You know you might want to practice what you preach. I said a lot of women. Look at the stats that is a lot of women.

What does that have to do with semantics. You don't agree with me but this has happened to millions of men I consider that a lot. You don't seem to respect my viewpoint that millions is a lot.

And I don't care how long anyone has posted here it does not make it right to deceive and betray your spouse. These women are screwing OM to get pregnant they are not victims. The only victim is the husband or boyfriend who has to foot the bill.

We don't want to lose ground here, IHE. I think the ladies make a good point that there are victims here besides the H...the children.

It might seem like this point was lost on us...but it wasn't.

Well,how many men like this out there remains to be seen but it sure isn't hopeful for my or other decent women's futures.Maybe I will just stay alone then. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Maybe you can explain how one woman could change these views?

O

I am very sorry if I contributed to opening up your wounds.

You and the VAST majority of women are NOT the problem, but the FEW that are are impacting society tremendously. Just like the deadbeat fathers who abandon their children [and for whom I have the highest contempt you can possibly imagine], these women are not just harming their unsuspecting H but the innocent children from and outside their marriages. What I would like is to see the vast majority of women helping to expose these dishonest women after the birt of every child in this nation. Just imagine the untold tragedies that can be averted if we joined forces.

TMCM

It can only start with you, OG...you are the only you can change...we're old timer's here. We know this.

The trick has always been to live as innocent as lambs, yet be as cunning as foxes.

It starts with being honest with ourselves about this...with adopting a value system that can transcend situational ethics without ignoring the situation.

I think some are thinking that that I'm advocating hard and fast rules for every situation. In a way I am. But it is compassion that finds ways to effect change in accordance with those laws in a loving, effective manner.

I am not perfect, don't pretend to be. What I want to be is self-aware and introspective. I want to have a value system that lets me know when I should just take my lumps and learn and when I should fight.

With all due respect had enough,you don't know me and have misinterpreted what I said.

When I mentioned those of us who have been here long enough,I meant that we have seen threads that are polarizing,difficult to read and emotional.

Second,practice what I preach? Care to elaborate since you seem to want to be at odds with me now.I DO practice what I "preach".Faithfulness,honesty,care,support in marriage and as individuals.Millions of men? Where are your statistics to back that up? Refresh my memory.

How has being here a long time been extrapolated in to being deceiving and betrayal? People who come are usually are seeking help.Or have you missed that point?

You sound bitter and upset with me and I happen to agree,as I have already said, about telling a man he has fathered a child.

O

It's not just you TMCM,not on purpose,but I see a lot of attention being placed on those few women who do deceive and not on those who aren't.If I only focused on the men in society who cheated I would absolutely hold no faith in ever being in love again or sharing my life with a man or marrying again,as you have been fortunate enough to do.

You can be sure though that if I ever knew of a woman that was not being responsible about telling a man he had fathered a child,and I had knowledge of it,I would not be silent.It's isn't fair nor right.I agree,a man has a right to know.He was part of making that child.What my viewpoint is though doesn't seem to stem the tide of cheating women,or men,though.As evidenced by the newcomer on the Preg board I saw you post to.It's truly sickening how it keeps going on. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

O

I agree.Withholding,on purpose,information about a man fathering a child is not right.But,when you add into the mix all the differing situations such that we have seen here,it can cause confusion.Unless you are firmly set in what your values and beliefs are,they can be swayed.As Pep mentioned some pages ago,timing is important in certain cases.Not withholding,but timing.But rare,to me,is the situation so dire that the truth should be withheld for any lengthy period of time.In fact,I can't think of any right now.Being adults,children are exposed to whatever misdeads and painful hurtful acts we do no matter what happens.They can be shielded only so much and then what is it we are really protecting?

In my case,the one I mentioned,it wasn't pertaining to an other child.It was "merely" saving my WH's grandmemere from more pain.I think withholding information about paternity is wrong.When I try to imagine being a man and not being told I had fathered a child,for whatever reason,it makes me very sad.I would want to be part of that childs life.Some men may not but I can only speculate for myself.

Other than being verbal myself about knowing a woman who was withholding information like that and encouraging her to be truthful, I don't know how to go about changing or educating women about the need to be honest about this issue sans going on the road expressing my viewpoints.

O

No one can ask for more, OG. You've done well.

