Cherished,
Have you lost any weight yet. Your exercise program sounds great. It sounds like you are not as depressed either, probably as a result of exercising more. Are you going to a gym or exercising on your own? I have had to watch my weight since I was a kid. Both of my sisters are in the process of loosing weight right now. I had been smaller than them for years and they are now smaller than me. That's depressing but I can only worry about so much at one time. I did find a book with diet cheesecake and brownies that looks good though. I haven't tried them yet. They are made with granulated fructose, whey protein powder and fat free cream cheese. Can that stuff be put together and actually taste good? I'll have to try it to see.

rb123,
I have actually gained weight -- to 193. Tom said he'd attend the MBW this summer if I weigh under 160. The weight gain is because I let go of any restraint on eating.

The good news is that I feel so much better exercising and I can see some changes in my eating habits. We went out to breakfast on Saturday, and I didn't want a bagel. I'm also drinking lots more water. And my clothes fit better.

My sister in law has been on the Atkins Diet and maintained a 50 pound weight loss. She had cheesecake. I tried one bite, and no more. Cheesecake is probably my favorite food but not low carb cheesecake! Exercising really changes how I feel.

As for Tom, I've concluded that all I can do at this point is set a criteria of 15 hours per week. Harley told me that he thinks Tom has absolutely no idea how to show care for me. All I can do at this point is let him know how his current behavior affects me and be willing to file for divorce if he isn't willing to spend 15 hours per week with me and exercise!

Whatever comes of our marriage, I think this approach is for the best. If our marriage does not improve with 15 hours and the MBW, I can turn the page on this chapter of my life, take the blame that I couldn't get over his affair, and go on to care for four children who didn't get a childhood.

Cherished

I think the weight gain is because you are gaining muscle tone and that weighs more than fat. Muscle also burns callories more efficiently though so you should be seeing some improvement soon I hope. You said your clothes are fitting better already.

Cherished,

Long-time lurker here, just wanting to applaud your exercise efforts, and echo the statement that if you are exercising now, your muscles are going to be getting stronger and you might not see an immediate weight loss. You *will* however, lose inches rather quickly. You can lose several inches before you ever lose a pound, so I would highly recommend that you get out a tape measure and write down all your measurements (including upper arms, thighs, etc.) about once a week. Drinking water and varying your exercise routine will keep you motivated as you watch the inches fall off! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Good luck to you! I'm sure you're feeling better already!

Morigaine

Great idea! My measurements are 43-37-46 with upper arms at 15 and thighs at 27 1/2. When I was single, my measurements were 36-24-36. I still have an hourglass figure! I just feel so good -- I've settled on a course. Whether Tom comes around to trying to meet my needs or not, I know I am done -- completely done -- with trying to pressure him into doing anything.

Cherished

Well, here's what Harley wrote to me yesterday morning:

"You have given your husband many more chances to save his marriage than most women would or could. It's living proof that it takes two to save a marriage. If you succeed, you deserve the greatest respect from those who have been following your saga. If you fail, no one will blame you. My take on the situation is that your husband has absolutely no understanding of what it means to care for his wife. He only cares about himself. Until the light shines, and in tears he offers you a heartfelt apology for all of the suffering he has caused you, and promises to do everything possible to try to make it up to you during the remaining years you have together, I have little to hope for. Until then, as his account in your Love Bank goes further into the red, and as your feelings toward him become increasingly negative, you will find separation to be the only way to keep yourself open to the option of staying married to him."

I believe he is right -- my husband simply doesn't understand the importance of meeting my needs. By forcing him to spend time with me, I am forcing him to live his life with me. LM, if you're lurking, Harley's words are proof that Harley believes it takes two to make a marriage. You are following MB principles. In fact, it's getting to the point that I'm not!

What I am doing is looking at setting up our relationship so that we can meet intimate emotional needs. Time alone together is forced today. Once we attend the MBW, maybe Tom will want to try to have us meet each other's intimate emotional needs. I am certainly not going back to a marriage in which I am the maid and the nanny while he is off golfing, running, and fooling around when opportunity knocks (as if that's ever a problem in this day and age!)

