Ladysheep:

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Why would I feel disrespected by a simple difference of opinion?

makes no sense ! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

Absolutely agree...
Paternity fraud either is or it isn't...therefore, hardly a matter of opinion.

I thought this thread began with something based on hearsay

not even admissable in court

I dont' think people are against telling...

but in my opinion timing is a factor....

Also people especially those who are divorcing apply non realistic expectations on to children that they are NOT capable of processing based on their ages..
AND
they apply grown up thought processes and coping mechanisms that adults possess unto children as well..........

if the timing of the truth stands to cause great damage to children.....
and I am obiviously speaking of older children in extremely important formative years...and has direct impact on their safety and wellbeing....

then it may come to be that in the NAME of less damage the truth which has already been unfairly with-held...be with held a little longer...
that is my only global position on this...
non specific..

this is NOT applicable to adults and their messed up affairs...

this is APPLICABLE to direct relationships of interrupting direct parental involvement with a child based on GENETICS!!!!!!!!!!!

they are not the same..

which is not to say divorces don't cause changes to relationships...
but the changes are external and NOT direct internal changes that can be difinitive moments of forever severing a relationship based on SPERM!!!!!!!!!!!!!

destroying a childs foundational relationship is NOT the same as divorce or seperation and in my opinion are not comparable...

I have listened to hundred of WS reasons for an affair..
listened to them all..
and never once have I heard a case that has swayed my opinion that the affair can help any issue and is never ever ever justifiable...

but tell me a story of a fifteen year old boy...on the verge of losing his mother to her own self destruction....a step father ready to divorce....and saying that THIS time in life is a good time to tell the dad that he may not be the dad...and risk great trauma onto that boys only stable adult....all in the name of truth and the right to know...

my opinion is you waited this long...dayum well better wait a little longer...
and as creepy as that is..it's creepier to risk the only adult in his life....that is thinking of HIS best interest..


and if that makes me a dishonest whatever...so be it..
I will wear it proudly..
cause it's only my opinion



My wife had information she may not have wanted, but she was given what she needed to make a choice that was rightfully hers to make.

People should not be shielded from the truth. Ever.

your wife is an adult...she has many many many avenues of choice and potential and resources to make decisions that she can be responsible...
\children do not....and applying the same freeedom to grownups is exactly what I find offensive...

my 12 year old will be happy I found a new honey to make me happy...if they love me they will....

if a grownup can deal with it ..
there for so can a child

how many WS truly believe thier children only want their parents happiness...

what a crock of caa-caa that is...
children aren't developementally able to work outside of their egos to even process it through their brains that way...

but we apply that ability errounsously all time...and never realize the fears that haunt them at night....

new study after new study comes out month after month about the damage of divorce.....
and we refuse to read it or believe it....

for surely "our" children are different...

so obviously since we want to "believe they handle divorce...
surely they handle the life altering info that dad's not their dad...at the whim of speaking the truth ALWAYS and NO MATTER..which we all agree NO ONE really ever does....

do you realize that until a child is ten years old they aren't even capable of developementally understanding sarcasm....

I was shocked when I read that study...for I truly believe my seven year old understood sarcasm...

but she can't
she can APPEAR to...but when you really really process it with her...she can't do it....

affairs and grownups and all their crap is NOT the same playing field as children and the crap the grownups visit upon them....................

children are the most powerless portion of society...and sometimes they MUST be protected from the truth...so they have a shot in he## at being an adult....

which doesn't mean lie to them forever...
but in some cases it may mean prolonging the truth....

ARK^^

Are there situations where you believe you are justified in withholding the truth from another individual who it profoundly affects?

THE TRUTH ??? Like you have in your hand the official DNA report?

or

the truth ... that someone told you but may not be true and might be from their biased point of view?

Nope, not hearsay...either proven or direct testimony.

Even so, if a married man is seen having lunch with another female...or for that matter, coming out of a hotel...should the observers notify his wife? It is, after all, not PROOF of an affair.

I fully expected the poster to receive guidance that truth and honesty are important. I would've never imagined people would've advocated fraud and deception - and then refuse to acknowledge that they have...in the name of "what's best for the child".

so low so you see that "post"

that even though we know this for a fact..

1. mom is emotionally unavailable to nuture her children right now at this time in her life due to her own emotional crisis....

