I will throw in my two cents to Mr. and Mrs. Spank and whoever wants to read it....
Infidelity is infidelity...Don't matter who asked permission or not. If you want to believe that the reason for all the heartbreak is all the cheating and lying then why the heck did you get married if you don't plan to stay true and honest to what you vowed when you got married? It does not matter to me one way or another if you cheated or were cheated on, or if you were lied to, or was honest, marriage is between a husband and a wife. As far as I am concerned, kissing this guy is just about as bad. It don't matter if you were with this guy 20 nights in a row or 15 minutes. You kissed him and want to have sex with him as a "temporaroy high". Sometimes people want to try a drug for this same reason with bad results or even death. Knowing that is enough to make me steer clear of trying it. Same with an affair.

Sounds like you two have your minds made up and both think it is ok...So why did you come here to ask and then get mad when people don't see things your way...Go screw the guy. Maybe your third marriage will be the charm.
Seems like you are asking for honest opinions and not liking anyone who does not say what you want to hear. You surely don't have to listen to anyone hear, you are grown adulterers......have it your way....

nia17 Thanks for trying to understand and casting no stones. Even better thanks for being a fellow clubber. I can't expect that much of the population to understand this lifestyle. It is my livelyhood and has been since I was 14 years old. SpankMix is a DJ name. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I never said I was OK and this was alright.

The Mr. and Mrs. Spank address makes me laugh.

SpankMixs Delusional Wife

"If the grass is always greener on the other side" for someone, it will take more than an affair for them to be happy. If you like you're attracted to your neighbor's car, do you steal it? No, we do without lots of stuff that we are attracted to, and it doesn't bother most of us one bit.

I don't see how this would fix anything. Nope, don't see any benefits, only drawbacks. Do you know of any societies that promote open marriage? Why do you think this is? Do you know of any happy open relationships?

Emotional strength? A loaded term, huh?

That would be a strange reason for open marriage. Would child abuse hurt less if everyone talked about it? You know from your own experience how infidelity hurts. Have you looked at the infidelity forum?

Anyway, the point is, if you gave 100 reasons, and I couldn't find a fault with any of them, would that convince me that you and your husband would have gotten more out of life if you indulged in this? No, it wouldn't change my mind at all. What if we gave you 100 ways giving MB a shot would grow your marriage, would it change your mind?

Hi Spank and Mrs Spank. I can relate to this situation. My H and I were together for 12 years when I found myself falling for another man. I struggled with it for months before telling him about it. I was in two minds about the situation - on one hand I was extremely physically attracted to the OM and all my hormones were voting for an affair. On the other hand, I did love my H and wanted to spend the rest of my life with him, just like you two. I was a complete mess with the conflict, never having been in the situation before. (I'll add too that we are not at all religious.)

So, while one part of me wanted the opportunity to experience a sexual relationship with OM, another part of me just wanted to be anchored back in reality by H. I expected him to be upset and angry and swear not to let me go in a million years. To cut a long story short, he told me to "go get out of my system". I cannot describe the feeling of abandonment I experienced. I was lost in a sea of emotion and hormonal urgings, and the one thing I thought I could rely on to keep me afloat had cast me adrift.

So my hormones won that argument, much to my everlasting regret. It turned our whole life upside down, and the focus went to the affair, rather than the problems that *led* to the affair.

We are divorced now. While we did get past the affair, other issues finally became identifiable and we were unable to resolve them. I don't say the affair caused the divorce, because I believe the issues would have eventually become apparent on their own, but it made for pure ****** for 3 years for H and I and our family.

I know now that my falling for OM was a *symptom* of our issues, and I believe that had they been properly addressed earlier things would have been resolved. They may still have ended in divorce, but at least the three years of ****** could have been avoided.

I really hope you two work on things. I know too well the feeling of being stuck at home with the kids, with a H who is not meeting my emotional needs. Mr Spank, you said earlier that Mrs Spank wanted you to be more emotional. She is expressing her NEEDS. And if you focus on meeting those needs it is much less likely that outside attractions will occur. A woman whose emotional needs are being met is usually a happy, horny (for whoever is filling the needs) woman!