OG,

Both of us have experienced the devastation of infidelity and the destruction of our marriages, so we have a common experience. Despite my ordeal, I never lost my trust in women in general and learned through forgiveness of my XWW to move on with life. I was, and still am, very fortunate to have met a good, loving, beautiful woman who would take a bullet for me. She and I are open books to one another and hide nothing from each other. Her peace of mind is extremely important to me and if she ever felt unsure about my faithfulness to her I told her that I welcomed her spying on me, take a polygraph test, etc. and that I would never take insult for her doing so. She gave me the most loving, longest hug I had ever experienced in my life [outside of my dear daughters of course]. It's like that old 70's song 'you have to go through he** before you get to heaven'. My advice to you OG is to never settle for anything less than a man who adheres to the MB principles. Beleive me when I tell you that it is always better to live by a dream than to live by a lie.

TMCM

Amen.

The question here is to weather to tell an adult man that he may not be the bio-Dad to this boy. This isn’t about what the boy should be told. You shape your argument into what will happen to this boy if the father is told. That isn’t the question. But it is an interesting on worthy of discussion.

Well if it is worthy of discussion that's all I have been saying...

here's my feelings about why not telling dad right NOW...

mom is incapable of nurturing him based on her unstable mental health...

step dad is step dad ..and there's a good chance marriage might break up...step dad will take his son...breaking up ONCE AGAIN fifteen year old boys home...leaving him with unstable mom....and taking half brother away....

major crisis enough for fifteen year old...so major in and of itself that lets hope fifteen year old ends up with dad...

dad finds out he's not dad...while that is NO GARUNTEE that he will pull out support to now not really son..THERE IS A CHANCE....
there is a chance that this news is so mind blowing and altering that not really dad....pulls back any support from mom because he is so hurt and angry...which indirectly affects fifteen year old boy.....AND leaves him only with a mom mentally unstable....

it is hard these days to get extended in patient stays...you gotta be pretty sick for them to keep you long enough to offer DAY passes...the days of solariums for stressed out moms is long gone...the mental health system is over worked under staffed with qualified professionals.....

my prediction is there will be fallout to mom which will affect son...and mom is too ill to care for son....

which does not mean don't ever tell
which does not mean mom is a good good women who is a victim...she's evil...so lets take away the nonevil parent...

the truth can come out...it is my humble opinion not right now...not today...not with so much crisis...

not until this child has a stable adult IN his life.
for HIM

it is my opinion that this news can be life altering and shattering even bigger and deeper than divorce which is also mind altering and life shattering....

this kid stand to lose
step dad
and
not real dad at the same time...
how much loss do we visit upon him at once....

this requires concerned professional guidance...which is absent right now because we can't even get mom to focus on anything.......

I have read 100's of WS stories and have named the few times that I advocated not disclosing based on violence...

two out of the hundreds....

this is the first time I have ever heard of questionable paternity that my opinion is today is not the day to speak the truth...

I realize that others disagree....and I accept their disagreement without accusing them of low moral that want to destroy children in the name of truth....
and I mean that...

The revelation of paternity or of affairs have the potential to harm children. If the motivation is to protect children, then neither should be revealed. That is a consistent argument. It is also wrong.

It is also my opinion based on work on inpatient pediatric adolescent units that some news is harder and more difficult to hear and deal with...

example....
child who never met dad is told
dad is in jail because he robbed a bank

dad is in jail because he murdered a family

both are the truth
both are horrible bad bad news...

but it is my opinion that the news that dad is murdered requires stable adults in the kids life to assist him with processing that news...MORE SO than dads a robber...

I think a child finding out dad is not dad is life altering to the core news....
that shakes their whole known universe different and deeper than divorce.....or affair information....

there is NO support group for this kid
there is no family member to help the kid to guide him...

He may chose to cut off contact with his xw’s love-child. THAT IS HIS CHOICE TO MAKE AND NO ONE ELSE’S.

that's the risk in THIS case I find hard to take...and I would not pull the trigger on this one right now and take my chances with God...as judgement on that....knowing that my only purpose is to protect him RIGHT NOW based on the crisis his family is in.......

hopefully mom will get well and be able to nurture this child

The fact is that you are guessing his reaction and you are guessing that he will behave in a poor fashion. To me this speaks poorly of this man and of men in general.

I don't think it is guessing to say that there will some type of gutteral emotional reaction
I think there will be....
if he's human....
I think he will be furious with mom and want nothing to do with her at first... which will effect communication between him and her about the son....which is an effect.........