2. Step-Dad has a good chance of being divorced...either by her or by his own actions...

3. fifteen year old has one dad ONE DAD who he believes is dad....who "MAY" not be dad.....at the exact moment he probably needs that one dad more than anything...


that this is the time to tell the truth...that this is the best moment to let the truth ring free...

no matter the added chaos
no matter the fall out
no matter the damage of now THREE damaging adults in this kids life...

and MY OPINION that THIS time in his life may not make be the best time to speak such truth...

which doesn't mean that it should never be spoken
which doesn't mean it isn't important...but really only important to the FATHER ....and not the kid...as far as he is concerned he has a dad.....but risking destruction all he has ever known and believed in the name truth...is the MOST important issue in this whole flubbed up matter...RIGHT NOW!!! TODAY ASAP

that's my opinion on that...

makes me a harpie of lies and deceipt applicable to every post from now on....

I'll take that risk.....

and keep to my opinion that truth does matter but in THIS one case.....their is NO real reason for the truth to be said right now...when things are already loaded with enough crap to destroy the child............



disclosing to a spouse and even the effects of disclosing to the children that an affair occurred ...

IS NOT
the same as disclosing to a child that who he believed his father was is now NOT his father....

divorced...seperated...you're still DAD....

reveal paternity.....at this time of chaos...
he now has NO ONE>...

no mom capable of picking up the emotional pieces..
no step dad....wallowing in his own pain to help the step child...

and now no dad..

not the same as divorcing parents...
not even close....

the foundation of family life being rocked by divorce doesn't change who dad is..
the foundation of dad not being dad rocks everything known to that child...for now they don't even have a dad....



ARK^^

I do believe in the eyes of the law even IF it is proven this child is not his by biology it is his child to support because they were married. At least that is the way it is in most states. Besides, we are talking about hearsay here not KNOWN absolute truth.

So If I belive that revealing an affair to my wife might lead to divorce, and it is pretty well proven that divorce HARMS children, then I am perfectly justified in hiding my affair until my children are adults. Then I can tell my wife about my past affair.

It all makes sense now.

Back to the question of paternity. Let's look at what Harley has to say.

"I have counseled and received letters from many women who became pregnant by their lovers, had the child, reconciled with their husbands and raised the child with the husband thinking it was his. I know about 20 children who live in my area who think they know who their fathers are, but they are wrong. What is written on their birth certificates is false information provided by their mothers to cover the result of an affair. In one case, the genetic characteristics of the child are so different than those of either the mother or her husband, that it's amazing that the husband has never suspected anything. He looks just like his real father.

I have also counseled and received letters from men who are devastated when they discover that their wives are pregnant with someone else's child, or discover after the child is born, that it is not his. And I have counseled and received letters from the lovers, who know the child is their's and are tormented by a desire to become involved in their child's life as it is growing up."

Here is a case study:
"Dear Dr. Harley,
I am 35, my husband is 37 and we have been married 12 years. We have three children, 9, 7 and 2. I love my husband, and don't want my marriage to end. But I am afraid that once he knows the truth, it will be all over for us.

Five years ago I had an affair. I never wanted to marry the man, but he brought some happiness into my life, and I needed him at that time. Unfortunately, I became pregnant with his child. I knew it was his, and so did he, because I had not had sex with my husband around the time the child was conceived, and my lover and I had sex quite often. Since my husband didn't keep track of our lovemaking, he was none the wiser.

My girl is now 2, and my affair is completely over. But my former lover knows that the girl is his, and is threatening to tell my husband so that he can become a part of her life.

My question is, should I tell my husband about the father of our little girl, or should I pray that my ex-lover just keeps quiet about it? I'm in a panic, so give me your answer as soon as possible.

R.G.

Response:

"I encourage couples to follow two policies that are essential to a good marriage: The Policy of Joint Agreement and the Policy of Radical Honesty. Without them, your marriage really doesn't have much hope for success. When you had your affair, you violated both of these rules. You were not honest about your affair, and it was something you did at his expense. You were both dishonest and thoughtless.

In spite of the fact that your marriage has not been guided by these rules up to this point, there's no time like the present to make an important mid-course correction. If you were to start following these guidelines now, your marriage would have a much greater chance for success.

You are backed up against a wall, and may be forced to be honest with your husband because of your lover's threats. But it may turn out to be the best thing that could have happened to you, because without his pressure, you may never have considered honesty as a realistic choice. As it turns out, it is what you should have done, even without risk of discovery. You should have told your husband who the real father was as soon as you were pregnant.