I'm glad that your relationship is open enough for you to talk about this before anything goes awry, but this is a wake up call for both of you. Ignore meeting each other's emotional needs, entertain the notion of allowing affairs, and things can only get worse in the long run. PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE don't let yourselves end up the same way as H and I.

I wish you all the best ((((((Mr and Mrs Spank))))))

LSNE

(Edited to say: Have you guys checked out the Emotional Needs questionnaire? It's well worth doing so you know what each other needs the most.)

We understand all about it. Been there, done that. Then we had kids. LOL

Go with your H for a date night. It'll be much more fun.

Good post Shock! I agree with it all!

Okay, I'll bite again for the W in this situation...
I don't see where H did anything to cause any dishonesty. He was hit on in a hot tub. He retired to his room and showed some maturity, self control, and I assume respect for you... Where is your respect, self control and maturity? You sound like a child who can't get what they want! Well, why can't I (insert whiney voice), what am I hurting? I want what I want and I want it now! You want to grow old with someone, but don't have the ability to keep your legs closed to do it?! Why are you married?
Then you come to a forum that is called MARRIAGE BUILDERS and want us to tell ya, hey, sure go ahead!!!
What we (I guess I should stick with I here...) What *I* am doing here is trying to recover from a marriage that went bad due to an affair, I want my next marriage to work. I want my next relationship to work. But I know it doesn't just come automatically. If I'm going to be happy with someone (and them me), I have to work at it. I have to be in some ways selfless, I have to put their best interest before myselfish needs if there is a chance it will hurt them. They, in turn, will need to be able to identify their needs so I can attempt to meet them. I can't meet them if I don't know what they are and I may not be able to meet ALL of them, but I certainly wouldn't BLATENLY hurt them!!! If I make that vow, to say, hey baby, I'm in this with you... 6 years ago, 6 years from now, heck 60 if that's how long we are around. I'm going to give you my heart, me, who I am, and in turn, I'm going to accept you.
Do you REALLY think you aren't hurting your H??
Even by asking, I would be crushed!
Don't hurt yourself patting yourself on the back there...you aren't getting any kudos from me by ASKING for permission to cheat.
This almost feels like a RAT to me... anyone else???
What do you want us to tell you? And then like Shock said, you get upset when all of us are here to be better and you want our blessings on something that does not sit well with us? You ask how to build your marriage and then walk away and do it anyway?
Now that I've got my anger out of the way...
Let's say you don't do this...
Let's say that you TRULY love your husband, therefore, want what's best for him and your relationship and you get a little self control and maturity about you and DON'T do what the heck you want...
Let's say then, that you make a fresh commitment to each other and decide that you DO want a better relationship...
Go to counseling, read what's on here, agree (POJA) that this isn't an option in your marriage. Re-connect. Check out each other's needs... work on yourselves... Let's say in a year from now W, you are getting all that excitement from your H because you BOTH took the chance on EACH OTHER to do what you set out to do, I pressume, initially when you got married. Let's say you do grow old together, and you're still in love and you are sitting on your front porch and you one day say... Remember when I was thinking about screwing around on you? Gosh, I'm SO glad I didn't, because I love you so much, that would have hurt you so bad...
As opposed to being single because neither of you did anything to make anything better in your lives?
Listen, it's easy to cheat, it's easy to justify it all... or so I understand...
is that what you want? Or do you want to work for something good?

I am not trying to be a jerk or anything, but let me add this...
My wife and I got married 18 years ago. We said our vows to each other, we meant them. My wife is going through some very very rough emotional things right now. I would bet my life she has not cheated now or ever. She has told me time and time again that she wants no other man. With my LB in full swing and her emotional state, we have been sparated for about 4 months now. She has told me she could not blame me for seeking another woman and she even gave me permission to date. My love bank has had almost no deposits from her for almost a year (not talking about sex only, my top EN is probably companionship) My wife is concentrating on our boys, working and just enjoying some space.

