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***If it would have no bearing and make no difference, then why the need to know?***
Because it is taking away the most fundamental right of any human being: The right to know who they really are.
Animals do not care about such things, but human beings do. It is one of the very things that makes us human.
It is a lie and a betrayal of the most enormous magnitude to let someone *think* they know who their blood parents are, or to let someone *think* they know who their blood children are, when the truth is they are being fooled and BETRAYED AGAIN by everyone who knows but deliberately protects this lie.
You say it does not and should not matter what the blood ties really are -- but my point is, YOU do NOT have the right to decide this for someone else.
Maybe it's not important to YOU, and that's fine, but you do NOT have the right to decide whether it matters to someone else.
The INDIVIDUAL has the right to decide whether it matters to THEM.
NO ONE ELSE has any right whatsoever to say, "Well, *I* don't think the parent-child relationship should depend on blood ties, so *I* will make the decision that THEY will not be told."
Excuse me???
Who gave anyone else the right to make such a decision about what someone else will and will not know about the most personal aspect of their life?
That's my point. People have decided they are entitled to make decisions *for others* about what they shall and shall not know about their own lives. NO ONE has the right to do such a thing, not even when they *think* it's done out of "kindness" or "protection".
The ones directly affected -- the father/dad and the child -- are the ONLY ones entitled to say whether having the truth matters to them or not. NO ONE ELSE has the right to make such a profound decision for them.
If the truth does not matter, then life will go on as before.
If it DOES matter, then yes, changes will be made -- maybe small, maybe large -- and that will all have to be dealt with. Nobody said life was going to be easy.
But NO ONE ELSE has the right to control and manipulate a situation that rests at the very heart of someone else's life.
NO ONE ELSE gets to decide whether the truth should matter -- only the people who are directly affected by that truth get to say whether it matters or not, and they cannot do that while other people are deciding what they will and will not know about the most personal aspect of their own lives.
That's why it matters.
Mulan
Me, BW
WH cheated in corporate workplace for many years. He moved out and filed in summer 2008.
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What if they don't want to know?
For instance my parents are dead, and I would not want to know now. I would not have wanted to know when they were alive either. To know that my mother was a liar and a cheat now would serve only to hurt me. And to know when she was alive would have served only to hurt her, because being the teen I was that would have given me much fuel for the angry fire I had going on back then.
Maybe some secrets are best taken to the grave, and maybe not for everyone, but maybe for some us.
And who has all the answers...past, present and future to know when it is best to tell, and when it is not. If you say it is always best to tell the truth in each and every single sitch, then I case you have your answer, but that truth should have been brought out before the baby was born.
Which brings us back to mandatory DNA testing. Mandatory DNA testing would be a good thing, because it would illiminate all this...and eliminate a husband (god forbid he have to) asking for DNA testing.
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***Which brings us back to mandatory DNA testing. Mandatory DNA testing would be a good thing, because it would illiminate all this...and eliminate a husband (god forbid he have to) asking for DNA testing.***
I totally agree!
Mulan
Me, BW
WH cheated in corporate workplace for many years. He moved out and filed in summer 2008.
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What if they don't want to know? Even in those cases, there is no guarantee that the truth would not come out, even years after the death of both parents. What then? On page 21 of Dr Willard Harley's book 'Love Busters', he has this to say about 'Historical Honesty': While revealing your past is a good thing to do, it's not always painless. Some spouses have difficulty adjusting to revelations that have been kept secret for years - the saints they thought they married turn out to be not so saintly. To control the emotional damage, you may want to make your revelations in the presence of a professional counselor. Some spouses with emotional weaknesses may need some personal counseling to help them adjust to the reality of the spouse's past.
In many cases the spouse reacts more negatively to the long-term deception than to the conceled event. The thoughtless act might be easily accepted and forgiven, but the cover-up is often harder to accept.