Let me review with you the Policy of Radical Honesty: Reveal to your spouse as much information about yourself as you know; your thoughts, feelings, habits, likes, dislikes, personal history, daily activities, and plans for the future.

This policy encourages you to keep nothing from your husband, not even the fact that you had an affair and that your daughter is not his.

If you had been guided by this rule from the time you were first married, none of this would have ever happened to you. Honesty would have protected you from the affair, since you would have told your husband about your feelings toward your lover early in the relationship. And your honesty would have set into motion a plan to avoid the affair. But it's not too late to be honest. You have years of marriage ahead of you, and the rest of your years together should be guided by truth, not lies.

I'm sure that your reluctance to be honest is due to your uncertainty regarding your husband's reaction. He may choose to divorce you, or at least hold it against you for the rest of your life. You may think that honesty will open a can of worms that once freed will invade your life and ruin it.

Once he knows the truth, will your husband remain married to you, or will he divorce you? What will he do in response to such a painful revelation? Those are just the first of many questions that have yet to be answered. There are many others: Should you tell your daughter who her real father is? Should he have visitation rights? Should he be asked to help support her?

There are no simple answers to any of these questions, but the Policy of Joint Agreement, the second rule that should have guided your marriage, gives you direction regarding the answers. According to the Policy of Joint Agreement, you and your husband should answer each of them in a way that takes each other's feelings into account. If one of you is not enthusiastic about one answer, consider others until you can agree.

Even the question of divorce should be decided together. I understand how unrealistic that may sound, but it's what the Policy of Joint Agreement guides you to do. You should not be divorced unless you are both enthusiastic about doing so. In fact, all of your husband's decisions following your disclosure should wait until you are both in agreement.

But what if he doesn't want to follow the Policy of Joint Agreement, you may ask. What if he just goes ahead and divorces me? Quite frankly, even though it may not be what you want, or what I would advise, I think your husband has a right to divorce you. And in some cases I've witnessed, when a wife revealed infidelity, her husband has done just that -- he divorced her. It doesn't happen very often, but it happens.

What is the alternative to truth? It's a marriage based on deceit. Do you want that kind of a marriage where you will always have the threat of disclosure hanging over you, where your husband might leave you if he knew the truth? Or, do you want a marriage where you have nothing to hide, and you and your husband are open and honest with each other?

If you decide to tell your husband the truth, and if he would like some guidance as to what to do next, suggest that he e-mail me his questions just as you did. I would be happy to offer him some direction."

So Harley advocates telling the truth even if it may hurt the children. Hummmm.

Let's take another look at what he thinks should be told to a young child of infidelity:

"Another very difficult issue is whether or not to tell your daughter who her real father is. Again, I suggest that you reach an enthusiastic agreement before you make a decision. The Policy of Radical Honesty applies only to a husband and wife, and not necessarily to children. While I tend to value honesty in all situations, if you and Robin can enthusiastically agree to deceive your child about her real father, it's up to you.

But if you want my advice, I would encourage you to be honest with Robin's daughter very early in life, so that there are no surprises later. I think it's more important for her to know she can trust what you say, than that she thinks you are her real father. Eventually, she is likely to know the truth anyway, and if she was consistently told that she was your daughter, the truth might undermine her trust of you. Regardless of who her genetic father may be, you will be the father that cares for her most for the rest of her life, and she will know that about you as you raise her into adulthood."

So Harley doesn't advocate LYING to the child to avoid unpleasant truth. Whew . . . I'm glad to know that.

So, to sum it up Harley believes that the cuckolded man should be told AND the child should be told.

I belive the same thing.

I gave you MY specific situation earlier...

My disclosure of an affair will have everlasting effects on my daughters...irrevocable. It will damage their security and their self image.

You keep talking about how the rules are different between adults.

You KNOW that affairs involve far more people...children included...than just the spouses.

The POTENTIAL consequences of disclosing affairs are divorce and, possibly, unforeseen mortal violence.

Disclosing my affair damaged my daughters - permanently. I am responsible for that. I own it.

Given that, do you still think I should've told?
Or perhaps, I should have waited until years later...when they were adults.

