Thanks, Mr. Wondering!!! I see the pros and cons of both signing the LS and "Manning up" and having her file for D.

I'll support you either way and not think any less of you. This is a tough situation you are in and it is very difficult to be faced with these life decision in the midst of a lot of hurt and pain. I fully understand you wanting to play along with wife in hopes that will get her back...after all you have been with her for a long time and she in the mother of your children. Why take my advice or MB advice when she is telling you how to win her back by enabling and going along? I completely understand and I am not being sarcastic.

No matter what you do your marriage will remain savable for as long as you retain the desire to save it. The longer you wait to take action the deeper and harder it will be to pull wife out of the fog. You could just wait for the affair to die it's natural death but like I said you'll likely have no love left for wife by that time. The time to fight is at hand. Plan A your butt off, prepare yourself for the legal fight at hand with your attorney (not your wife) and prepare yourself for the likely firework response of WW.

If you can afford it call the Harley's. You are at a critical juncture in your decision making process. I hear Steve and Jennifer having a calming influence. They'll put you on the best plan for your particular situation and give you back a feeling of control over the events that are seemingly cascading all around you.

Mr. Wondering

OT -

But Mr. Wondering is correct. My WH cashed in his retirement savings too - over $50,000. He had to pay a penalty, and taxes. That was 18 months ago.

I have held on to mine. Now that we are divorcing, guess what he wants half of? MY RETIREMENT SAVINGS.

This thread is starting to look more and more like Dazed's and Hopethisworks!! I wonder what WW will do when I tell her NO LS!! Her head might explode!! My mother just had a heart attack, my uncle just died of one, and there she is packing up her stuff, with a phone to her ear, laughing and giggling with her girlfriend, like all is great! Do I really want this woman???

You're doing alot of complaining about your WS and that's not being productive. Yes, WS's act selfish...they are consumed in their own little compartmentalize world of betrayal. They are living for the OM addiction. He makes her feel good and young again. Her recaptured youth. It feels so good to her she can escape from the real world completely and behave like a high school girl all over again. Chatting and laughing with girlfriends. Of course, you BH are boorish, needy and problematic. She thinks you don't get it.

Why is this counterproductive??? Because you do not want WW...you want your wife back...the real loving woman you married and just a few short months ago was behaving like a normal wife and mother. I've said this already but you can't answer your question above until you are in a less emotional state. Until after you have fought for your real wife back on behalf of that real wife, your children and yourself. So...getting angry at or about the WW only hurts you. If you express it to the WW it only serves to feed her affair and further severe your relationship. You must become the rock and emotionally prepare yourself for the battle that is on the horizon while you Plan A your wife as best you can. The better your Plan A the better your Plan B...so lets get with it. What is your plan?????

Mr. Wondering

Thanks again, Mr. W. My plan, is plan A as much as I can. All she talks about is how civily, is the problems that we had, and that it's just a shame it's too late. I responded that it was not too late, but her continuing to see OM, makes it impossible to recover. She restated that her and I just weren't "in tune". I agreed, and restated that with all of what has happened that we were in better shape to build a great M, with the knowledge we now know. She said, it's too late, and that all the feelings of love for me are gone.

At that point, I just walked away, because I knew I was talking to an alien.

She follows me into the other room and says you are a good man, and don't deserve any of this. And that she will always care for me. And then asked me if I would help her get some boxes down from some shelves so that she could continue packing!! I told her that I really needed to work on the snowblower.

Our D's X-mas concert was last night, and you could tell she was really uncomfortable there!! It's the first time that she has been out in public, in our town, since much of the exposure.

Talked to L and he is a bull!! He says don't sign anything, and when she leaves, call him!!

Here we go!!!!

Plan A, then drop the bomb when she leaves, probably, custody hearing, then Plan B!!! Sound like Dazed???????

Please keep me in your thoughts and prayers for my kids, my WW, my mother and family,......and lastly me. But I'm going to be OK, and I know it!!!

Hi MWIL
I think you really need to STOP R talk...it is not going to change her mind. I don't mean you should stop wanting to save your marriage just stop telling WW that. She is out to prove the M can't be saved. Have you read the Star*fish post yet? Its on my thread Luna sent it. I think it could help you.



small 2x4 here...you are in our prayers and thoughts but... look where you put yourself on the priority list!! YOU need to be first! Why? Because if you don't take care of yourself and do things to make yourself happy then how are you going to take care of your kids and your mother...and why would your WS want to be your W?

Confused,

She had started the R talk, and I gave the "Plan A" answers.

As far as my listing me "last", I'm more confident in ME than I have been in quite sometime, maybe because my mother's heart attack really put things into perspective. I of course, value myself more than anyone, but would give my life for all of the mentioned, (except change WW to W!!) And your right, if I don't value myself above all others, then my value to all others is diminished!!!

Good!!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

MywifeIlove - I understand how emotionally wrenching all of this is, so I am very hesitant to offer a "2x4" that you seem to need. But, having been where you are it seems that someone needs to talk to you about the "cold hard facts."

Your marriage is already over.