Having a conversation of questionable content or even holding another womans hand is OUT OF THE QUESTION. That would constitute an affair IMO. My ring will not come off of my finger and I will not seek another woman, date another woman or be involved in ANY way with another woman as long as we are MARRIED. She is my wife and I am her husband. I know in her heart she would not want me to even look into another womans eyes and smile. Even if she had an affair, it would not change my stance. I meant what I said 18 years ago. She has made many LB towards me and deposited nothing...I would still take a bullet for her..She is my wife.....PERIOD!!!!

If you don't think I am hurting...Please refer to my poem I posted earlier today....

Bill

Ms Spanx,

Dishonesty is indeed one of the biggest hurdles to overcome when recovering from infidelity....so I really do think that your willingness to be open about your feelings is a good thing. Research shows that there are some huge gender differences in how folks view infidelity though. Women in general are more upset about the lies. Men, more upset about the sex. Honesty is always better....but is it enough to help your husband deal with the aftermath of knowing you've shared yourself this intimately with someone else? My guess is no....and the reason is because I've mentored so many husband's who could never get the pictures out of their heads.

Truth is....I've had some experience mentoring folks with open marriages and I don't know any of them that would recommend the step you two are thinking of taking. They have huge regrets. All of them thought that if it was honest, it would be okay. It wasn't okay....it created more chaos and heartbreak than you can possibly imagine. Everyone thinks they can predict how they will act and feel....and you can't. It may seem possible for instance, to compartmentalize emotions and sex....and find out later you can't. I know so many spouses who said "okay" only to find out that the emotional connection created by that intimacy was not easy to break....and instead the marriage broke.

I have plenty more to add....but have to go cook dinner. I'm going to try and get a couple of husbands I know who were in similar situations to answer you guys if I can. It would mean more coming from them I think....but please wait a while, work on the marriage in the meantime.

I have done a great deal of research on this stuff....and I've yet to find anything that shows this as "good" for a marriage....or good for person. Open marriage, polyamory, swinging....have the basis in the idea that monogamy is not natural and so if we can come up with an ethical way to have more lovers....that would be more really cool. But it's just an illusion...it falls apart when put into practice.

I too see nothing wrong or dishonest about your husband in the hot tub. Some would argue it was a risky thing to be doing in the first place (hot tub with co-worker) but he did the right thing and turned it down. If a similar thing happened to me, I MAY choose not to tell my wife. Maybe my wife would demand that I quit my job or call the woman up angry. It wouldn't be the most open thing to do not to tell her but it wouldn't be dishonest or wrong if I thought I wasn't putting myself at continued risk for an affair by not telling her.

You on the other hand KISSED a guy and told your husband after the fact! Tell me what's soo open and great about that! Your husband has the upper hand in morality by a long shot!!

Well, kudos to her for asking for permission, and thats about all the kudos I am giving her. If you want to take a shaky relationship and ROCK IT TO THE GROUND, then go ahead. have some dumb sex with some guy. Your wife is 34 and going to clubs? Why? It soudns to me like she lacks attention and wants affection. She wants to sleep with another man even though she committed to marraige and monogomy, but some guy comes along and that's it, she wants to break all that and you tell her to FIND A JOB?!
She wants to feel single, without techinically being single. Been there, done that.
You know, looking back at my past mistakes, thinknig and trying to convince myself of the same garbage led me to the emotional mess I am in.
I would recommend that she doesn't complicate her life anymore, and use this man as a fantasy in the bedroom with you, and stay away from clubs...34 is kind of OLD to be bar hopping...I am 29 and stopped a few years back...and even then it wasnt really bar hopping because I have a family.
I jsut dont think you are going to get anything out of this that is beneficial, bottom line..I say that from experience.