Low

My kid's birth mom was (is?) a heroin addict who turned tricks and continued to 'use' when pregnant with them ... LowOrbit ... is 5 years old the right age to inform them of this TRUTH? What about the budding puberty years? How about when they get a D- on their report card... good time? How about when they have been misbehaving and are being served consequences .... "Oh ... and while you are in your time out, I want you to know your mother was an addict who used lots of drugs while she was pregnant." How about telling them on their birthday?

What age?
What timing?
and most importantly .... WHO chooses the right time?

.....And by the way, the deed has been done .... but you know what I mean. We discussed this IN a therapy session with a very weird psychiatrist .... who insisted it was a good time IN FRONT OF THE KIDS so there was no going back... and I assure you ... it was a very wrong time. Our son was back in the psych hospital a few days later.

Let's say you know something about a child's paternity .... you have IN HAND sworn court testimony that Jimmy's Daddy is not who Jimmy calls "daddy" .... You tell the man Jimmy calls daddy that he is not the bio-dad .... and this man does nothing ...oh-my-gawd .... there is a TRUTH going to wasteNO ONE is going to tell little Jimmy (who is 10 years old and a very happy boy) .... are YOU going to tell Jimmy?

Doesn't Jimmy have a right to know?

You decide that Jimmy has a right to know.... you tell Jimmy.

When Jimmy learns this, he becomes unhappy and gets into trouble and his parents eventually divorce.

Aren't you noble?

Even so, if a married man is seen having lunch with another female...or for that matter, coming out of a hotel...should the observers notify his wife? It is, after all, not PROOF of an affair


no the observes should pull his pants down and test his underwear for semen...

oooops I mean pull the womens underwear down..(assuming she's wearing any...) and test for semen....

Oh sorry I forgot you hate my deceptive guts right now... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />


ARK^^

BTW, someone implied to my H that he should request DNA on our DS. I told him I would agree to it but said do you really doubt that he is yours? He said no. I may have lied to my H by not disclosing my A but I can tell you I never would have let him believe my son was his if he wasn't. My DS was conceived 2 months after my A ended. Even XOM never questioned that paternity of my child.

"I encourage couples to follow two policies that are essential to a good marriage: The Policy of Joint Agreement and the Policy of Radical Honesty. Without them, your marriage really doesn't have much hope for success.

there's a bit of difference in working through this issue with counseling and grownups who are acting as grownups..

AND
two adults in pure chaos...choosing this time to disclose...
amongst every other chaotic issue imaginable....occuring all at once...

I seriously seriously doubt that DR. Harley would recoemmend blurting the truth at any time...and would take in great account in working with the individual couple first....


the original post in question has NO one practicing radical honesty
including the MOM...to whom is the one is recomended to tell
by the doc...


not tom [censored] and harry cause it's true...
big difference

ARK

We have no argument about timing, Pep...see my post above.
Timing is clearly important.

Method is clearly important.

But, Jimmy should eventually know these truths as an adult.



Let's talk through how responsible people would handle this, shall we?

I am not an advocate of disclosing to minors...never said that I was...in fact, stated differently on the other post.

Telling Jimmy's non-bio dad AND the mother immediately is the right thing to do. You are not responsible for what non-bio dad does with that info.

When Jimmy is an adult...if you find yourself in the postion being the RIGHT person at the RIGHT time...then, you should tell Jimmy the truth. It's the right thing to do.

This is beneath you, ark...

it's a joke loworbit...
a joke...
and it's definitely not beneath me...

this is becoming my biggest problems with so many of these post lately...

you give a specific opinion to a specific issue...with hopes that it does good...but not expecting it be the be all or end all...

and suddenly it becomes this global message applicable to everything under the sun...

basically my opinion about the original post...is that this would be a horrible TIME to tell the real dad...cause the boy needs dads right now...to be there for him...not lost in his own pain...right now...

you think now is as good a time to tell as ever..

and that's yours and mine opinion....

and i am not about to start accusing you of going to hospital units and finding cancer patients to tell them you think their spouse is cheating on them...

I have no global applicable opinion about your opinion except in this case we disagree...

but me..

now I suddenly believe in non revealing of affairs...
I have no interest in the damage affairs does to children..
etc
etc
etc

which is just sad...

ARK^^

Thank you, CN...good post

Ok ... I'll buy that ~if you add~ ... "for the RIGHT reason" ... or more importantly NOT for the wrong reason ! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

I agree..

Speak the truth always <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Radical Honesty

How can two walk together unless they be in agreement: <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Policy of Joint Agreement