In the meantime, I will exercise, take care of the kids, take care of the house, and spend time with Tom. I am making an act of the will to last until the summer MBW, but I certainly won't last past that if all Tom does is punch a time clock, spending time with me only as a way to stay in the marriage.

It's a plan. It's a course. It's not just trying to convince him or trying to coerce him. It's deciding myself what I will do and what I will not tolerate.

This forum has really helped me. I have been able to confide in others about the cheating and the abuse and get perspectives that have helped me to set this course of action.

Cherished

***I am certainly not going back to a marriage in which I am the maid and the nanny while he is off golfing, running, and fooling around when opportunity knocks (as if that's ever a problem in this day and age!)***

It seems to me that an awful lot of WS, both male and female, start treating their spouses like parents instead of like spouses. From what you describe, Tom treats you just like a mommy instead of a wife and that sort of relationship seems to be exactly what he wants.

My WH tried that, too. If I dared to say that I should be the one sitting beside him at his company parties instead of one of the office bimboes, he was just as horrified as my son would have been if I'd suggested to DS17 that he should take me to the prom instead of one of the girls from school.

Beware, beware, beware of the spouse who starts relating to you like you're their mommy or their daddy instead of their life partner.

Mulan

Mulan,
That's exactly why the 180 would never, ever have worked for me. It's true that there is no attempt to control the spouse, but what if the spouse expects a marriage of emotional divorce? What then?

In actual fact, the neglect that preceeded the affair was worse for me. I was so unhappy and yet I couldn't put a finger on it. Here is one particular example. Father's Day, 2001. Children ages 7, 5, 2, and 4 months. Tom went golfing, saying it was the best Father's Day gift he could receive. I took the kids to the zoo where volunteers were handing out carnations to fathers. There I was with four children and no father. Heck, even the divorced Dads had their kids on that day -- but not Tom; he had his golfing buddies. While at the zoo, watching all this happy family time, I sat on a bench, nursed the baby, and watched our other three children play at a playground. I cried. The kids had a good time on that day. Tom had a good time on that day. I cried. I hid my tears because this was Tom's day and everyone else was happy, so what was wrong with me?

But what was wrong? Wasn't I showing my love for Tom by supporting him as he went golfing? Yes, I was showing my willingness to suffer for his benefit, but I was also enabling incredible selfishness and tolerating a man's choice to ingore his own children.

At least with the affair, I had something to grab onto and say: This is wrong! So, what was Tom's response? It was one mistake. It's in the past. You won't forgive me. God asks you to forgive me.

Bunk! The affair was simply the logical conclusion of all those years when I was showing my love in a misguided and personally painful way.

Cherished

193.6 this morning, but I just got back from using the exercise bike for a half hour, and I am recalling how I used to feel with regard to eating. I didn't want to stuff myself! I felt good eating lightly.

Tom said he may be off the San Francisco project. I'm just going to hold on until the MBW, not expecting him to meet my needs at all. He grew up with a father who showed contempt and disregard for his wife. I wish I had understood more before we married, but at least I can have the courage to move on if he isn't willing to spend time with me.

Cherished

That is so sad Cherished, it sounds like learned unloving behavior. Last night my H mentioned that he was like his father, in that it was his responsibility to work and pay the bills, no emotional needs to the family etc...WoW!!!!
His mother was depressed...I wonder why!! His father was an angry Italian (no offense to Italians) alcoholic that died of cirosis.

I don't like when people define who they are by who thier parents were. We are new creations when we come to Christ. We are supposed to have the greatest gift and that is LOVE. I can expect the world that does not know God to be unloving, but we that know God are supposed to walk in Agape (Gods love).

I'm tired of feeling alone in this marriage. I know I'm not alone because I have God. But I feel alone with my H too.

Blessings,
Lady

Cherished,

I wonder if your H would read the same book my H is reading.
It's called "Guard Your Heart," by Dr. Gary Rosberg. It's written for the male, but my H asked me to read a few chapter with him today.

