BS putting up with so much from a long term repeat WS. Obviously gets your goat.

BR:

As is typical, I'm in total agreement with you- about the importance and value of self-discovery and growth as well.

I may not have communicated this....

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

OK, Mimi...again, fair enough.

You points are well taken and I am hopeful that "newbies" in this will get the guidance they need to tell apart a "personal opinion view" and one that is "MB approved".

Lem <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Well, my friend, you know me well enough that I am sure you know what my opinion would be on your situation, but you will most likely see that I have probably never communicated those feelings or opinions to you on these boards.....well, at least NOT lately.

In my own self discovery and recovery, I have finally "learned" that what is good for ME...may not necessarily be good for "you".

For the record, I don't judge you for doing what you are doing (i.e LTA with multiple false reocoveries and lies). Yes, ****I ***** would never do what you have done, but that doesn't make it right or wrong. Just different. I don't have to live with the consequences of your decisions (whether good or bad, so they don't really get my "goat" in reality).

There are ***some*** people that may publically or secretely argue that I am a "loser" because my "recovery" plan did not include the successful recovery of my marriage. That's actually ok with me now, I am now more comfortable with the decisions that I made and the consequcnes that followed (divorce).

There was a time that someone here once intimated that my views or opinions should be essentially discarded because I did not save my marriage, and that my "track record" spoke for itself. At the time, that was kind of hurtful...BUT now, it doesn't bother me in the least. It is all in the "recovery" man.

It is your life, and I just hope that you can say the same for yourself today. Sounds like you can, so it is all good,right?

Lem <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Lemon:

I sincerely think that this thread that you started has resulted in valuable discussion.

I don't want this to be about our differing viewpoints...

However, if you will, answer this question for me so I can make sure that I am not reading this wrong...

Were you being sincere are sarcastic in this statement?



I know I misinterpret your remarks or at least seem to interpret them differently than others....

Mimi,

I know that I have been/am very sarcastic. That's just me. You and I have had several differing view points in the past.

However, I sincerely understand your need to want to point out to "newbies" (who do not understand the makeup here and are trying to find out how to use the plans for recovering their marriage)the "MB view" on things. Sometimes, differing opinions will some off as sarcastic or mean, that is the limitation of this board.

For the record, I was not being sarcastic with this comment to you. Newbies who are trying to figure this out for themselves should have an advocate or way to help them discern the "official" principle view from those that may not necessarily fit with the principles. You are that advocate I believe, and that is a great thing.

I may have taken your post when you said that this did not "fit with MB principles" to personally, but everything is still "all good" here.

Hope this clears it up.

Lem <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

LM:

Thanks for clearing this up for me!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Hey LM,

That was me, and I meant it only in reference to the newbie on that particular thread. I'm sorry that was hurtful to you. The truth is more times than not I agree with your opinion, but I think you are an acquired taste, Like Good Champagne.

I do not, nor have I ever thought you were a loser. I think you're real, and I appreciate that quite a bit.

Aphelion,

Ok, you said a few things that need to be address, shaking his head, but smiling.

Lemonman, stated that some thought he failed because his marriage ended in divorce. That is really not the case. And I would like to take your case as an example.

Let's go back for a moment. If you read Harley's articles or some of his books, his goal was NOT to save every marriage. His observation was that more could be saved IF people gave it a chance and approached it the right way. Hence this is NOT a marriage at all costs site. What it is , is a site where one is given tools to address issues in the marriage, evaluate their contributions to the marriage (good or bad), the contributions of their spouse (good or bad) and in the cold light of day with as little emotion as possible and even less "fog" decide if a marriage can be saved. This is coupled with a certain amount of effort, so that end the end, the marriage survives or is abandoned because BOTH spouses realize it is the best. Yes, he does say that even a divorce should be POJA'd. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> You said
Taking two years to see it all, and finally get a grip on things is a really good thing. You are not going to act or react on the spur of the moment but only after considerable consideration. You have done well "young grasshopper". Now start making decisions.


Yup, insight is a good thing and you have gained it.


Did you notice anyone standing around with a stop watch? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Of course not, it takes what it takes, it can be months, weeks, or years.


No it is NOT too long. Further, you are not stuck as you agreed to ATTEMPT recovery. You could not and did NOT promise that you would/will recover. Especially as more and more information keeps coming in.


Yes, and no. If your assessment is that your W is NOT going to address her issues, cannot avoid being self-absorbed, is not a woman you can trust, what good are you doing with staying for your children? It could be argued that you are allowing them to think that the behavior of your W as a constant taker is acceptable. That will either lead them to finding a woman like mom, or expecting to get away with what mom is doing. Neither of those things are in your children's best interest.

You have some big decisions to make Ap, but you staying might not be the best thing for you or the kids. Further, given her actions the odds are probably good you will end up with them eventually. So examine what is going on today in your marriage, discuss the future with your W, set your boundaries and be assured that making the right decision will turn out right for you.

Those are my thoughts on the matter.

God Bless,

JL

PS: Just remember Lemonman is/was NOT a failure. MB does not guarentee that the marriage will survive, it just offers a way to better recover or assess whether the marriage can be saved.

Appy, this makes me very sad for you. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> Care to expand or discuss more?

