But you posted the quote about being honest to prevent affairs. It's not about being honest and doing it, anyway.

And no, many I've know were quite confident in characterizing the A as a weakness or flaw on the WS's part. Sure, it's a blow, and you re-evaluate how you may have contributed, but the blame usually ends up where it belongs.

But the one message stays clear: having an A does not fix or help a marriage. That's all. Please take care - Dru

And just to clarify things, I do not go to the clubs 4 nights a week. I went 4 times in that one week, for the first time in years.

So be honest, can you ever imagine the situation where your H HONESTLY feels good about your sleeping with someone else? Really?

Can you imagine a time in your relationship (maybe around the time the kids were born), when you would have HONESTLY been happy with your H sleeping with someone else? It's no different for him, it's hurtful to see our loved ones with someone else. You know this.

He's being honest, he honestly doesnt want this. If nothing else, please also respect his honesty.

Affairs also lead to divorce in many, many cases. And it not just because they werent honest, it's because one partner valued a faithful partner. If these are his values, how will this marriage survive? - Dru

Dear Spankies

As much as you may feel that you are stuggling now, let me tell you how lucky -- hate that word, but too lazy to think of another one right now -- that you are here together . If you read other threads you will see that its quite rare for both husband and wife to choose to follow Marriage Building principles. Granted, I don't know that you've both made that choice, that its been POJA'd between you, but I'm guessing that, because you're both still here, that you feel that it just might help. That's awesome! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Let me tell you that, eventhough you are both here, the only one you can really work on is YOU. For me, that has been the toughest thing to do, to acknowledge that I actually did contribute to my ex-husband's multiple affairs <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> and that there are things I can change about myself in my new marriage that can make it even better. So as you read, let me suggest that, although you may talk about it together, you need to focus on how you will change. What will you do better?

Starting with the elimination of Love Busters is always a good first step. If you're still with us, that is. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Its good to have you here. It really is. I'm cheering you on because we need another success story. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />


Hugs from

Mrs. W8ing

Mrs SpankMix,

I don't see many of those posts as an insult to you, but an expression of the consequences that may occur if you do as you have expressed to your H.

However, be that as it may I have a thought to offer you.

It is the fact that monogamy is NOT easy or perhaps not natural that makes monogamous marriages special and different from going steady with someone. It is this willingness to commit (and yes it is a major commitment, hence the necessity to make VOWS) that separates a marriage from a just a relationship.

I would like to offer for your consideration that when you have grown old and grey with your H, you will look back on the fact that you AND your H were monogamous with great pride. The fact you have slept with yet another man will never attain the level of an event you take pride in. You both have been married before, your H has admitted to affairs, I don't know your history, but adding another person to those you have slept with will NOT be a special thing.

What will be special is if you two build and maintain a marriage that endures, the supports each of you, and that you can look back on with pride, and being monogamous is something to take pride in BECAUSE it is not so natural.

I am sure you don't see it now, but I would second others advice to you and your H, to work on your marriage and improve it. There is ample time to get rid of the monogamy "myth" if you two decide that the marriage does NOT meet your needs. If you decide to go with this guy, no matter what you do, no matter what your H does, you will NEVER be in a monogamous marriage with him. You cannot turn back time, and there are no "do overs".

Please consider this and talk with your H about it.

God Bless,

JL

My Dearest B

I can make ONE very important guarantee. I will remain faithfull to you till the day I die. Let's not live in a life filled with Fear and Regret. You have my unconditional love and respect. I will NEVER hurt you in the way that your X did you. The way I did to my X. You have my trust and your freedom back. Starting today, act as you normally would. We'll continue our dialogue from last night/early this morning. Look forward to the future. Together, (to quote RENT) THERE"S ONLY US.

I love you

R

((MrSpank))

It truly sounds as if you have an attitude of open-mindedness, honesty, and willingness. That is awesome and will carry YOU far into recovery.

“””I've felt anger, betrayal, jealously, denial, excitement, sadness, etc. etc.”””

To feel those is perfectly normal and I do hope that through counseling you are able to deal with those in an appropriate and constructive manner.

”””I've booked her every evening moment as to give her an alternative to going out. But, what I've actually done is cage her even more. It only compounded the issue.”””