To me this speaks poorly of this man and of men in general.
I am NOT making any generalizations about men....
I am saying that humans that are giving life changing mind blowing information....usually react in some way....

if mom was stable
and step dad was there and ready to step up to the plate...I'd say tell everyone....
but in this ONE case....

it's a powder keg...
with the potential of huge fallout all landing on a fifteen year old boys shoulders............

my suggestion is step dad nick...steps up to the plate...and positions himself to raise fifteen year old step son and bio son.....
and let mom do whatever the he$$ she wants...
then tell "maybe not dad"

but nick be the MAN...perhaps the only one in this childs life....and stay by his side till grown....


ARK

Ark,

Nevermind. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

TMCM

I have been reading MB for over a year now. There have been very few times that I have been inspired to reply. This thread has definately invoked that inspiration.

I do see such a seperation of thought here and believe it's due the inability to emphathize with the male gender. I can't begin to descibe what horror and how heinous it would be to hide the facts of who the true father would be. The arguement of timing does have merit, yet the longer the conspiracy of hiding such defining information, the greater the sense of being violated.

Ark, I am sure that everyone here understands your best intentions, but sometimes it's not our right to dictate or surpress the actions of others. Every Father has a right to know. Supressing that knowledge because you feel in may have negative consequence is not for you to judge or manipulate. Right and Wrong? The father deserves the right to know in good conscience. You cannot make people follow the path you want them to take. All you can do is guide them with light (the truth).

Seoulman

I have no problem with whatever path the not now dad path takes...

his choice is his choice...I have no problem with that..
he has every right to CHOOSE pull out (cad)
or stay....

infact I really don't care what now not dad does...as long as ONE FRICKING adult in this crazy mix plans to stay and help no matter the fall out...

but this tell no matter what happens makes me ill........


I have a problem with adding more chaos to an unstable environment this minute...unless SOMEONE stops the chaos...
which no one has even suggested..
just tell tell tell tell tell tell tell tell

and if I was holder of this truth I would NOT tell until I did EVERYTHING in my POWER to ensure this childs safety...

which nick has the POWER to try to do......

nick telling with plans on leaving said kid and mom.... is evil as is the with-holding of information as well.......

pulling the trigger for the sake of the truth without doing everything to assist the child with a soft place to land is cruel and unfair...just as hiding possible paternity is....

I see generalizations about women and their need to prove paternity even if they've done a THING to question paternity...

ARK

never mind

Just to be weird and show off for Mel ... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

You know... DNA can be wrong!

There are people who are what is known as a chimera

People with two types of DNA are called chimeras after a mythical creature with a lion's head, a goat's body, and a serpent's tail (individuals are also called mosaics). These people have two different sets of DNA in different parts of the body.

How does someone become a chimera? There are a number of ways this can happen:

First, it is possible to become a chimera if developing fraternal twin embryos fuse together to become one embryo. (Think of this is as the reverse of identical twins where a single embryo splits into two.) This happens very early on when the embryos are just unspecialized cells, so a healthy baby can still be made. Fraternal twins do not have the same DNA, so a mixture of two embryos will give a chimera.

Second, chimeras can arise when developing fraternal twins share a blood supply. This happens when the twins (who have different DNA) share a placenta and cells from their blood mix. The twins will be chimeras only in terms of their blood since other cells in the body are not affected by the blood supply.

Third, sometimes chimeras can happen through an error in the way cells divide in the developing embryo. (These people are technically called mosaics but the concept is similar.) Cells split into two to make more of themselves – something embryos need to do a lot of to grow into a baby. For this, cells need to double their DNA and divide it between the two new halves. Sometimes this goes wrong and some new cells end up with different DNA. If this happens early on, the tissues that come from these cells end up with a different genotype.

How common are chimeras? We don’t really know. We generally only find out about chimeras when their DNA is analyzed. It sure makes crime solving difficult, but it can also complicate finding organ donors.

This condition was featured in an episode of CSI.

A woman, Lydia Fairchild, almost lost custody of her children because her DNA tests "proved" that the children she gave birth to were not genetically hers ... it is a fascinating story ... discovery channel (I think) did a great program about her.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Here's her story

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lydia_Fairchild

or google "I am my own twin"

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that's what my four year old thinks.....

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

I've seen some of those who's the daddy shows with my wife
and I think it's cruel for women to make a man think he's
the father when he isn't but my kids are 23, 21, and 18,
since she didn't say anything then, she best just keep her mouth shut now. I would not want to know and I wouldn't want them to know either.

Take care
Scott