It can be resurrected, but not until your wife "comes to her senses. Until then, NOTHING you do will register positively with her and she will try to "let you down easily" with words like "you deserve someone better." Fact is, you DO.

NOTHING is going to change until a CRISIS is precipitated.

In my case, it was telling my wife to pack up and move TODAY to her apartment. There can BE NO 3rd person in a marriage or a marriage does not exist, no matter how painful it is to the faithful spouse. As she was driving to her apartment with her packed luggage, with OM waiting there to help her "move in," she realized for the first time, without the excuses or rationalizations of the "fog," that I WAS SERIOUS and that she had to CHOOSE one or the other, but that she could never have "both" as an option. That's when the fog began to lift.

So I really don't know (I do understand) what you are waiting for, the "death of a thousand cuts" or "face the reality of your (your wife's) choices?

Get a lawyer, separate everything, including the kids, from her to protect the children and your assests. No doubt about it in my mind, the OM will get his hands on EVERTHING, not just your wife, if you don't put up a legal wall and use everything at your disposal.

Your wife HAS chosen, now it's time for her to live with her choices and for you live as protective father to your children. I'd do everything in my power to cut off her access to the children because you KNOW that until she "wakes up," if ever, the children will be exposed to a very poor example of "manhood."

Get going on the legalities right now. Check with your attorney to see if "abandonment" is better served with her leaving on her own or if it makes no difference if you tell her to leave.

For me, the choice was "simpler," my children were growna and God does NOT permit anyone else in a marriage...and I will not be an "Enabler" for sin or the appearance that sin is "okay," no matter how much it hurts or how much I wish the tribulation did not have to occur.

(((((Mywifeilove)))))

I know how hard it is to "pull the trigger" when your emotions are screaming at you about the "ramifications." Those ramifications will happen whether you act or not. But you can "set the example" and be the "leader," even if it requires sacrifice and enduring more pain.

God bless, strengthen and comfort you with His presence.

FH, others here have suggested to continue Plan A'ing, until she moves out. Then I will "drop the bomb" and tell her that, though I had originally consented to her going and getting an LS drawn, I'll will sign nothing, because of what I found out about OM, and I'm protecting my kids. I will then tell her that I have no control over what choices she makes from here on out. And if she moves out and tries to take the kids, BAM, I go to family court and get temp. custody of children. Will that be a crisis???!!!!!!!! You bet!! She already sees that I'm doing more things for myself, as well as being a great son to my Mom after her heart attack.

It's truly amazing that she still acts "nice" to me, when we are around each other. I think she is trying to manipulate me, but it is not happening!!

I'm taking the advice given by another member and: Walking softly, but carring a big stick!

Any other comments?

Courts take time. I would do as MM says, get started now.

My L told me to wait for her next move. If she hands me a LS, then bring it to him, and see where she is at. There's a chance her L may tell her to stay until the LS is signed. I then can "drag my feet" awhile, while planning my next move.

If MWIL can stick it out and continue his Plan A with no LB's then I think throwing her out will just make her the victim. She just told him this morning he is a "good man" and deserves better. His changes are being noticed and internalized. I do not think the proposed actions of the other posters are wrong. Either way works cause the crisis will occur sooooooon either way. I think if she has her apartment ready you could subtlely encourage her to leave now...why wait and prolong the hurt and pain but MWIL can not consent to her leaving or else it is not "abandonment".

Perhaps the following conversation:

WW: "I'm moving out Jan. 1"

BH: "You're a big girl and I can not force you to stay...I wish you would...but if you have already made up your mind why are you making me/us endure another week of pain...If your walking out on us why not just do it today"

WW: "I'm not walking out on you guys...the marriage is over...blah, blah, blah...I want to get a LS agreement in place before I go"

BH: "You know I have no intention of discussing a LS agreement with you...have your lawyer contact my lawyer and they can work it out...If your going to leave next week anyway why put us through this pain for another week...why don't you just choose to leave today"

WS's make stupid choices...look at Mrs. Dazed she spent the night with OM at her apartment for the first time the very night before her custody hearing. MWIL's WW is sooo excited to walk out and begin her new life with her OM. Her addiction will preempt her logical decision making process and she may just go. I admit, if she is leaving anyway you can accelerate the timetable of this process by getting her to "choose" to walk out today. But it must be her choice. Another Dazed reference...notice how Mrs. Dazed's attorney tried to reframe the custody battle like Mr. Dazed had "thrown her out the door". You want to make certain that though you want her to walk out today if she is going to walk out Jan 1 anyway...It still remains...She walked out. If you email each other you should document it that you wish she would stay and work things out and refer to her leaving as "when you walk out" or "I can't believe you walk out", etc.

Lastly, Plan B only works with a good Plan A. You have been noticeably processing MB principles and turning your attitude around in the last week. Another week or so of Plan A'ing before she walks out may be beneficial. She's not gone yet. She has not filed for divorce yet. If MWIL has the strength and fortitude to take crap for another week or so in an effort to fill as many needs of hers as he can and prove his changes (which is the only he controls right now) then Plan B will become more effective.