I just want to state that:

1. A married person is going to have moments where they find someone besides their spouse attractive. There will be moments of temptation no matter how good your relationship or how wonderful your spouse is. The real difference comes with what you do about it. Do you play with those ideas for fun? Or do you get them out of your head or create barriers so that an affair could never happen?

2. It is all but guaranteed that a person who puts themself in high risk situations is going to eventually fall into having an affair. I could have the best intentions. I could be madly in love with my wife. But if I do not protect myself from bad situations, it's easy to form connections and bonds and attractions that grow beyond our control. That's why it's good that married couples set rules for themselves such as "no lunches alone with co-workers of the opposite sex". Lunch in itself is harmless; but it can be the garden for a deeper connection to be made.

---
One of the things you mentioned was that "everybody seems to be having affairs" so why fight it and get your heart broken if your spouse cheats.... Rather, just embrace it and "take care of it up front" so there is no sting of a hidden affair.

The world is the way it is today with divorce and affairs because people aren't valuing morals and committment that extends beyond "a happy, fun life". The life I speak of is not an easy one. It's not one of "temporary highs" and "the next best thing" or the easiest path. It's much more of a marathon. Where each of you grow and learn slowly. You build one little joy on top of another and over time you have a mountain of treasures stored up for yourselves. This is how sucessful marriages or built-- not by each of you doing whatever you please.

I see you've gotten lots of replys here. I hope, for your sake, that what you say isn't true.

Let me qualify what I'm going to say with telling you that we are ex-swingers.

When you're wife tells you that she only wants to sleep with this one man once...boy...if you believe that I seriously want to sell you some water front property! She doesn't want to have an open marriage?!?!?! Come on....you're opening up the door!

You and your wife have problems. You may be in love with her...but she's not in love with you. I would not, in a million years, give her your permission to sleep with another man.

My wife and I found this site and read Dr. Harleys books. We both realized that swinging was not and would not ever be good for our relationship and love for one another. We stopped at that point. There is practically no way that either of you could carry on a sexual relationship with another person and be fully and completely in love with one another. We're talking about romantic love here! She will develop, if she hasn't already, a lot of romantic love for that man.

I really wish you good luck here. If I can be of help, email me off of the list.

God bless you!

bNc_78

I totally understand why W is sad about H in the hot tub with the coworker out of town on a business trip, considering it before turning it down, and then not saying anything until this mess came up. Come on, who'd be happy to hear that, especially someone who had been cheated on before.

Dear Mr & Mrs Spank,

Isn't MB great? Look at all these people typing out their thoughts and effort to help you. And both of you here, looking your own thoughts and hearts. Sorry, I'm just moved.

Mrs Spank? What follows comes from being in part, you. I did this exact thing a couple of years ago. My questions are not attacking, I promise. I'm asking you for even more honesty--utmost.

By telling your H about your desire, did you feel intimate with him? Like sharing a problem? Do you feel like he shares that intimacy with you? How do you feel knowing that the kiss, the question for permission, that he felt rage, jealousy, anger, fear?

This caged feeling--middle-aged thingie maybe--does it have to do with your H's lack of intimacy? You're willing to share your wayward thoughts and he doesn't share his laughter, tears, fears or a thought from a hot tub? Do you fear his secrets? You married someone who cheated, both times. How do you feel about it? Any part of payback, wanting to be the one that has the power to harm, to have someone know how you felt when your first husband ripped out your guts?

You remember that, right? In all your honesty, do you want to do that to your beloved H? You do love him. I know you do. I know you want decades being with him. Do you want solid evidence (his saying "No, it would break me to pieces") that he loves you and won't abuse your love by cheating on you? How far will he go to keep you? How much disrespect of himself will you ask him for?

I wanted attention from my H. I wanted the attention of his thoughts and his heart. He has a fear of intimacy. Most men who have cheated do. I am the one who cheated in my marriage in this very fashion--upfront and honest, pushing for permission and overflowing with selfish demands. Couldn't figure out how that wasn't working for me. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Has Mr Spank been betrayed before? If he doesn't know that path, are you really willing to put him through it, knowing full well how destructive it is? Unerasable?

