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Any thoughts? Is this a nice response, considering all that has transpired in the last week?

Sure it is a nice response...not desparate or needy sounding and I am glad you left it short and sweet without some long diatribe about your relationship. You must keep doing these type things in Plan A without going overboard with "I love you's". However, even your stroke above was probably lost on a wayward spouse. Unfortunately, her reaction yesterday was likely nothing more than an eyeroll. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

Her email did not say she was proud of you which may have been a tad better. I think she was just trying to be nice to you out of guilt for the hurt she knows she's inflicting upon you. It may be an OK sign that at least she took notice of the nice phone call you made checking on her safe arrival at work. It was a reciprocal acknowledgement (not really appreciation) of your Plan A efforts, nothing more.

As you are coming to see, a WW is motivated by one thing... OM. Anything you do or say that enables or otherwise promotes or ignores her affair is encouraged, acknowledged and/or accepted whereas anything you say or do which seemingly attacks OM and the affair is met with hostility, disrespect and aggression. I forget the saying on MB but it's something like believe 50% of what you see a WS do and even less of what you hear a WS say. She's in the fog and you can either join her there and attempt to control her and the situation by trying to decipher everything she says or does OR you can ignore it and control only yourself and your actions REGARDLESS of the what WW says or does. This is your choice and one reason why the MB plan is so successful and healthy...you take control back of YOUR LIFE.


Any update or do things calm down during the workweek? Many a WS will escalate the conflict as the weekend approachs in order to manipulate time with OM (i.e.-they manufacture conflict in order to blame shift as to why they need to leave the house).

Mr. Wondering

Thanks for the response, Mr. Wondering. She went to look for places to live last night. She so "happily" described how they were somewhat nearby, still in DD6's school district.

She hasn't mentioned the LS thing for awhile, but I'm sure she's planning on it. We've had "nice day to day talks and email exchanges" but I think she is in the mindset of letting me down slowly. I'm wondering if I should just enthusiastically let her go, take the "pretty nice" deal with the LS, (obviously not what the children or I would want) let her move out, then go pitch dark. Let the A run it's miserable course, and improve upon myself.

I told her that I was going to go back to school at the major University I work at. (It'd be free!) She shed a few tears when I told her that. I told her that this whole thing will make me a better man, no matter what happens.

The thought of fighting for my kids, and forcing my Wife to file for D by not agreeing to an LS, comes with huge risks and financial implications, which in turn would hurt the kids even more.

On another note: I found an old "Pre-us" journal that my W had kept. It describes some unbelievable stuff with other relationships prior to our M. She had a BF who she claimed to "love so deeply" then, two days later, kissed 2 men out at a college party, and qualified it as a test for her and her BF. But then said about one of the "kissers" if it wasn't for BF, she'd "do him in a second".

All sorts of stuff like that in the 3 month journal. That was 15yrs. ago, but am wondering if those parts of her still exist, thus her A. Not sure I married the woman I thought I did!! But 11yrs. of a good relationship with her seems as though I did!!!

I'm babbling. I dred her leaving, if she leaves, but I am looking forward to trying something else. So conflicting, but isn't that the mindset of a BS?

Thanks, again!


BH(me)-46, FWW-43, DS-12, DD-14
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I'm wondering if I should just enthusiastically let her go, take the "pretty nice" deal with the LS, (obviously not what the children or I would want) let her move out, then go pitch dark. Let the A run it's miserable course, and improve upon myself.

Enabling behavior will feed the affair. In Plan A you are sending a strong message that you love your wife and are not willing to give her up. Especially if you have been neglectfull in the past. The message you will be delivering by playing nice is that you don't care. You can bet OM will get some mileage out of your cooperation by pouncing on your seeming "wimpiness". He'd never let WW leave because he "loooooves" her so much more than you.

Your WW is looking at apartments. Maybe you could trick her that you are willing to agree to a "fair" custody arrangement and get her to leave before its terms are finalized. Since you are trying to save your marriage this may be tricky to agree but not agree, however, if she leaves without an agreement then you are in the driver's seat as you can then request what you want as "reasonable" and even if she disagrees the court will later view her as walking out/abandoning the family which will be to your benefit. Like I said this is a little sketchy and tough to pull off without looking like an a$$. But if you don't put anything in writing and you haven't defined what's reasonable then who's to say your a liar.