Very true! Appy just because it took you two years to come to some conclusions does not make you "stuck". I struggle with this too, Ap. I don't want my kids to come from a broken home ...but as JL so sagely said to me, I don't have to buy a house without a roof. It is much harder to leave when children are involved. {{Aphelion}}

My xh lives for admiration...or should I say...WORSHIP...he demands he is NEVER questioned in anything or in his judgements...(*which are usually damn well off base)...

That is why he had the affair marriage with a woman much younger and more naive...and yes! quite stupid! and why he is shagging a 21 year old btw.

I think some have such an ego already Peachy, that when you add admiration to it, it really spins out-of-control.

I agree.

To me and to some here, I feel that increased doses of admiration could cause a side effect...

well known as...

ENTITLEMENT!

I agree with showing admiration, IF there is anything to admire. Some WS's have an affair and seem to be able to continue doing some things for the family. A lot of them do NOTHING.

My WH did NOTHING, and no, I'm not exaggerating. It has been 3 years now. He has given me $50. in 3 years to "help" with bills and the cost of our home. He has spent probably a total of 3 hours talking to me - mostly denying that he was living with OW.

I did tell him that he used to be a good man the last time I spoke with him. He was going on and on about what a miserable mess he has made of his life. I did give him credit for the man he used to be.

Just Peachy:

Have you read HIS NEEDS/HER NEEDS.

Harley talks about the importance of ADMIRATION to men especially men with low self-esteem..

Just to help out with future relationships...if you are interested, you might find it to be helpful..

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

*shrug*

I learned that it wasn't my job to disrespectfully judge my husband.

If healthy appropriate admiration on my part causes entitlement....thats NOT my job to fix.

My job is to be the best wife I can be. And if my husband is toxic to me, its my job to get out, instead of hanging around trying to fix him by witholding ENs.

I SOOO agree with you again.

Plus, I think it's an erroneous assumption that WITHHOLDING ENS is a fix for entitlement...

Hmmmm...Withholding ENS..sounds like an expression of anger to me...

And, of course, I'm a believer in BOLD LOVE....battling EVIL with KINDNESS...

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

BrambleRose, this is such an important point. It took me ages to realise that it wasn't my job to fix anyone - I'd grown up believing that everyone else's feelings were my responsibility, and that if people felt bad, it was my job to 're-engineer' them so they didn't.

Letting go of that 'responsibility', and learning to deal with the fear of having no control over others' responses, was like being three stones lighter overnight!

TA

JL,

Very astute advice, as usual. I understand and agree. I make a few minor comments on what you wrote in what follows. I start at both ends of your post and work toward the middle.

“Just remember Lemonman is/was NOT a failure. MB does not guarantee that the marriage will survive, it just offers a way to better recover or assess whether the marriage can be saved.”

And,

“Lemonman, stated that some thought he failed because his marriage ended in divorce. That is really not the case.”

I agree completely. I think LM’s recovery is a raging success (pun intended). I want to be more like him when I grow up. I am serious. I think he got it dead right in his case.

But even LM forgave the first time and tried again. The difference between LM and me is I forgave and tried again three times now. I aspire to forgive seven times seventy, but I am having certain troubles with this third time. Not the forgiving. It’s been very, very difficult to forgive this time, but I do continue to work the process of forgiveness. No, it’s the letting down of my guard I have not been able to do this time. Remaing so detached, even if lovingly detached, is not good in the long run. So now I wonder if I am harming FWW by staying. For the first time in our M I am beginning to believe I should not be here for her sake.

There are tremendous and serious mental and physical issues FWW has had to deal with. I will not discuss her issues here. But I have always stood by her, tried my best to support her and love her. I have been as understanding as possible. I have always gone out of my way to act with love and meet her ENs. But it just has not been enough, apparently. Either I am inadequate to the task or she cannot accept love from me. Either way, I may actually be bad for her in some as yet undefined way.

For my part, I grew up with an alcoholic mother. I learned from an early age CA is the best way to interact with women. (But I am overcoming my CA tendencies with the help of Al Anon.) I also know affection is my top EN. It is almost my only EN. This is also a consequence of my alcoholic mother. I have lived on crumbs of affection my entire life. I have rolled over, wiggled my tail and sat up and begged too many times to count. I no longer want to settle. Time is running out. I want to be loved even if just once and for a moment.

I don’t yet know what these revelations imply I should stand up and do. I know FWW does not want a D. She is not even able to discuss it. She cried the few times I brought it up.

FWW is trying, I think. She is changing slowly. But there is so much for her to change, so much for her to overcome. No one can live a double life as she did for so long and not become their choices. I often get irritated when I read some equivalent of good people make bad choices. IMO if a person continues bad choices consistently for years and years there is something else at work. That good people / bad choice platitude needs to be tossed away.


Notable by its absence is a quote from my post you did not use in your reply to me:

“I still care about her. I still love her and acting love-is-a-verb is no trouble at all.”

In other words, I still want to do what is right, not just for me but for her. I married her for better or worse, in sickness and in health. To be frank, there is a huge component of sickness involved here. I still have to sort that part out. Maybe that will take me another two years, too. I just don’t know what comes next, right now.

Anyway, thank you for taking the time to reply to me. I am honored. I sometimes a feel a little sorry for myself and it leaks out here and there. I need to keep a better check on these feelings and not suck good people like you in.

With prayers,

LOL. “Young grasshopper” indeed. I bet I am older than you, JL.