You are correct, you can’t control her. She has to choose to do the right thing which you truly have no control over. You can simply sweep your side of the street. Work on meeting her emotional needs and eliminate Love Busters, the choice is hers as to whether she’ll add or take from the marriage. I encourage you both to read the Policy of Undivided Attention and work towards spending time together. I would encourage you both further to do the Recreational Activities Survey, and find some healthy alternatives that you can do together. Mrs. Spank as you read through the info on this site your going to find in the Love Busters section, that Independent Behavior (such as bar hopping) is a Love Busters, Love Busters do harm, do no harm to your marriage.

“””I will trust her 100% to make the right decisions as it pertains to us, marriage and life.”””

Can you do that? I don’t think so. Trust like Love, has conditions applied to it when we are dealing with our mate. Thus, I encourage the Mrs. to earn that trust and it truly sounds like you are willing to afford it.

“””For the record, she is correct, she not out four nights a week every night. It was a special occasion where she finally had some breathing room.”””

Whether it was 4 nights in a row or in a week, is of little value. This is where you simply have to own your stuff and let her own hers. There is no reason to defend, for no one is attacking, we are all working to help you as others have helped us. I encourage you both to focus on yourselves and if your spouse has unacceptable behavior, then do not enable it by justifying it for them.

“””Just happened to get a little out of control on the last night.”””

Again, let her own her stuff. It didn’t ‘just happen’, it was a choice she made.

“””Do I agree with what she did and requested. No.”””

OK, so that’s a boundary, awesome stick with it.

“””But, I'll remain open to her needs as bad as it sounds and let her make that decision.”””

This confuses me. In the tons of marriage books I’ve read and literally thousands of people I’ve talked to, I’ve never ever seen nor heard that having sex with someone outside your marriage is a ‘valid’ need. If you take the time to read through this site you’ll see what Dr. Harley promotes as the ‘Needs’ of a marriage that are to be met within the marriage. It’s when these things are met outside the marriage that problems occur.

“””she's in a bad position in life now.”””

That’s understandable, I’ve been in bad positions in my life as well, however, it still does not release me from accountability or responsibility.

“””You have my unconditional love and respect.”””

Really! Again, I believe there is love without condition between a parent and child but that’s it. All other love has conditions upon it. That’s a fact of life. If one party does unloving behaviors then that love the other party has will diminish. If one party displays extraordinary loving behaviors then that love will grow.

Ms Spank,

As I mentioned earlier, I've had the opportunity to work with couples who have embraced polyamory, open marriage, swinging etc. There are some important differences in philosophy vs. opportunity. Folks who truly embrace this lifestyle go into their marriages honestly from the beginning (This is what I believe...what do you believe...how can we organize our life around these beliefs) They all agree that they don't want to enter into a sexually exclusive relationship. They marry someone who is of like mind and they set up a different kind of marriage contract than people who intend to have a monogamous marriage. While it is not a lifestyle I would embrace because it contains such great risk and instability (which I think is unconsionable for children)....it is from the onset honest and open and all parties agree about what to expect. It is their mutual philosophy and as adults they are quite obviously free to choose.

The other situation....is one of opportunity....it arises AFTER the vows of monogamy are taken....usually, as a result of an affair or strong attraction. Suddenly, now that one partner is attracted to someone else....their philosophy about marriage changes to accomodate their feelings and desires. Monogamy gets scrutinized and criticized for being inadequate....not because monogamy has changed...but because one partner now finds those vows inconvenient and restrictive. These changes are not the product of a philosophy that was mutually agreed upon....but the product of the biochemistry associated with attraction to someone else. Honesty becomes a tool to justify the change....the means to an end.

Timing....is essential in deciding how ethical as well as truly honest this situation is. If you believe that monogamy is not for you....then it's a contract you shouldn't have entered into. To expect honesty to be enough to circumvent the contract now is unethical. You're not using honesty to protect your marriage....but to manipulate it now that you've met someone attractive. If you've read any of the work of Helen Fisher about the biochemistry of early attration...you would understand how easy it is to use this kind of faulty logic when your own chemistry is fogging up your ability to see this situation clearly. However, given where you are....I also don't expect you to believe me because believe it or not....while your in the throes of early attraction, the dopamine, norephenephrine and low serotonin levels are going to make it impossible for you to understand how compromised your logic really is.

The first situation....where all parties agree on the type of marriage they are entering is somewhat more stable than the second situation where the rules change when they are no longer convenient. You may succeed in convincing your husband that by being honest, you've protected your marriage. He may even think he's capable of withstanding an open marriage....but I've seen the results of these kinds of agreements and they defy prediction and almost always end up in shambles and hearache. These are the kinds of things I've seen:

*Outside sex is supposed to be recreational and becomes emotional. No one predicts the attachment that sexual contact can produce and the spouse finds they can't "give up" this extra partner as they thought they would. Their emotional attachment to the new partner becomes increasingly stronger until it's the marriage that breaks....not the affair.

*One spouse thinks they can handle their partner being with someone else....logically they can....but when it happens they are emotionally devastated and humiliated. They thought they could....and turns out...they can't...but they don't find out until it's too late. They can't stop seeing the pictures. They start to get paranoid, possesive, jealous. Even though they said yes, they find themselves full of resentment and anger...and they overtly or covertly punish their partner.

*The partner who wanted the open marriage, thinks they will be okay when the other spouse also becomes sexually involved with someone else....and finds they can't. While they understand their own attraction to someone else, it hurts deeply when their spouse reciprocates and brings someone else into the marriage. When this happens, they almost always want to end the agreement....and sometimes, the other spouse who's now had a new opportunity is the one who doesn't want it to end. I have repeated seen situations where a spouse will coerce his partner into entering swinging or open marriage....and find that his reluctant partner becomes more interested in the lifestyle than he was. Efforts to shut things down meet resistance because this is heady stuff.

*Even if both or either partner is able to compartmentalize the sex and emotions....the other people involved are not able to. Extra sexual encounters turn into situations where the extra partners are attached and don't want to let go. They become emotionally involved and it can lead to stalking, suicide attempts, and other complete craziness.

These are just a few of the complications that arise....there are so much more.

It's interesting that you mentioned and quoted Peggy Vaughn. Not only have I been to her lectures, but I've met the lady in person. You pulled out one isolated quote: "Honesty is the trump card for preventing affairs," says Peggy Vaughan, who has studied affairs for more than two decades. Her Web site is dearpeggy.com. "Make a commitment to sharing your attractions and temptations."

But you didn't put it into context. Peggy Vaughn wrote "The Monogamny Myth" and she recognizes that it's extremely hard to remain faithful to each other when we live in a society that says it's supports monogamy when it really doesn't. Instead, it glorifies and facilitates affairs. She most certainly DOES recommend honesty about temptations and fantasies both before and after affairs, because before an affair....it can help couples PREVENT them from destroying their marriages....and after affairs...it is one of the building blocks for recovery. Peggy Vaughn is one of the most respected researchers in marriage advocacy today....and she stanchly supports monogamy and helps people to navigate the challenges that living in an unsupportive society creates.

Dealing with reality is absolutely better than dealing with lies. I would like to commend you again for being up front about all of this....but please....look at ALL of reality, not just those parts that support your stance. Recognize that right now you're probably not at your most logical because of what's happening internally. Look at the timing of your thoughts about monogamy. Look beyond the idealism of sexual exploration without limits....and the possible consequences that are impossible to predict or prevent. Look at the ethics of more than just honesty....and make an informed decision about whether sexual restraint has a place in marriage...and why. Look honestly at more than just the challenge of monogamy, but the risks that opening your marriage creates. Fidelity has many many layers that protect marriage....honesty is one of them....but only one of them.

Ms. Spank....I am not a judgemental person. I understand that the world is full of people who march to the beat of a different drummer. I respect people's right to choose. But I will tell you this....that I would be far less worried about your choice if the timing were not so suspect. This kind of change in philosophy timed around the attraction to someone else is honesty designed around convenience and affair biochemistry....not philosophy or belief. Wrapping it up NOW around a philosophy that facilitates sexual exploration is untimely and by my estimation...unethical.

If this is truly something you'd like to explore (polyamory, open marriage)....are you willing to separate it from this particular man???? If not....it's about the man and not the philosophy. If you truly think monogamy is too restrictive....then sit down with your husband and renegotiate your marriage....make new vows....and mutually agree to what the future will hold. But this man....remains off limits. If you can't do that....then you're not really interested in an open marriage....you're just interested in the man. And if you're really interested in the man....then honesty has no hope of protecting your marriage...and your marriage is at great risk and vulnerable to your desire for this particular man.

Good Luck

Lost Husband. Can you delete your post above. You commented on a post I edited. I felt after posting I didn't want to dwell or explain anymore but just offer a solution. I'd much rather just keep it as pure as it is now. Thanks.

S

Mr. Spank,

I want to hear it all. Please don't spend too much time figuring out what and how to say things. I certinaly have been rather blunt and painfully honest. I could stand to spend some time tailoring my words better.

I will see and write to you on MS.

All,

Thanks all. I have read the entire website. Read and internalized many of your advice. We have printed the questionaires. I have a near understanding of M.B. and all it's concepts.

As always there is a lot more to our lives, too much to write it all down here!

Nobody is a saint in this marriage. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Mr. Spanks wife

If sainthood were a requirement for marriage....we'd all be outta luck!! Neither of you is being condemned or maligned....we really are only seeking to help and explore the challenges. Thanks for sharing your situation....hope that some of the replies were helpful and that you'll let us know how things work out in the future. Blessings to you both.

Sure I can, if you'd like me too, but that doesn't change the thoughts or feelings. Your feelings and thoughts are what they are, they are true and valid. Just like in this situation, there are things that are less than ideal but that is where we are at and that's what we have to work with. So rather than try to create a false world, let's tackle things head on. Either you or MrsSpanky can create an awesome environment but if in creating that you also damage yourself, then what's been created?

Through this process you are going to be mad, you are going to feel hurt, you are going to have frustration, a key for y'all is creating a safe environment where y'all can share this, receive support, and work through it. Otherwise, the marriage killer will move in, and in my humble opinion that killer is typically named "Resentments".

Another thing to remember and this goes for both of you. Every action has a reaction and there are natural consequences whether they be the feelings of another or whatever. While one shouldn’t express these in a disrespectful manner, it would be equally as damaging not to express them at all. By not making these known one would be enabling the other’s damaging behavior while at the same time likely building resentments.

This is one of CarolynsFingers' husband's early threads.

Wow - the board was very different in 2005. Posters spent quite some time discussing whether the open marriage they had was a good idea.

Yes this was an old post. And the thing I find most interesting is that my husband had been guilty of all the above but behind my back... and I was handing it back to him on a silver platter. He has always had some female friend on the side. I have never been able to tell how far it went. He always said he wouldn't know how it felt because it hadn't happened to him. So I posed that what if I did the same... And I had known a guy then that was aware of my husband... and his ways. And so I thought lets make a run and see what he thinks... And he came here. The most interesting thing is that I never defended myself.

He to this day tries to get me to agree to a threesome and then some. I have never and would not. I invited him to re read this recently.

And on to Sugar Cane... a forum moderator I would guess. Be careful people.

What I thought was really astonishing from reading the posts is that the other posters were acting like it was a VIRTUE to be "honest" about being bad. So many of the people were very morally confused apparently. Being "honest" about being bad does not make it a good thing.


Be careful? Can you explain?

Yep I think my honesty is stand up compared to the hundreds of people already in the middle of or recovering from an affair. As there sure are a crap load of posts on the Infidelity forum compared to the Builders 101 . I can say... I didn't have an affair.

How many spouses are on here right this minute trying to understand why their partner had an affair? 59 people are in that forum right now. If only their spouse had said... You have met none of my needs, And I am considering an affair. And it was prevented before it happened.

I am glad you didn't have an affair, however, honesty does not mitigate adultery or any other crime. I can be "honest" about robbing the bank, but it does not mitigate my crime or make bank robbery virtuous. There is nothing wrong with telling your spouse you are unhappy; but there is no excuse for an affair. Adultery is disgusting and vile.


There is no excuse for an affair. We know why 99% of people have affairs: they have poor boundaries around the opposite sex. The other 1% are the rare birds who are actually trolling for action. All the "need meeting" in the world will make no difference if a spouse has poor boundaries.

So the proposed adultery was a threat to get him in line?

As far as SugarCane pulling up this old thread, you realize that Dr Harley is a fan of being complete open and transparent, especially about infidelity? That applies to forum posting as well.

She did nothing wrong.