I am not an advocate of mandatory anything. I don't think mandatory DNA testing should be required.

If one questions the paternity of his children it is a rather simple thing to establish. All that is needed is a couple cotton swabs. The man swabs his mouth, he swabs the child's mouth and he mails the two specimens off.

He doesn't need his wife's permission to do this and the wife need never be tested. This is called a motherless test. From a website doing such a test:

"Tested Parties
In a standard paternity test, the tested parties include a child, the alleged father, and the mother (called a trio). The cost for this DNA test is ****. We start the testing process with only a $****non-refundable partial payment.

The mother’s participation in the paternity test helps to exclude half of the child’s DNA, leaving the other half for comparison with the alleged father’s DNA. However, we can perform a paternity test without mother’s participation (called a motherless), which involves additional analysis, without any additional charge. Results are equally conclusive whether or not the mother participates. Motherless tests are guaranteed to have at least a 99.9% probability of paternity for inclusions and 100% for exclusion."

I see this no differently that what is advocated on this site with respects to privacy. We advocate that people that don't have anything to hide, won't mind snooping. This is just technological snooping. Why would an honest woman fear such testing? It makes me wonder.

I too would NEVER marry a woman that would refuse to prove paternity. NEVER. I've seen too much these past few years here on MB to trust anyone completely. We are human and we err. If my wife were to stray and conceive someone else's child, I would want to know.

A father is more that a sperm donor, as some here have so quaintly put it, but I will posit that a father is also more than an ATM.

I choose to NOT father children that aren't biologically mine. That is MY choice, as is should be.

loworbit...

the consequence is that my soul hangs in balance...
it hangs in balance whether or not I am married or not..

married or not I am human
married or not I always have ability to choose to do wrong..

the consequence never ever has been my husband or any other human being on this planet...

the consequence is ME and MY salvation....
nothing and no one external...

I am not faithful because of mr. ark..
I am faithful because to do otherwise greatly jeopardizes my relationship with God....
which is not to say that I don't understand the pain and afront this would cause to my family.....
but it is Gods command to not commit adultery...
there are no proper circumstances to deceive my husband..
unless you count hiding presents...




people riding airplanes can and should be subjected to any and all rules the companies decides...consumers can decide to fly or not...there is no constitutional right called the freedom to fly...

my marriage vows were made to God...
I honor them..
if a man does not believe in the vows I spoke then he should not marry me..
..which he is free to choose to not...
I am free to choose not to marry...

ARK

Then you and the other kids should have not become co-conspirators protecting the guilty kid. The teacher wanted to impart the lesson that those who shield the guilty are just as guilty as they are. As I stated in another post on this thread, the laws of this and other nations do not tolerate co-conspirators and punishes them along with the guilty party.

How many honest married women know of other married women who gave birth to a child from their lover? From my talks with my W and other women, quite a large number. If these honest married women do not hold their less than honest sisters accountable for their actions, then why are you surprise that more men are distrustful of their own women?

TMCM

How did I in Gods name become a co-conspirator...
boy ARK you should have got in a big bru-ha ha in third grade when you didn't stop that group of kids from standing on there desks...

what a responsibility shirker I have become from that moment on....

I never did protect the other kids...
I used peer pressure as applicable to say

shad-up you moron or we are going to lose our recess...

it didn't always work though..and sometimes I still lost my recess....

and I don't HAVE to like lose my recess over some kids moronic behavior...

liking it would be warped...


How many honest married women know of other married women who gave birth to a child from their lover?


honestly I know NONE....
and perhaps they don't tell me because the KNOW I wouldn't condone....

I am no co-conspirator because I don't KNOW anyone...
sorry but I don't...

obviously because I have never had the occurance to deal with or be in this situation myself or by second hand knowledge....

I am suddenly dishonest....
and deceptive to my husband...

fourteen years of marriage today...
for a gift should I give paternity testing so he can sleep at night and save himself from worrying night after night that he is not the father....of our three kids...
because I AM A WOMAN...there for potentially guilty and suspect........from the get go..........

ARK

Ark,

If I were to use your logic then I shoud be equally offended by the laws of this land that hold me, a man, responsible for the financial support of my daughters until they reach adulthood, all because of a small group of irresponsible men abandoned their children. I'm a good H and father who would NEVER abandon my girls emotionally/financially laws or no laws. Should I be paying for the actions of my less than honest brothers? All because I am a man?

TMCM

no you shouldnt' toomuch..

the laws don't APPLY to you for you are financially responsible

they don't hold men who are financially responsible to a thing...if they did then you would be asked to turn over all assets for someone to assess and police your spending to see if you couldn't have saved a buck here or there AT STARBUCKS ON COFFEE!!!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> and then spent it on your children...

you aren't paying anything because of your brothers....there should be no offense to you..it is not applicable....

I have only practiced fidelity with my marriage...
but I should have to prove paternity on my children because I am a woman....

I am not offended by laws that offer men that opportunity

I am not offended by men asking for paternity based on actions that lead them to suspect questionalibility

I am offended by asking me who has participated in no actions that question my childrens paternity being subjected to it because I am female...


and if MY husband were to request or require such a thing based on NOTHING ..
there's something very fishy in denmark then...