You may be daunted by the idea of revealing your past and that's understandable. But let me assure you that I've never seen a marriage destroyed by the truth. When truth is revealed, there are often negative reactions and some shaky times, but ultimately the truth makes marriages stronger. On the other hand, dishonesty destroys intimacy, romantic love, and marriages. If you've read the story of UsedLongAgo you will see that Dr Harley's words are vindicated. Furthermore, if there is any doubt about the wisdom of mandatory DNA testing after birth, UsedLongAgo story should put all doubts to rest. TMCM
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Well TMCM, I did say that when I try to imagine being on the other side of the coin here,it is sad to think about not having the information(so that's at least one <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />).Although I have never had cancer,it does not prevent me from being compassionate and sympathetic with those that do endure this disease,as an example(being an RN I have done this a lot).You may not know 100% what it is like but we do have the capacity for sharing our experiences and for understanding and care. Just reviewing the last posts since I was here I can see the debate rages on.I agree with Mulan too.As I said before,there isn't an idealistic time to tell "bad news" but something of this magnitude,keeping information from a man that he fathered a child, is not just. The very idea of someone else making decisions for me without my knowledge is appalling.I would have to be brain dead and on life support,otherwise I make the decisions concerning my life and that includes any children I am responsible for. One more thing,without going back thru the pages right now,I think someone mentioned not telling a family member that they had cancer? Ovarian? or something to that affect.Not only was that wrong IMO but it also robbed that person of the growth experience that may have been needed via that diagnosis and that may have been in God's plan for that person to have.But for this I would have to go back a read again to be sure that was the scenario. O
BW(me)40
DDay 10/11/03
Divorcing
'The Reformer'- enneagram type 1
~Let Higher Minds Prevail~
---------------
~Life isn't complicated,we make it that way~
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<grumble> I lost my post... trying again.
I just wanted to say that I have found this discussion useful and thought-provoking, and that it leads me to steel my resolve to be as truthful and transparent as possible - and to transmit important information to it's rightful owners.
The significance of biological parentage is a side-issue which only matters if one first assumes that the holder of the uncomfortable truth has the right to use it as he/she wishes - or even the responsibility to figure out what effect it might have.
But... taking up that question, I can speculate that women find it safe to say it doesn't matter, because, either they have willingly chosen to adopt OR they know that they are the parent (and they probably know who the father is too) and that they will not lose their child, nor their opportunity to transmit their genes. A man is in a much weaker position.
Would you ladies be more likely to think DNA testing was desirable if hospitals routinely mixed up 15% of children? What if it were impossible to see the child immediately after birth and no way to even have a chance of saying "this is the wrong baby", because it would have already been mixed up before you saw it? Would you feel comfortable giving birth and then just having the hospital give you a randomly chosen infant born the same day? "Oh, you wanted a boy? No problem, we have three today. And really, it helps us out because two other ladies wanted a girl." What about a birth pool system, where all babies are taken at birth, testing and then matched with parents deemed most compatible by the "experts"? And why should the experts even tell anybody that they are doing this? After all, it's for the best interest of the child, and might only do harm if anybody found out.
I don't believe that biological parentage determines "who you are" in any meaningful way. You are who you are. (Just like Popeye, LOL). But, I do think biological parentage matters to most people (to varying degrees), and as TMCM and others have said, only the individuals in question have the right to decide how much it matters to them.
Oh, and on a personal note, I have not done such testing - first because my relationship with my daughter is well beyond the point where it would make any difference, and secondly because the conditions surrounding her conception leave me with no reasonable doubts. If I discovered that I was not the bio-dad, it would not affect my relationship with her. It would however, destroy any possibility of reconciliation with her mother.
-AD
A guy, 50. Divorced in 2005.
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Would you ladies be more likely to think DNA testing was desirable if hospitals routinely mixed up 15% of children? What if it were impossible to see the child immediately after birth and no way to even have a chance of saying "this is the wrong baby", because it would have already been mixed up before you saw it? Would you feel comfortable giving birth and then just having the hospital give you a randomly chosen infant born the same day? "Oh, you wanted a boy? No problem, we have three today. And really, it helps us out because two other ladies wanted a girl." What about a birth pool system, where all babies are taken at birth, testing and then matched with parents deemed most compatible by the "experts"? And why should the experts even tell anybody that they are doing this? After all, it's for the best interest of the child, and might only do harm if anybody found out. This is the same analogy that I used in one of my earlier posts to try to help the ladies gain insight into the male perspective. Unfortunately it was dismissed via an answer I felt was very flippant and disingenous considering the gravity of the situation. The likely scenario would be that it wouldn't change a thing as far as the love they would have for these children who were not theirs biologically but at the same time there would definitely be a swell of righteous outrage against the hospitals and the goverment for committing and allowing these monstrous acts. To the ladies that beleived that mandatory DNA testing was an affront to their fidelity, please realize that by you submitting your child to a DNA test, you are contributing to the reduction and prevention of future tragedies such as UsedLongAgo's. And to the ladies that do 'get it' [beleiver, Mulan and Octobergirl] a big thank you for you empathic hearts and minds. TMCM
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I second the thanks for the respectful discussion of a very sensitive issue.