The one thing you can count on is that WS's make horrible legal decisions. They are so far gone into their addiction that everything else matters not. Before any agreement she'll likely walk out after the next fight as soon as she's got an apartment. So another strategy is delay. Instead of discussing the LS agreement tell her to write one up and you'll have your attorney look it over. Drag your feet, blame it on the attorney and she may walk out at the first opportunity, albeit the agreement.

However, if you decide you must go along with LS one thing Mortarman did do was agree to a temporary custody arrangement wherein he had 4 days then she had 4 days. This afforded him the opportunity to have days off of parenting and days where WW had to fulfill her parenting obligation. Another advantage...weekends rotate. He went to Plan B and was able to stay dark more easily than a back and forth arrangement. He also picked up any day she couldn't take kids (which will inevitable happen based on such arrangement) and he gave up ZERO days of his custody to her. When final custody hearing occurred he was able to demonstrate that he was the responsible parent and he won the final custody battle by utilizing tons of documentation. If you must go to LS agreement this is the type arrangement you need to battle for.


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I told her that I was going to go back to school at the major University I work at. (It'd be free!) She shed a few tears when I told her that. I told her that this whole thing will make me a better man, no matter what happens.

Why did this make her cry??? Good mantra, btw...I used it something similiar...."I will make it. I prefer to make it with you, but either way I will make it"

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The thought of fighting for my kids, and forcing my Wife to file for D by not agreeing to an LS, comes with huge risks and financial implications, which in turn would hurt the kids even more.

ON THE OTHER HAND, by agreeing to a amicable LS and not fighting for your marriage utilizing the MB principles (which is the best known, most thoroughly researched and PROVEN, yet narrow, path to marital restoration and personal recovery) you may be making the financial implications and children's pain more likely to occur. There are no guarantees, but MB is your best chance. Since when is doing next to nothing...waiting for it to go away...ever been a succesfull strategy????.

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On another note: I found an old "Pre-us" journal that my W had kept. It describes some unbelievable stuff with other relationships prior to our M. She had a BF who she claimed to "love so deeply" then, two days later, kissed 2 men out at a college party, and qualified it as a test for her and her BF. But then said about one of the "kissers" if it wasn't for BF, she'd "do him in a second". All sorts of stuff like that in the 3 month journal. That was 15yrs. ago, but am wondering if those parts of her still exist, thus her A. Not sure I married the woman I thought I did!!

Pretty irrelevant. Comparing the notes of a single young woman to a married woman with children is a bit of reach. However, it is maybe something to discuss in recovery though that was from a long time ago. For some reason she has a screw loose and entitlement may be one of them. I'd guess she has some serious intimacy issues as well.

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But 11yrs. of a good relationship with her seems as though I did!!!

This is the woman you are fighting for today.

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I dread her leaving, if she leaves, but I am looking forward to trying something else. So conflicting, but isn't that the mindset of a BS?


Protect yourself from thoughts of other women until you are divorced. You are very vulnerable to a revenge affair right now. Be wary of sharing your story with any women. Also, in some states just being alone with a woman in a building or residence can be used to create an inference of sexual intercourse. So your wife could use evidence of phone calls and a "visit" by a legitimate friend to "imply" that you are being unfaithfull as well. You'd have to disprove the inference...tough to do. Just be wary.

Mr. Wondering


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Well, overheard my WW talk to other man. Not good!! She had a bunch of small talk, trashed my Mother and Sister (and they were so close before all this) and she told OM, "Isn't it going to be so weird, you can call me, and I can actually answer the phone, and we can go out in public... and then she ends the phone conversation with.."Welll,...uhhmm....I miss you, and know that I'll call you when I can." Meanwhile the kids were in the living room for the 40min conversation, asking mom "please play with us", and she kept telling them to "stay in the other room."

It obviously, was gut wrenching to hear. I confronted her with my knoweldge and then she said "does that make you feel better?" and I said "How could it make me feel better? I'm your husband!" I said it in a calm voice. I told her that I understand the nature of affairs and that we only have a chance in the future, if her heart is empty of him." She broke down and cried uncontrollably for 10 minutes, hugging me and telling me how sorry she was for being so weak to recontact him about 5 weeks ago. She said she's been intimate with him twice since then. And now we are in the same house, and it's untenable. No conversation, and she looks at me with such guilt, but yet is able to be so short with me.

I also overheard her say to OM, that "He's(me) been so nice to me the last week....SO NICE...making me coffee in the morning (which I've always done!!) Covering me up on the couch, ....well I guess he's still trying, but....." That hurt the worst.