MWIL's wife is still firmly in withdrawal. She perhaps needs to engage in a little conflict with MWIL as he perfects the carrot and stick of Plan A. Be prepared for it...and practice your reverse babbling techniques without LB.

Just my opinion.

Mr. Wondering

My WW already has rented a house, changed her address on many of her bills, and has purchased many big ticket items from her cashed in Roth IRA!!!! This to me, (Not sure in front of a judge) shows that she is planning to move out!! This is going to get interesting over the next few weeks!! I will finally be able to take control over this horrible situation after 6 months of WW's fantasy world just rolling along! Crisis time! And really, the focus of implementing this plan, makes me feel a bit better, knowing that I'm standing up for myself and my children....and in a sense...for my M.

Just realized, that today is the first day in over 3 years that my W (or WW) hasn't emailed me during the day!! Funny, I'm not too shook up about it! My W seems like a distant memory. But I know she's in there, somewhere!

My tax advice earlier is a little less of a problem because it is a Roth Ira. You probably know this which is why you indicated it...but the principal has already been taxed before it went into the Roth account so the tax ramnifications are not as severe. Still have a 10% penalty and income tax on the interest/growth but at least the principal is not fully taxable.

Mr. W

Went to a basketball game with friends last night. It felt good to get out. Got home and WW was still up. She was very nice and civil, but had visibly packed up more of her stuff. It was kinda late, and I told her that she didn't have to wait up for me! She said, "oh, that's ok, I had a lot of X-mas wrapping to do." I asked if I could help wrapping some of the "square" presents. She laughed pretty hard, knowing my skills at wrapping things that are not in a box!! She said, "well I'm done for the night, but thanks." Almost as though, everything was normal!! Nice Plan A, as she laid down on the couch, I very nonchalontly covered her up with a blanket. She said thank-you and sleep well. I said you too. Then I went to bed.

She is two people right now. I'm now understanding just how different those two people are right now. I'm wondering if I do a terrific Plan A for the next week or two, if it will make no difference after I inform her of my decision to not sign any LS, and pursue custody of the kids.

I've seen fog, but not like this!! Is it possible she has a mental problem? Like I've said before, she has always (not outwardly) been insecure about herself, which I believe has led to her being a HUGE conflict avoider (always concerned about how others perceive her, and adapting herself to conditions around her). Her family does have a history of bipolarism, and some other not known mental problems. Her Dad was not around during her adolescence and late teen years.

Comments?

Small World;

My wife's father is also a bi-polar...go figure.

I believe it is much more likely her behavior is a result of her FOO (Family of Origin issues) than her actual being bi-polar herself. More likely but I can't rule it out from the limited information we get here and the fact I am not a physician. However, I too, believed my wife was behaving as a bi-polar at the time of the affair. If you read about the symptoms and what they do to there families and the destruction they reap upon themselves and their loved ones than almost any WS could be catergorized as BPD. You want another catch all WS mental illness read up on Borderline Personality Disorder. Again, every WS exhibits Borderline "tendencies". IMO the difference is whether these behaviors are persistent or consistently happening in waves over many years of observation.

Also, your wife is on AD. If not monitored or if she is taking too much then the AD medication can also affect behavior.

Later today I'll find a link to my wife's posts describing the situation in her family. Her father exhibited severe manic episodes and her High School years were very difficult with him. I think being the child of a Male Bi-Polar makes being the husband of that child very difficult. Coupled with the child of bi-polar's ability to compartmentalize their life...to escape into their imagination...to simply have the overwhelming desire to ESCAPE...makes the affair recovery situation even more difficult.

The fact that OM is disabled perhaps exhibits WW's need to "save" somebody. Her father abandoned her so to have OM "need" her feels good. Does she ever say "MWIL...you don't really need me do you, if I wasn't around you'd be O.K."? Or maybe, she feels to dependent on you and is always mindful of getting to close, too intimate for fear you will abandon her just like dear old Dad? Either way it is an intimacy issue that she needs to resolve in individual counseling.

I had re-read your earlier thread to see if your wife was saying some of the same stuff mine did. For us the control issue was big...her father tried to control her when he was manic so she fought against my "controlling" hard during the affair. I am not controlling at all but merely just handle/handled most everything and it was not a problem until the affair. Then I got looked at as her father figure which I constantly had to point out "I am not your father".

I notice a couple other things re-reading. OM is diabled too...no wonder your WW doesn't want to pay support. Your attorney better go for support...I am sure he will. Also, OM is sitting on a $250,000.00 settlement. No much money in the grand scheme of things when you are not working. It would be a good future L.B. is WW had to access some of his money to pay legal fees fighting you. It would take away some of the money they were counting on for "happiness" and build up his expectations for their relationship by so "sacrificing" his settlement money for "love". barf. If OM has any sense at all he may hoard his money cause he is disabled...how's wife gonna feel about supporting that loser?

There relationship is so gonna die eventually. It can not work. The harder you make it for her the faster it will end.

Your brother in arms,

Mr. Wondering

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