ARK

Scuse me, how about some help here.

The only time I've known such things I have TOLD. Now I need to know why I should tell when my own niece WILL be hurt by MY Action.

Ask me more questions, but GodDamn it, I've been struggling with this for a long time, I didn't tell before she was 21. She is 21 now, as of recently. I've been struggling with my own marriage during this time, and it's been very very difficult to get over being a betrayed wife.

Give me some reasons I should destroy my niece's relationship with the only father she's ever known. He's done paying child support, I seriously doubt he would sue for $ considering the other man does not WANT a relationship with her.

I don't know any other women in this kind of crappy situation hence my anger at my sister-in-law. Never did care much for her. I see her as a very selfish and stupid individual BAC or not.

I have no problem with submitting to a paternity test, personally. The woman I know who've been asked for one, were happy to submit to it, while thinking what a dunce the guy is. But I don't have much experience in that either. Just my sister and her brutal, stupid, cheating ex-husband. She was happy to submit to a pat. test because it just proved what a [censored] he is.

Back to my dilemma, anyone got some real help? Otherwise I'm going to think maybe it's best to let sleeping dogs lie. Would I really want to know about an infidelity my fwh had 10 years ago, when he was treating me well? Not like last summer when he treated me like dogpoop for the first time in our 24 years together. If it wasn't with the ho from last summer, I can honestly say, I have enough to deal with, I don't want to know.

10,

For the life of me I just can't understand what you are asking.

Is it you want to know if you should tell your niece that the man that she thought was her father really isn't?

I don't know. You niece is 21. She is an adult. Do you think adults have the right to know the truth about their lives?

It isn't your responsiblility to tell your niece. I'm not really buying the complicity argument either.

I think that you should probably tell this man that has falsely belived for 21 years that your niece is his. I think that HE has a right to know that he is a cuckold.

I certainly would want to know. Maybe it is a guy thing.

And this is the problem, 10...you can't.

There are tow principles...IMPORTANT principles...at work here...

1) A man has a RIGHT to know if children he is raising are his. If they are not, it is called paternity fraud.

2) The girl has a RIGHT to know her genetic heritage so she can form an accurate picture of "self".

It is my belief that anyone who decides to keep this information from them are denying them their basic human rights.

I am undecided about the situation where a man is unaware that he has fathered a child and the mother's situation precludes telling him. I question whether a man who is not required to support a child he doesn't know exists is being wronged in any way.

However, the CHILD will eventually have to be told. It is their basic right.

In any event, I don't believe ANY man should put his name to a birth certificate without being fully informed. I don't believe ANY woman should have the authority to list a man's name on a birth certificate without his agreement and consent.

Therefore, 10, I believe you are preventing at least one person from having the information they need to live an informed life. I hope you will eventually find a time to at least tell the girl.

Low

I love AA steps .... they have helped save my marriage!

[color:"blue"] Step 9

Step 9:  We made direct amends to such persons whenever possible, except when to do so would injure them or ourselves.
[/color]

Someone brought up the analogy of searches at the airport. Sure, everyone walks through the screener, but there are also more invasive random searches of individuals, rather than profiled searches. I have been pulled aside more than once while travelling with my entire family. I certainly wasn't a risk, but political correctness being what it is.... It made no sense to pull me aside, but it happened.

It seems that is what some people think should happen with every pregnancy. Check 'em all! That flies in the face of logic.

If my H suddenly wanted to check my children's paternity, I would say "sure". I have nothing to hide, but it wouldn't exactly endear him to me.

As 10Swords pointed out, I truly think that the truth-teller's motivations should be examined. There are some truths that can hurt the innocent while making the vindictive smile. Should they come to light, simply because they are the truth? IMO, no. Each case must be examined on its own merits.

And I don't know of any man who is unwittingly raising another man's child, despite one poster's statistics, but I do know many women who are working to support a step-child and a few fathers (cough cough) who are not paying child support.

My parents (father and stepmother) raised me, but they knew the score. I always knew I was adopted and that I have some half siblings out there. I have no desire to spread the truth and inform them. Does that make me a liar?

[color:"blue"] In order to make amends to those people you have harmed, you need to develop a set of behaviors which will facilitate the amends-making process. These behaviors include:

*

Ability to let go of past hurt.
*

Trust in the goodness of mankind.
*

Trust in the goodness and mercy of a Higher Power to give you strength to continue to be honest with yourself and others.
*

Letting go of the need to control and fix the uncontrollable and non-fixable.
*

Letting go of fear of the future.
*

Allowing yourself to be vulnerable to personal growth.
*

Ability to take a risk.
*

Letting go of resentment for past hurts.
*

Accepting personal responsibility for self.
*

Discontinuing blaming others for your problems.
*

Letting go of anger over the past.
*

Taking a risk that people do change.
*

Establishing a personal spirituality.
*

Open, honest, and assertive communication with others concerning hurts, pains, and offenses experienced.
*

Identifying and replacing the irrational beliefs that block your ability to make amends. 
[/color]

I think cleaning up our own messy lives is far more important than outing someone else's past mistakes in ways that may cause great harm to others .... who put me or you in charge of everything?