Written by a man who neglected his family for the sake of money, control, power, and position. He now counsels men in the things that matter the most.

His wife felt like a single parent, he was never there. She constantly tried to tell him her feelings of loneliness and neglect, but he just didn't get it until....

The one part that woke Gary up and that was through a picture his daughter drew (this reminded me of your childrens pictures).

I'm going to post here on chapter one called "Out Of The Fog."

I was sitting in my favorite chair, studying for the final stages of my doctoral degree, when Sarah announced herself in my presence with a question "Daddy, do you want to see my family picture?"

"Sarah, daddy's busy. Come back in a little while Honey."
Good move, right? I was busy. A week's worth of work to squeeze into a weekend. You've been there.

Ten minutes later she swept back into the living room, "Daddy, let me show you my picture."
The heat went up my collar. "Sarah, I said come back later. This is important."

Three minutes later she stormed into the living room, got three inches from my nose, and barked with all the power a five-year-old could muster: "Do you want to see it or don't you?" The assertive Christian woman in training.
"NO," I told her "I DON'T."

With that she zoomed out of the room and left me alone. And somehow, being alone at that moment wasn't as satisfying as I thought it would be. I felt like a jerk. I went to the front door.

"Sarah," I called, "could you come back inside a minute, please? Daddy would like to see your picture."

She obliged with no recriminations, and popped up on my lap.
It was a great picture. She'd even given it a title. Across the top, in her best printing, she had inscribed:
"OUR FAMILY BEST."

"Tell me about it," I said.
"Here is Mommy [a stick figure with long yellow curly hair], here isme standing by Mommy [with a smiley face], here is our dog Katie, and here is Missy [her little sister was a stick figure lying in the street in front of the house about three times bigger than anyone else]. It was pretty good insight into how she saw our family.

"I love your pucture, Honey," I told her. "I'll hang it on the dining room wall, and each night when I come home from work and from class [which ws usually around 10 pm], I'm going to look at it."

She took me at my word, beamed ear to ear, and went outside to play. I went back to my books. But for some reason I kept reading the same paragraph over and over.

Something was making me uneasy.
Something about Sarah's picture.
Something was missing.

I went to the front door. "Sarah," I called, "could you come back inside a minute, please? I want to look at your picture again, Honey."

Sarah crawled back into my lap. I can close my eyes right now and see the way she looked. Cheeks rosy from playing outside. Pigtails. Strawberry Shortcake tennis shoes. A Cabbage Patch doll named Nellied tucked limply under her arm.

2nd part next post....

I asked my little girl a question, but I wasn't sure I wanted to hear the answer.

"Honey...there's Mommy, and Sarah, and Missy. Katie the dog is in the picture, and the sun, and the house, and squirrels, and birdies. But Sarah...where is your Daddy?"

"You're at the library," she said.

With that simple statement my little princess stopped time for me. Lifting her gently off my lap, I sent her back to play in the spring sunshine. I slumped back into my chair with a swirling head and blood pumping furiously through my heart. Even as I type these words into the computer, I can feel those sensations all over again. It was a frightening moment. The fog lifted from my preoccupied brain for a moment--and suddenly I could see. But what I saw scared me to death. It was like being in a ship and coming out of the fog in time to see a huge, sharp rock knifing through the surf just off the port below.

She nailed me. Right between the eyes. Bullseye. For whatever reason, I couldn't hear those words from Barbara, though she'd probably been trying to get through to me for months on end. All of the cautions to keep the "balanced lifestyle" from sermons, books, and friends never filtered through my distracted head. But Sarah's simple pronouncement--"You're at the library"--got my attention big time.

I hung the drawing on the dining room wall, just as I promised my girl. And through those long, intense weeks preceeding the oral defense of my dissertation, I stared at that revealing protrait. It happened every night in the silence of my sleeping home, as I consumed my late-night, warmed-over dinners. I didn't have the guts to bring the issue up to Barbara. And she had the incredible insight to let it rest until I had the courage to deal with it.