-AD
A guy, 50. Divorced in 2005.
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What if they don't want to know? How will you ever know this? There are several instances in these forums where BS said they would've preferred never knowing. Does that mean that it would be wrong to tell that BS about their WS's affair? I like some things that have been said... "You cannot simultaneously do the right thing and control the outcome." If we reserve the right to be "selectively" honest, then we devalue the truth. You can no longer take the position that honesty and openness are important to you, because you demonstate lack of commitment to them yourself. What would you say tot he WS who tells you that revealing a long past affair would do nothing but hurt people, therefore they choose not to? Do you see the parallel? There is no difference. I believe in choosing to be truthful, honest, and open, we have to give up the desire to manipulate the outcomes. What will be will be. If we believe in the ethic...then the outcome will follow. Lemonman gave an interesting example above...he told a patient about their illness against the families wishes. The family never forgave him. Does that mean that what he did was wrong? NO! He did the right thing. The family members choose to react poorly...that is not his responsibility. Maybe some secrets are best taken to the grave, and maybe not for everyone, but maybe for some us. Perhaps. You are taking the position that you would rather live a life of bliss based on lies instead of an authentic life in the light of truth. I cannot imagine why anyone would CHOOSE to live like this. I can't imagine HOW one would live like this in practice. How can you choose what you don't want to know without knowing it? Low
Last edited by LowOrbit; 12/12/05 08:11 AM.
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I am going to re-iterate my case one last time..
never did I say nor do I believe that the man should not be told...
my only position on THIS case is to make sure that proper support groups are in place for the fallout....
both for the man and child...
though my strongest protection lies with the boy not the dad..which does not mean I don't CARE about the dad...but he has an adult choices and resources available to him denied a child....
AND
in this THIS CASE the man who wants to speak the news does hold enough power to put in to place proper safety measures for the boy....and there for should do so before speaking the truth...
I'm not changing my position on THIS case
I'm not shirking or denying the right of the man to know...
I'm not anti-truth and all those other things blown way out of proportion.....
again I go back to if a woman or mans confession or revealing of an affair would cause great physical harm to the person...I would advocate NOT telling till each is in a safe enough position to do so...
and I am not changing that opinon...nor would I or do I suggest such a person continue to have ANY contact with aperson who is a physical threat...so not telling does not mean IGNORE or DENY it means safety first......
It is my opinion that great damage can rest on the boys shoulders if the father is told without steps taken to protect him and professionally and emotionally support him....
so there it is my fall from grace..so be it...
and everyone that quotes dr harley can not deny they are getting quotes from a PROFESSIONAL whom I assume would also recomend and encourage proper support measures be in place...
even the medical issues are not the same...the information of a horrible diagnosis comes with a slew of professional options and information...
no one gets diagnosed with cancer with NO SUPPORT...
it is not the same...............
I don't see the applications as equal...
the child in this story is on such unsupported ground that it is my opinion that finding support is MORE important than the truth for the sake of truth..........AT THIS MOMENT
which doesnt mean it should never be spoken...just that great onus lies with the speaker.....
just a I have no doubt that lemonsmans revealing of tragic diagnosis comes with TONS of resources to assist and he would never walk in a room annouce the words terminal and turn heal and run....
so should this life altering shattering news.........come with assistance and back up...for all that are receiving it...
ARK
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safety first .... then reveal the truth <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />
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I now get the impression that despite possible misunderstandings from the beginning of this thread, that MOST of us are actually on the same page about this issue. But whether we agreed or not, there is something that cannot be denied and that is the truth often comes out when we least expect it. Pain will be unavoidable but the amount of misery is not. safety first .... then reveal the truth <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> Very succinct, Pep. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> TMCM
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safety first .... then reveal the truth nevermind...
Last edited by LowOrbit; 12/12/05 03:17 PM.
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when 2 tell the truth?
Thursday evening at 15 minutes past 7, PST.
There, you have your answer.
-ol' 2long
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Hi, Folks.
I think that the real problem resides in the fact that as humans, we don't really understand the nature of truth itself.
God meters out truth to those of us that believe in him, some truths only to be revealed upon our passing. The only absolute truth we know as humans, is that we will physically die one day, and we don't even know the details of that event.
For those of you who are familiar with the Corrie Ten Boom story, was it okay that she lied to the Nazis that there were jews hidden in her house? Corrie chose to lie, her sister told the truth. In both cases, the jews went undiscovered.
So, who was right, Corrie or her sister?
For me, I would definitely want to know if I was not the father of my child. As a child, I would want to know who my parents were.