Making this sort of call is pretty personal and involves many other people and layers of potential harm and potential benifit.

I would ask God for guidance on something like this.

That's my opinion .... take this very slowly and carefully ... you can't go pick up all the feathers once you have sliced that pillow open and the wind has carried the feathers far and wide.

You don't know that this information will destroy the relationship. Your niece is an adult and may very well decide to choose differently.

The key here is CHOICE.

The situation is a fact. Adults deserve to live in truth and dignity. There is nothing noble in allowing someone to believe something about themselves that is not true. It is wrong to deny someone the ability to CHOOSE for theirself. That's what you are doing to your niece.

For example, let's say your niece, beautiful as she is, couldn't carry a tune in a bucket. And everyone around her knows this. Now your niece may begin making life decisions assuming that she is a good singer. Do you think it's in her best interest to know that she can't sing? Even if it hurts her to find out?

Ignorance is either bliss or it is not. When it comes to information that affects my life, I would be very angry with people who kept information from me. I wouldbe angry because I was denied the right to make decisions that were rightfully mine to make. I wouldn't give a damn about your intentions. The degree of that anger would likely be linked to the amount of time the secret was kept.

Step 9: We made direct amends to such persons whenever possible, except when to do so would injure them or ourselves.

Ooooo, I get angry when people use this step to keep secrets. My H's best friend felt my H should have not told me about his ONS because of this step. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

Pep, no disrespect to you, I just don't agree with you on this.

This is a very serious thing, this man is fathering and paying CS for a child that "may" not be his. And if so, he has been injured secretly for 15 yrs already. THAT MAN HAS BEEN ROBBED. And the child has been injured by not being able to know his true father. And his true father has been injured for 15 yrs by being withheld the knowledge he has a son he should be fathering and paying CS for.

What a mess.

I say expose this news to him, have paternity tests done.
The true father revealed. Courts to handle if CS should be paid back!!!!!!

Then decide when and how to tell the child, at this time or later in his life.

And if the the paternity test shows that the child belongs to OM, let the EXW handle the reprecussions of her lies/secrets herself.

Lady

Wow, I never thought I would agree with LowOrbit. Telling the truth has always been very important to me. I don't think we have the right to decide whether it would be hurtful, whether the other person is strong enough to hear it, blah, blah, blah. That's how liars are born.

Ladies, I like a lot of BH did not suspect my XWW [first W] of cheating for I trusted her completely. She even accused me several times of cheating on her <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />. Once I found out the truth, I had DNA tests perform to find out if my girls were biologically mine. Not with the purpose of washing myself from the responsibility of fatherhood but so that it could be used when I filed for divorce and sought custody of our girls. My divorce attorney, a woman [while not guaranteeing anything] told me that it would definitely be a huge huge plus for me that knowing full well that they weren't, I would still want to continue being their father. The results came back positive that I was their bio-dad but I can tell you right here and now and before God that if the results had come back negative, I would still love them the same. As I said before, love knows no DNA.

The problem I see is that the innocent OC is being USED as an excuse to shield the WW who in many cases continues the affair with her OM while her unknowing BH is bonding with a baby that is not biologically his. If a mandatory DNA test was carried out immediately after every birth, it would blow the covers and expose the affair and a decision by BOTH spouses could eventually be made to either rebuild the marriage or end it.

TMCM

That's a good question, Pep...

IF you are the sole possessor of such information and in a position to divulge that information, then I believe you become responsible for it..."in charge" if you will. People should receive information of this nature from people that love them...and love should be the reason you do this.

Yes, it should be a matter of prayer. Yes, it could be very difficult. I know all about having to share difficult information that damages peoples lives.

I see this as a direct correlation to my choosing to divulge my last contact with the OW. The consequences of me NOT sharing that would've been nil...and we would still be working on our marriage today. But I did the hard thing...the RIGHT thing...and told her. The results were disaterous...

My wife had information she may not have wanted, but she was given what she needed to make a choice that was rightfully hers to make.

People should not be shielded from the truth. Ever.

Low

If a mandatory DNA test was carried out immediately after every birth, it would blow the covers and expose the affair and a decision by BOTH spouses could eventually be made to either rebuild the marriage or end it.

so therefor toomuch I should have my children tested...

ARK^^

And you have NO idea how surprised I am to find myself on the side of this controversy that I am.

In reading the other post, I fully expected the poster to receive guidance that truth and honesty are important. I would've never imagined people would've advocated fraud and deception - and then refuse to acknowledge that they have...in the name of "what's best for the child".

Kudos to those who have at least admitted it was wrong but they would do it anyway...at least I know something about where they are coming from when I read their future posts.

I can't tell you how this makes me feel about those same folks that unwaveringly advocated disclosure to me...it tells me they didn't care about the welfare of MY children...

They have lost significant credibility in my eyes...

please note:

truth and opinion
are NOT one in the same

and

timing is very very important

as is motive and method