but all I know from my personal experience and what I see on the net is that many many women (and men) are being hurt by porn....Im not seeing the same evidence of detrimental effects of novels on marriages. ????

I find it very interesting that when you look at all posts for endless and average, that the majority of their posts are about porn and/or sex. Even in the threads that are not necessarily about porn/sex, those subjects still come up in their posts. I am certain that is just an accident and doesn't actually mean anything about them personally, especially concerning their obsession with sexual things.