If I didn't know this journey so well, I wouldn't be here telling you. From mine to yours, human to human. I was in that WS fog. I wasn't thinking straight, yet I swear, it felt like life was suddenly crystal clear. I had power, choices and it was my darn life. I rewrote history and who I was and looked intensely at the negative until all that I cherished got lost.

I don't wish this for you. You're already here. You have the awesome, amazing choice of reading up and side-stepping ths terrorizing lesson that many of us didn't. Take advantage of it.

Mr. Spank? Get intimate. Use the counseling to find out your need to cheat on your first wife. Not the reasons you may think. Your fear of intimacy and Mrs Spank fear of abandonment are a harrowing mix. Please don't add others into it. You've got a life-time shot right now and I think you know it. Get a great counselor--not just a good one. Be as honest as your wife. Lay it out, from your heart, all the past secrets you've been keeping, and the withdrawal, and the disengaging and find where it feeds you--by starving her. You guys can have an incredible marriage.

Because you're already here.

LA

I arrived home tonight from being out of town for three days. I could tell my wife was sad or upset. When we went to bed, she told me she was sad... and tired from being up so late so many nights.. as I had been too.

I couldn't sleep and decided to go downstairs to play the piano. My way of releasing stress. Before that, I gave her an hour back rub and told her I forgave her for the kiss.

I'm not without fault. I've given her plenty of reasons to distrust me. Nothing concrete. But more of a string of unfortunate mistakes, misunderstandings and basic immaturity. She has told me she knows I've never cheated. That was comforting. As far as the emotional side, I need some work. I know I feel lots of emotion. I fail to express it. I must be a time bomb ready to explode. And yes, I need some council. She's going Friday alone and I plan on joining. I'm feeling very excited and anxious to get this going. It's our last best hope. And if we both meet halfway and do this thing seriously, I feel we're going to be ok. Nomatter what has happened. I'm going to forgive and forget this one time as she has overlooked some of my misgivings. Whatever happened, how it happened. Not my concern. The focus now is to reclaim the love that once flourished. She is my solemate and mother of of my children.

I'm going to extend the benefit of the doubt. Give-in to whatever is holding me back. Be more fun when we go out. Cry when I feel like it. Laugh as often as I find humor... Change for me. Change for her.

My emotions. My sharing them. I hope in some way, the notion of me coming here to share is one small way to illustrating were my emotions are. At least the serious side of them. Perhaps, I communicate better with words when I can watch them unfold. Just need to work on the verbal end of things.

Tomorrow, I'm lighting a fire. Opening some wine and hope to rediscover the miraculous discovery of my wife. Mrs. Spank, if you're reading this on Tuesday, rest-up. We're going to have a wonderfull night of self-discovery, worthy conversation and warmth. I love you. Let's make this work. Shut-out all outside influence. Make this happen. I'll meet you at the fireplace at 9:15. If you need me to mapquest directions, let me know :-)

Love Mr. Spank

Thank you all for your support through this.. whoever you are!

Mr. Spank,

It sounds good. I do hope it works out for you. I do believe you love your W and I don't believe her having this fling is ok with you. I think it will catch up with you in the end.

Mrs. Spank,

You talk of how honesty is so important. I challenge you to be honest with yourself. What is it you are really missing and what is it you really need? Can you be honest with yourself and find a long term solution to your problems rather than a quick fix that has the potential to be devastating to your marriage? Can you be honest with your H and let him know what it is you really need from him?

He had alot of good ideas about ways to relieve your "caged" feelings and those were productive, long term fixes to your problem.

It sounds like you are missing some of the excitment of being young and single. I also was an avid clubber but at 31 I started looking around and everyone else were kids. That's when I realized I didn't belong anymore. I miss it myself BUT there is more to life than JUST that lifestyle. This is not meant to be a slam at all but it wouldn't surprise me a bit if you are just starting to feel your age and are grasping to hang onto the last shred of your youth and party days.