I'm going to see my lawyer in a few minutes. Need to discuss my options...but for now...hurting so bad!!!

Oh, and she told her mother the day before this new discovery, that she "still hoped that things could work out between us, but that she doesn't feel that now!" WTF!!

Comments, please?


BH(me)-46, FWW-43, DS-12, DD-14
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bump please!


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I just stumbled on your thread, I don't know your whole story...yet. But I hear your pain. I'm so sorry this was a false recovery...I know how it feels. Did you see your lawyer? Do you have a plan? I'm going to try and catch up on your thread. Hang in there. It sounds like time for plan B.


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WH-42
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together 21 yrs, married 18.5yrs
"I love you but not IN love with you" speech 6/3/04
D-Day 2/25/05; WH moved out 3/15/05 & back too soon 3/22/05...He left again 5/8/06
5/25/06 Plan B.....NC letter 6/18/06
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It seems like you have been getting some REALLY GOOD advice from Mr.W, you should take it.


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together 21 yrs, married 18.5yrs
"I love you but not IN love with you" speech 6/3/04
D-Day 2/25/05; WH moved out 3/15/05 & back too soon 3/22/05...He left again 5/8/06
5/25/06 Plan B.....NC letter 6/18/06
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Well, overheard my WW talk to other man. Not good!! She had a bunch of small talk, trashed my Mother and Sister (and they were so close before all this) and she told OM, "Isn't it going to be so weird, you can call me, and I can actually answer the phone, and we can go out in public... and then she ends the phone conversation with.."Welll,...uhhmm....I miss you, and know that I'll call you when I can." Meanwhile the kids were in the living room for the 40min conversation, asking mom "please play with us", and she kept telling them to "stay in the other room."


Nothing suprising here. They all do this.

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It obviously, was gut wrenching to hear. I confronted her with my knoweldge and then she said "does that make you feel better?" and I said "How could it make me feel better? I'm your husband!"

I hope you did not reveal that you utilized the tape recorder??? It sounds like you did. You could have bluffed many other ways that you had obtained the info, giving up your source of information makes it extremely difficult to monitor in the future and no WW likes to be snooped upon to such an extreme. In Plan A you are attempting to deposit Love Units and that is difficult to do when you appear so controlling as to hide tape recorders all over the place.

Anyway, what's done is done. You can promise not to do it again and then do it if you like. Often, WW's are too preoccupied with their addictions to really concern themselves with what you are doing.

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I said it in a calm voice. I told her that I understand the nature of affairs and that we only have a chance in the future, if her heart is empty of him." She broke down and cried uncontrollably for 10 minutes, hugging me and telling me how sorry she was for being so weak to recontact him about 5 weeks ago. She said she's been intimate with him twice since then. And now we are in the same house, and it's untenable. No conversation, and she looks at me with such guilt, but yet is able to be so short with me.


Maybe, just maybe, you can get her back to No Contact again and go through the withdrawal period again. At least she was honest about the being with him again. Did she state what she intends to do????

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I also overheard her say to OM, that "He's(me) been so nice to me the last week....SO NICE...making me coffee in the morning (which I've always done!!) Covering me up on the couch, ....well I guess he's still trying, but....." That hurt the worst.

Remember, a WW has to keep OM interested and believing he is the only one and she wants to leave the marriage. It is a fantasy relationship. Everything they say is based upon this fantasy world. It is not necessarily an indication of what is really happening or going to happen. I saw a text my FWW sent saying "I can't wait till our love is out in the open and we can hug and hold hands in public...our day will come". I heard many terrible things about myself many of which were flat out lies. My wife said things to her OM to keep her OM saying all the sugarcoated lovey-dovey stuff back to her. To keep him fully invested in the relationship. It's all a feel-good game to both the WW and the OM.

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I'm going to see my lawyer in a few minutes. Need to discuss my options...but for now...hurting so bad!!!

Remember, divorce attorneys are cynical. Look to him for Divorce/custody advice not marital advice. This is not over by a long shot. Divorces take time so not matter what you decide to do stick to Plan A for now and see what happens.

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Oh, and she told her mother the day before this new discovery, that she "still hoped that things could work out between us, but that she doesn't feel that now!" WTF!!

Of course she doesn't feel that way now. She's back in contact and thinks this is the last straw for your relationship. Once you know the truth you are going to leave her....whether she likes it or not. She's laying the groundwork with her mother that is looks like the end is nearing. She is so insecure, guilt-ridden and feeling unworthy that she can see no way that you will put up with the renewed contact and try again to work out this marriage.

The choices are yours and we will support you no matter what but your discoveries this weekend are par for the course and do not indicate to me that your marriage is over...YET.

Mr. Wondering

P.S.- Do not move out, Do not move out, Do not move out.


FBH(me)-51 FWW-49 (MrsWondering)
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I forgot...Isn't she the one planning on moving out???

Is that still her plan???

Does she intend to take the kids with her???

Mr. W

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Question:

How, now that I know and she knows I know that the A is still ongoing, do I not look like a "chump" and be "all nice" to her. Won't she lose even more respect for me? Looking like I'm desperate?


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How, now that I know and she knows I know that the A is still ongoing, do I not look like a "chump" and be "all nice" to her. Won't she lose even more respect for me? Looking like I'm desperate?

A man fighting for his marriage on behalf of himself, his kids and his wife who is delusional right now could never be considered a "chump". You are to be respected and admired. If the marriage does end you will know you did all you could to save it. Your kids will know all you did to save it one day. The shame, guilt and responsibility for the divorce will lay squarely and completely on her shoulders. You will have no regrets if it, in fact, ever gets to that point.

Try not to rely or consider the thoughts and/or advice of others that have not been through this situation. They can not understand what you and her are going through like us here.

Please try to control your own emotions. The only thing you should be desparately trying to control is your own emotions because that is actually the only thing you do control. If you "act" strong and stay on your mantra..."I will make it, with or without you, I will make it" and stay focused that you are not trying to control her or manipulate her you are just fighting for your marriage. Then you will be perceived, eventually, as the strong one. The one who stood up to this insiduous affair. The one who stands on the side of what is "right". You can say that if your wife wants out of this marriage she will regret it unless she "earns her way out of it". For her own integrity, she has an obligation to try to works things out or otherwise end it...BUT ONLY AFTER A PROLONGED PERIOD OF NO CONTACT WITH OM.

On these boards we refer to it as "manning up". Despite the personal pain you are endurring if you stick to the Plan you are actually taking "control" of this otherwise "uncontrollable" situation in your life.

Like I said, we will support you in whatever you decide to do. I think you should wait, keep Plan A'ing, let her move out (without the kids), then probably Plan B. Do not discuss a L.S. agreement as there is no way to do so without LB'ing, and let your attorney handle all divorce matters while you focus only on saving the marriage. Keep journaling/documenting. Stay overly involved with the children... Drive them everywhere...sign them into all daycare/school (3rd party custody dispute documentation).

Your marriage can be saved and it can result in a better marriage than you ever thought possible. You may lose hope from time to time, but just don't give up.

Mr. Wondering

*great job not giving up your source. Keep it a secret. A lot of times you can wait a day or two and they will have no idea what, where, and/or when they were discussing this or that. You can refer directly to incident and the WW will have too much turmoil in her brain to figure out or even conceive of how you got the information.


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I hate to be cynical here but given the talk of STDs on this thread recently, I think you should be careful if you have SF with her. If you guys are not intimate, be sure the proper tests and precautions are taken before you two have SF.

In an effort to save the M, BSs too often fail to take precautions that may protect them from STDs. I know you have a lot on your plate right now, but STDs are alive and well. I just want you to keep this on the back of your mind as you try to save your M.

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OMG! SF is so far off in my mind right now!! I gave blood a few months ago, and they screen for somethings, I guess.


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Did I do something wrong here?

Last night I asked my WW how we were to coexist the next 3 weeks, now that I know the A is still ongoing? She said it's not ongoing, because she is not going to see him until after she moves out. But says she'll talk with him, just not in the house!!! I said to her that "that means the A is still ongoing, and that I can't have her in the house while that is going on!!" She said "What is it you want me to do, leave now just before the holidays. That would be unfair to the kids!!" I just stopped at that point and said that this was cruel, and she agreed, and cried. I then went to bed.

So hard, there is no room for Plan A anymore, and now I just have to deal with this situation for 3 weeks! But I'm not even sure she has looked into all the LS preparation she has to do. I just want her out, so I can Plan B, but I know I need to end with a good Plan A, and at this point, that seems the hardest to do with the ongoing A.

Thoughts, please??


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Bump


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Mwil-
Take a deep breath and then another and then another.
Do you want to save her and your marriage???? Then don't react... I know you know the drill.... Yes, it is hard...It would TEMPORARLY feel really good to go off on her and let her know just how hurt you are.... This will only set you back.... DON'T THROUGH AWAY ALL YOUR EFFORTS AND PROGRESS..

You have done very good... Take some time to get your mind right and figure your next move before you do something YOU will regret. NO LB's......

BELIEVE ME this can be done... You can do it... All of here know you can... You have the support and the tools..

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MWIL,
I'm in the same boat with you. Its tough. My WH won't admit contact is ongoing but I know that it is. I've been so sad lately because I feel my love for him fading. It scares me. He won't leave before the holidays either. Thankfully he is away on business until Friday so I have some time to collect myself.

For now I plan to get thru the holidays with dignity and grace. My plans will not be dependant on WH. I have a list of things I plan to do for myself while in plan B. I think I'll be starting that list...before he leaves. Its very draining living w/WS. Right now he is not meeting any of my top 5 needs. So I need to take care of myself so do you.
Do you have a list of things that you can do for yourself? Doing these things will bring you satisfaction...it will help distract you from WS...you will not appear needy or clingy...it will appear that you are ready to move on. I think I'll take my own advice. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />


aka-confused42
BS-45 me
WH-42
DS-14 & DD-12
together 21 yrs, married 18.5yrs
"I love you but not IN love with you" speech 6/3/04
D-Day 2/25/05; WH moved out 3/15/05 & back too soon 3/22/05...He left again 5/8/06
5/25/06 Plan B.....NC letter 6/18/06
Recovery finally began Jan 2007
We are IN love again!!!Sept 2007
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Keep Plan A'ing until she moves out...if she moves out. She can flip-flop at a moments notice (see Dazed's thread).

I endured phone calls to OM in my presence (luckily he was 750 miles away). Dazed has endured continued contact and his wife disappearing for hours at a time nearly everyday (mmmmm...wonder what they were doing yet he perseveres in his Plan A). Again, you are not being a doormat for fighting for your marriage. You are being strong. Try to remain as confident as you can. You were and are God's choice for her and she will eventually come back to you. When she does then you will have the opportunity to asses your desire to continue in the marriage. Until that time, Plan A.

Once she does in fact move out. Then Plan B should be put into effect. If you can afford it call Dr. Harley or his daughter, Jennifer. They have a calming effect and will empower you with a sense of having control of your life.

You can't control a WW. So stop focusing on what she is or is not doing. You rightly stated the Plan B can only be effective if preceded by a good Plan A. So get with it.

Mr. Wondering


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Thank-you for the responses. I feel as sometimes that when we have nice civil small talk, and she acts so normal, and I act "normal", that I'm, in a sense, playing into her hand of trying to "let me down easily". But I also understand that if and when she leaves, I need to create a safe "landing area" for her if/when the A falls apart.

My W has always needed a relationship, and has pretty much gone from one to another since she was 20. She has a deep insecurity about her, that is a result of her weight issues, but now she looks wonderful!! And it's approaching the 6mo. mark, in which all of her thoughts have been centered around OM. Any suggestions as to what aspects of Plan A can be emphasized? I'm going to do some more things for myself, (attend B-ball games, have my X-mas party for work w/o her, etc.)

Should I create more time away from her? And during the times I am with her, just treat her with respect?

We are supposed to go X-mas shopping Sat. night and go to her family's X-mas party on X-mas eve. Do I go? How do I act?

Please comment. I need to "man up" now!!!!


BH(me)-46, FWW-43, DS-12, DD-14
A- 6-25-05 'til 5-06...Was Recovered! Back at it on 8/14
ME!!!!!!
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Mywife, it is scarry how similar our situations really are.

I get the same feeling from my WW when we have civil discussions. I have started to detach from my WW since I don't want to be seen as this clingy needy husband. That doesn't mean you LB, just focus on yourself a little and try to meet her EN when you can. I know that will be hard since she probably doesn't want anything from you right now.

I am in the same situation regarding the Christmas parities with famlily and I'm leaning on going. If you don't go it will just make you seem resentful and depressed. Go and have a great time.

Hang in there, things will probably get worse before the get better.


Married 10 years, Legally Seperated Aug 2,2006
1 year of Plan A followed by 1 year of Plan B...
...now stepping towards recovery?????
BH 37(me), WW 35, DB 7 & DD 5
My Story
My struggle with an EA
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