If I had been, Corrie, I would have lied about the Jews too.
I love truth, but I am a liar. What's new about that?
All the best,
Gimble
-An affair is the embodiment of entitlement, fueled by resentment and lack of respect.
-An infidel will remain unreachable so long as their sense of entitlement exceeds their ability to reason.
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***For those of you who are familiar with the Corrie Ten Boom story, was it okay that she lied to the Nazis that there were jews hidden in her house? Corrie chose to lie, her sister told the truth. In both cases, the jews went undiscovered.***
***So, who was right, Corrie or her sister?***
The Nazis had no right to know where peaceful private citizens were or were not living.
People do have every right to know who their blood parents and blood children are.
Mulan
Me, BW
WH cheated in corporate workplace for many years. He moved out and filed in summer 2008.
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The Nazis were murderers NOT victims.
TMCM
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LO,
"Imagine a man having the oppotunity to decide at that if he was going to raise this wonderful child...instead of being forced to be a fraudulent parent."
"The key here is CHOICE."
"The situation is a fact. Adults deserve to live in truth and dignity. There is nothing noble in allowing someone to believe something about themselves that is not true. It is wrong to deny someone the ability to CHOOSE for theirself."
What I see in your posts, LO, are a lot of rights, what people deserve, forced to be something they didn't choose...all of these go to fear, I think.
I hear that raising a child you believe is yours is a cost...like there isn't a mutual payoff. That DNA matters when one human is choosing to take responsibility for another human.
I am not advocating women are free to lie and deceive...I understand the desire for truth, for reality, when it is hidden from me...I also know the great desire to see what is, before I destroy it.
These words...deserving, being forced, human rights as determined by humans...all smack greatly of entitlement, trying to control what is not controllable; and fear.
Then you say the key is choice. Choice to withhold, manipulate, reveal, protect, timing, and the imperative of believing an absolute truth.
I question that truth. I challenge that if the adult could see life differently, then that truth wouldn't be absolute.
I agree with respecting others to handle the truth of their lives. Children are innocent of choice. They are being made the proof of their mother's infidelity or fidelity. They have no choice in that. Their existence isn't about that.
All the hypothesizing on this thread didn't have my truth in there...I am any one's child, without DNA, or origin...I exist. I am. I have no biological father or mother, nor do orphans...and I challenge you that I know I have Adam and Eve's blood...my face is common among the masses...often mistaken for good friends I have never known. I have no heritage and I exist. I am not owed to be raised by anyone...chosen and choosing...because I exist.
I have two sons with fathers who never paid for them, and I did not believe they had to--they didn't choose to own their actions. I received all the benefit of their existence...their biodads didn't. My children knew the truth from a young age...know they were chosen by one and rejected by another. They know they were not the cause nor the result of anything but being born, existing...and they do.
Fear makes a lot of laws. Fear gives way to beliefs in rights and what we deserve...things we cannot control...opportunity, protection from pain, honesty, intimacy...anything outside our own choices.
When we judge and label...I am a cuckhold because my wife had an affair, then that is our choice of belief; I believe the feeding, sheltering and clothing parts of raising children are 10 cents on the wholesale dollar for the payoff on being there to watch a human being grow. More than Bill Gates could ever afford. They exist, LO...they are gifts, biologically given or not. They exist.
When their parentage matters to them, when they take the road of rights and deserving and defining themselves by actions others' took, choices others made...they will ask for and choose to be tested for the truth.
My sons are old enough to choose this...and don't. They know their power of choice in belief...they choose to believe me, in who I named, and accept it as their truth. Maybe tomorrow they won't. They choose their father, their mother, as I have done...and done more than once. We create our families by choice...and I don't understand differently.
I don't get lineage, LO, I get existence.
Ark's post:
"please note:
truth and opinion
are NOT one in the same
and
timing is very very important
as is motive and method"
I was asking for Dtsnm to look at his motive, so that when he reached for what he thought he wanted, he wouldn't live with consequences, his children wouldn't live with consequences, which wasn't what he wanted in the first place.
I wanted to know if by choosing to establish fact, he wanted power, knowledge, truth, because he felt crazy, distrusting, unsure, angry, resentful. Truth wouldn't cure those things, LO. It can't. Proof doesn't. What you choose to believe does.
I see you believe you can judge yourself into universal truth. I don't believe in it...I choose to believe in gravity, not in its inherent existence for everyone...I choose to believe that someone can not believe it and walk on water...because we're human, each with our choices and truth.
LA
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