I finally finished my degree program. I was "Dr. Rosberg" now, and I guess it should have been a big deal for me. But frankly, there wasn't much joy. It felt a little hollow. One night after graduation, Barbara and I were lying in bed together and I foud myself working up the nerve to ask her a question. Actually there were three questions, progressively harder.

It was late, it was dark, and as I murmured my first question, I was praying Barb had already fallen asleep.

"Barb, are you sleeping?"
"No."
Rats, I thought to myself. Now I'm committed.
Question number two.
"Barbara, you've abviously seen Sarah's picture taped on the dining room wall. Why haven't you said anything?"
"Because I know how much it has wounded you, Gary."

Words from a wise woman, wise beyond her twenty-something years. At that point, I asked the tough question I mentioned a few pages back...the toughest question I've ever asked anyone in my entire life.

"Barb?"
"Yes, Gary?"
"Barb...I want to come home. Can I do it?"

Twenty seconds of silence followed. It seemed like I held my breath for an hour.

"Gary," Barb said carefully, "the girls and I love you very much. We want you home. But you haven't been here.
I've felt like a single parent for years."

The words look cold in print, but she said them with restraint and tenderness. It was just plain, unvarnished truth. My little firl had drawn the picture, and now her mom was speaking the words. I lay there in the dark, pretending to sleep. But I couldn't. Events reaced through my mind. I remembered when Missy was two and wouldn't sit onmy lap for more than a few seconds. Why? Because she "didn't know her daddy." I recalled missed dineers with friends, evenings Barbara waited for me tocome home but I had to study just a little longer, vacations canceled so I could finish a class. My life had been out of control, my family was on automatic pilot, and I had a long road ahead of me if I wanted to win them back.

But I had to win them back. Now that the fog had lifted, it suddenly became the most important thing in my life.

I tell this story for one reason. As ou and I journey together through this book and learn to guard our hearts, I want you to know that I've been there. I've wrestled with the pain. I've lain in bed at night, my face wet with mingled sweat and tears. I've sat at the kitchen table withmy little family and wondered how I was ever going to penetrate those hearts enough for them to trust me again. I know what it is to blow it in my leadership role--the role prescribed for me in Ephesians 5. I know what it is to sail around in a insensible fog, leaving my wife and daughters to fend for themselves out in the open sea without compass or captain.

I knew I needed to get back into that leader's post, but I couldn't demand it or announce it.

I had to serve my way back.

Over the coming months and years, it meant I had to sacrifice much of what I wanted to do for Gary in order to develop the trust from the three precious ladies in my life.
Barbara, Sarah, and Missy. You'll learn more about how I did that throughout this book.

Thank God, He allowed me to "come home" Thank God, He allowed me to see the need.

Blessings,
Lady

***He also mentions the book His Needs Her Needs by Willard Harley in this book, under the "Sexual Temptation" chapter. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Thank you, Lady, for that story. I think part of what has happened is that Tom has come to realize that he doesn't like being away from his children. He came home one time from a week of travel, the kids didn't even look up from watching TV, and he asked our son, "Did you miss me?" Answer: "No." He got upset with me once and left. Our daughter called him and asked him to stay away for the night.

Over the last several months, I have come to realize that I cannot convince Tom of anything. I cannot convince him of the importance of meeting my needs or spending time with me and the children. I can just let him know that I choose not to live with a man whose priorities are 1. golf 2. running 3. football.

I have to think back to this, but it was early July of 2003 when my individual counselor said to me that the key question is this: "Does he want to seek happiness in and through his marriage, or does he want to stay married and seek happiness outside his marriage?" I asked him this question, and he said, "Why can't we do both?"

Well, it's like the Continental Divide. You think you can do both, but you can't. You need to choose.

The ultimatum has forced a choice. He chooses, for the moment, to book time with me so that he can stay married.

I have tried many tactics to get to a marriage of intimacy, and none have worked. None. This is the latest attempt, but it is also the last attempt. My course is set. I had one last question for Dr. Harley, about how you can show admiration and appreciation without having it be viewed negatively because it is evaluative by its very nature. