You are right but even this 16% is still a very high number that clearly demonstrates the need for mandatory DNA testing. Better to know now and resolve the issue than to hide the truth and let it explode decades later with much more devastating results.

TMCM

Ah, but 2Long...we can also imagine a utopian universe where there is no infidelity...
Imagine a man having the oppotunity to decide at that if he was going to raise this wonderful child...instead of being forced to be a fraudulent parent.

It would be a good thing 2long...for eveyone.

BTW...we already take fingerprints, footprints, and blood type. DNA is not like IQ. It is a physical property of your pysical being. It's a natural extension of positively identifying you.

Low

Ark,

Don't you think that it is precisely that kind of attitude that is the one WWs count on to guilt their unsuspecting BH in order to hide the truth from them? If honest women were to demand DNA testing after giving birth, the dishonest ones would be under a lot of pressure to either follow suit or come clean once and for all. As a famous pop psychologist is fond of saying "Those who have nothing to hide, hide nothing"


TMCM

Again, you obfuscate the issue, ark. I don't see how this has ANY bearing on the discussion at hand.

Low...I am not obfuscating any issue...
I 100000000000000% answered toomuchcoffee's mans direct question about hospital mixups...

I don't feel at this time I can honestly say that in all cases it is always best for the parent to know true paternity and would rather save my OPINION on a case to case base...

which in NO WAY means I condone women hiding paternity

I also will not apply blanket statements

to all marriages should be saved...
once a cheater always a cheater..
all affairs must be revealed ..though I have only come accross one or two that I thought it would do great damage to reveal at that time....

I find hiding paternity repulsive...and evil...but there may times that disclosing visits more evil on the innocent...

even toomuchcoffee man brings out the damage done on revealing to the innocent child...so it is hard for me to understand how that serves the children well...all the time.....

it is wrong to hide to it..
that ia my opinion...
but my opinion is that there are times when this information is better served disclosed and times when it reaks only havoc and chaos that have huge detrimental effects...
therefor logically it may even be there are times when there is no real need to know...

call my hypocritical
call me dishonest
call moral relativism...

I also believe that I can hold that belief without starting down some slippy slope of deceiving my spouse...for this in not applicable to my spouse....

I don't care...
I'm not pigeon holing myself to the wall on this issue...

I can even be way wrong on this.....
but so what...


and as much as you want to loworbit, pin this down as a women thing you don't understand...
to me in my never to be humble opinion there is the tiniest smattering of ego driven if it ain't my SPERM...it ain't my child....theme that keeps popping in to my head...

villify the women
saint hood the "NON SPERM DONOR

and if that newly found out non sperm donor reeks havoc, pain and chaos on the that child..breaks up the family villifies the mother to destruction. it's still just the ****** fault from the get go..........and all done in the name of truth...

and again I am NOT advocating not ever telling...but I am not applying a blanket sentiment either...

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />now there's some spiffy little christmas cheer topic for you....

arkie...

toomuch..

I am telling you
I would not marry
nor would I sleep with a man that would demand a paternity test for our children....

I would expect that my spouse would disclose that before marriage that upon pregnancy he would expect paternity testing...

And I would probably KEEP the fabulous diamond...and tell him good bye...

and if he sprung it on me after marriage...and demanded paternity testing...I would seek an annulment....


ARK

LO:

"Ah, but 2Long...we can also imagine a utopian universe where there is no infidelity...
Imagine a man having the oppotunity to decide at that if he was going to raise this wonderful child...instead of being forced to be a fraudulent parent."

Sure, I can also imagine that universe. I still have hope, after all. Just not much anymore.

I also agree that it's better 2 be fully informed about the kids you're raising. I referred 2 Usedlongago's sitch a ways back. If you're not familiar with his story, you (and others) might want 2 look it up (you'll have 2 go back a few years).

Thankfully, I don't have this particular problem 2 deal with. And I'm not likely 2 have kids in the fu2re. I doubt I'd get M'd again, assuming I DV, but who knows.

Got plenty of issues around dishonesty and the past that I'm trying not 2 keep me down.

-ol' 2long

Wow. Now would it be fair if I went out and had another child and forced my wife to pay for it?

And your saying above that if the man does not want to pay for the child from another man that it should not be discloused?? Wow I guess this must be a woman guy thing because I cannot think of anything more devistating to a man.

If that is the case than Affairs should not be discloused. A person could say the following: Because the BS reeks havoc, pain and chaos on the that child..breaks up the family villifies the WS so people should not disclouse the Affair.

And did the non sperm donor make her screw other men?? Why is it his fault she is out doing that.

I think it is strange we want men to be accountable for fathering kids but women need not be accountable. They can have abortions and if it is not their husband then they can hide it and make him pay for their infidelity.

Kind of sucks to be a guy in this case!

Ark,

You are such a girl <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> but I love ya anyways.

TMCM

no I am saying I am not applying a blanket opinion period...and that timing is everything....

that's is ALL I am saying...

and I will not placed in quaisi blanket leaps of logic...
I say each case holds great merit...
each story needs to be examined..

ARk

Umm..have you read any at the pregnancy/child board? There are wives paying for their husbands OC.

All Ark is saying is that sometimes and under some circumstances the truth is more harmful

Personally,I don't think mandatory DNA tests are necessary.If a man questions the validity of the unborn baby his wife/lover/GF were carrying,he can always request a test.If there is just cause.But I think it would be a sad commentary to make women do this without question after each birth like we are all a bunch of liars.

If my H ever asked me to do a DNA test,I would be very sad that he didn't trust me but if for some reason he felt strongly about it,I would do it.It might put a wedge between us though.I also believe in that if there is nothing to hide,then you would do the test.Just like you would give your BS all e-mail passwords and accounts,etc.Being open and honest is important.I have nothing but disgust for those women who lie about the paternity of a child if they *know.

Men are 50% of the baby making process.So in any case,I believe it is only fair that he know whether or not it was planned.

I'm done having children though so I don't believe I will be in this predicament.

O

I am a girl..
and I am really really pro man..

I dread the fact that my two sons live in a world that women can kill their babies....

the mixed messages it gives to men and their value on this earth....
is mind boggling....

and there are men happy to let women choose...who demean their own role in the equasion..

on and on it goes
round and round it goes...

it's all sad...

thats why human sexuality IS such a gift
and should be treated as thus....
with great great respect...

and a lot of fun to.......

ARK

Ok let's have some valid examples for right now, the only valid one for hiding the truth about paternity is the case in which the BH is an abusive and dangerous man with a known history of domestic violence.

Let's be real for a minute and acknowledge that the truth sometimes has a way of coming out decades after the events took place and like 2Long mentioned with UsedLongAgo's case, it did so with very devastating results. Now BOTH sons no longer want anything to do with her and neither want their own children to continue their relationship with their grandmother. Really sad story considering that if she had been honest since the beginning, all of this would not have happened.

TMCM

I think the argument about paternity testing is boiling down to:

Whose interests are paramount...those of the child, or those of the 'father'?

In some cases - for example where the mother may have reason to fear for her child's life should the deception be revealed - the mother may consider it in the child's best survival interests to conceal.

I think it's safe to say...almost all mothers would put the survival of their child above the dignity of their spouse. And above the survival of themselves, if it comes to that. The biological bond is stunningly strong.

Of course, not many OM babies get murdered by angry husbands. But some do. And many are accepted but never nurtured by their 'fathers'. I wonder how many children who have fatal accidents are not the natural children of the male parent?

I suspect there's a deep atavistic fear in the mind of every woman that their child's security would be much reduced if the 'father' knew the truth.

There are many men who raise step-children with courage and intelligence. There are a few men who raise babies they know were conceived through their wife's infidelity (I'm thinking K here). But I wonder how many?

The male attitude to being cuckolded is understandable - it's not dissimilar to a woman's horror of her WH impregnating the OW - but the strength of feeling shown on this thread reveals that a woman DOES have reason to fear for her baby, if she suspects the paternity of the child.

The best she can hope for, normally, is to be dumped.

TA

PS. Just in case of doubt, both my children were quite definitely fathered by my H. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Hi 2!

Are you sure you mean "eschew?"

-AD

And if a woman I was dating told me something like that, I simply would never see her again.

-AD

Deleted...not relevant to building marriages

Ad..

so your position is that a man should ask a woman to marry him..

and you see nothing wrong within their marriage demanding she do a paternity testing...

so without other reason to believe of cheating you would demand it based on the belief she MIGHT or COULD cheat..
which we all can do..
but you will demand acts of proof with no other provocation except she is human...

guilty for being human....


insinuating that you trust her enough to have sex with her...BUT not enough that she isn't cheating....

why would a man in the first place marry someone he does not trust on the most intimate level..

how would that marriage survive to get to a true intimate level....

why should the women he marry carry the burdon of other women who may have cheated....

AD I respect fully that you would not marry a woman who won't succomb to paternity testing

I mean I respect your right to choose...and if you are honest with any woman prior to a marriage..

she has the right to agree to it
or disagree....
then that's fine....

I can tell you that I can not imagine my husband asking for such a thing with our three children...when there is absence of all logic as to why...

except for being human
I am potentially capable of enacting lots of hurtful sinful behaviors....
but I still maintain the ability to choose....
and to prove my value through my actions other than needle sticks and blood tests..
and if my actions on those level aren't enough...then in my opinion my marriage is already in huge crisis....

I guess I don't buy if not guilty then you wouldn't care..theory either

cause then you may as well inject yourself with microchips...put cameras in your house and tell the government...well since I don't do anything wrong..I don't MIND you watching

I never took it well in school when I lost my recess because of others behavior...
and I wouldn't take paternity testing in my marriage because others have cheated..

ARK

By the position you've taken on this issue, you have expressed a willingness to deceive your H given the proper circumstances.

That alone is enough to warrant not trusting you with something so fundamentally important.

What you call the ability to choose...is the ability to deceive without consequence if you deem it right in the circumstance. I don't believe you should be able to do that without consequence.

If one is able to justify the practice of cuckolding to protect the safety of one's child, then it is only a slight shift to justify it in cases where naming a more stable or reliable man as the father would ENHANCE the childs quality of life. Perhaps another man could send the child to Harvard?

Suppose a woman becomes pregnant by a man she knows will never be a good father because she knows the child will be raised in a stable home provided by her H or a superior provider. I don't believe women should have that choice...because it infringes on the basic human rights of another.

I understand your point about invasion of privacy. However, questions of paternity become relevant in custody and support cases...they become VERY public.



How many people do think have actually ever carried weapons and explosives on an airplane? I would venture that it's FAR less than 16%

Yet, we all agree that we should subject EVERY potetial passenger to rigorous screening in order to prevent the occasional shoe bomber.

We are subject to all manner of code all the time because of the potential for misbehavior of others. Sometimes we don't like it. This is no different.

I have to go to the hospital and pick up my husband. I have read through all this thread.

VERY VERY QUICKLY: We did not speak to my sister-in-law for almost 8 years. This paternity issue was revealed while we were not on speaking terms. We recently are on speaking terms because the three youngest daughters were molested by her most recent husband, that truth resulted in a quick divorce, and our being reunited for the children's sake. My 7 and 9 year old neices, I believe, need me in their lives. Revealing the truth likely jeapardizes these newfound relationships that instantly bonded. We both love all these children very very much. I nannied the oldest children when they were babies. The split resulted in our not seeing them for their entire teen years.

The two oldest daughters have a rivalry. The biological daughter is supermodel beautiful and a bit ditzy, it's hard not to love her though, she's very blythe, charming, but works and keeps a job, she's really so much like my husband. The non-biological daughter is beautiful, reserved, quiet, dependable, serious, wants to be a police woman.

I have not decided not to reveal. I just don't know what to do or how to do it--it falls on me to do it because none of the family members will do it. I have seen the parent-father just twice in almost 15 years, but I recently spoke with him on the phone when he called to borrow a halloween costume that my husband made and won prizes with.

My sister-in-law became a born-again Christian as a result of her guilt over this issue. (Maybe you can see some of my own skepticism over BACs.)

What are the pure motivations for doing this? I cannot just rush in like a fool. I'd better be sure my motives are pure, because I stand to lose a lot including my integrity no matter which way I go. How can I protect those innocents involved in this who are likely to get hurt?

You don't know how much this hurts us. Did this decision help my husband to decide on having his affair with the help of the biological father? It could be so. The lies were ok in that case, right?

I've been burned by the truth before.

My oldest sister got pregnant by a really nice guy, my parents did not approve. So she married a LOSER who raised the baby as his own, knowing he didn't father it, and proceeded to sexually molest my oldest sister's two baby sisters (ie me and my baby sister.)

Eventually my husband worked with the biological parent. He had lost his leg in an accident, married an older woman he dearly loved, and was heartbroken when they could not have children of their own. One night at a picnic I told him about his beautiful daughter. I had already told my niece about her biological father. She chose never even to meet with the biological father, further breaking his heart. My neice and I have a rocky relationship to this day, and much of it is due to the rivalry between her and her sister, the biological daughter.

So I've been through this before and my big honest integrity didn't help me in that situation. Though I don't feel guilty about it I still believe it was the right things to do.

Another honesty burn: My two childhood best friends, I've referred to them before. They are sisters, one I call "my messed up friend" in previous threads. Her husband cheated with my husband's FOW some 22 years ago. I didn't tell. When she found out she didn't speak to me for more than 6 months, man that hurt.

So when her younger sister, my other childhood best friend, had a boyfriend who hung out with my husband and he revealed to my husband he had been boinking her roommate, I sat on it for a week, but when the time was "right" I tearfully told her what I knew. Everyone denied it, she was so hurt she that she accused me of lying about it and hit me in the face. At that point I just said ok I lied. WTF!?

Later she came to my house while I was in bed sick, and "told on me" to my husband, who set her straight, that IS WHAT HER BOYFRIEND TOLD HIM. Unfortunately that hurt her all over again, and to this day the ex-boyfriend maintains we both lied about it. Whatever. She and I have talked about this at great length and have come to a reasonable understanding about our different perspectives on it that we can both live with. That's just us.

Finally, the last thing I want is to hurt MY NIECE. In fact in the grand scheme of things I really don't care that much about any of the adults in the picture. The parent-father is a nice guy, and was a great guy when I knew him, he seems to continue to be that great guy from what I know, but I do not know him well enough to foresee the consequences of his knowing the truth.

Sorry but first I must protect my niece. I do feel that at some point she needs to know but her biological father is pretty much a low-life scum who on many occasions said he DID NOT WANT HER. Her parent-father is as in love with her as a father can be, I know that much.

I gotta go now. I'm interested in further responses. It makes my heart very very heavy that i hold this dispicable power.