That said, you may trade in the adrenaline rush you get from the pumping beat and the raw youthful feeling as you are freely moving on the dance floor BUT there is life beyond that. There are other ways to feel that rush. There are other things that aren't so exciting but offer the same basic filling of emotional and physical needs. You sound like a bright woman. Expand your mind.

You can't be feeling good about what's going on and if this is causing you stress and sadness then you may want to see it for what it is. A poor choice which you will pay for someday.

Wish you the best.

Symphony

Dear Spankies:
H&W, thanks for posting this morning. I've thought about some of the things that I said in my previous post, and I spoke out of anger, and probably a little harsh about the "keeping your legs closed". For that, I apologize...(UNLESS it got to you and made you think!!!) <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
H, I think your idea of the fireplace, wine, and time for the two of you is the best thing I've seen either of you say. THIS is where you start!!! You can't change what you have done in the past, either of you...but you CAN start today-BOTH of you.
H, you can start working on your feelings...I think W might like it even if you wrote them down at first-if that's all you can do right now, then go for it...she has some needs that aren't being met by you. But again, it's impossible for you to meet them if you don't know what they are...
Maybe you could print out the EN questionairres for your trist tonight? It would be a GREAT place for you to start...
W, I'm both sorry and glad you are sad. Sometimes that sadness can put our butts into action. I'm THRILLED that you have made a counseling appt. I DO give you kudos for that! Sometimes, it's at our lowest points when a profound decision will set the course of the rest of our lives... maybe you are there! And you will make the RIGHT decision to save your marriage.

To BOTH: TODAY is what matters now... Begin...
Get real with yourselves and each other. I want to see you here in a year posting to other couples about your success and how much in love you are after a very tremulous time in your lives!!! Pass it along. Keep us posted!
I'm moved when I think of two people I don't know sitting by a fire and renewing their commitment to each other and their family, beginning on a journey talking about their feelings and sharing what they need from each other and both promising to try...I'm hopeful that the thoughts and words of others around the world via this board can save a marriage. I'm grateful to know about this board and am anxious to hear how things go...
I don't think you have irreparable harm to your relationship, and I really am glad that you came here and really listened to what we have to say...
Won't you both let us know how things are going with you? and how your evening tonight goes...
I'll be thinking and wishing the best for you....

Blessings to you both!

I really wish you guys luck. I believe that it really boils down to how you guys will conquer love busters and how you will go about meeting one anothers needs.

POJA - never do anything without your spouses enthusiastic agreement. Simplistic but hard to put into practice. You have to start thinking with one another in mind. The POJA will bring on new things for you both to do that you mutually enjoy.

It's so easy to give in and continue to do things they way you do now. It will require hard work to undo those habits. Your goal is to build a romantic love where you both consider each other irresistable. It doesn't sound to me that Mrs. Spank liason has to be inevitible.

My W and I recently came out of swinging. Probably as close to the life style you are considering as you can get. I saw the couples and singles involved in swinging. I didnt' care for what I saw. Did I see lots of romantic love? I don't think so. I talked to some of the couples about how they got into swinging. By and large, in my opinion, they weren't meeting one anothers needs when they got involved.

Also, keep in mind that I saw people continue in swinging because most of the needs were being met in their marriages with the exception of affection, admiration, sexual fulfilment, admiration. Did they have their cake and eat it too? No...I don't think so because I never saw people madly in love with one another. Just a life style that allowed them to, again, have some of their needs met outside of their marriage.


It's good you are seeking marriage counseling. If you don't get anywhere with that person then seek another. Buy the books Love Busters and His Needs Her Needs and read them together. Discuss the things you feel are relevant as you read, fill out the questionairres, and formulate a plan.

I think you'll find yourself on the road to recovery. Again, it won't be easy. It hasn't been for my wife and I. But I think we are steadily making progress.

Good luck,

bNc_78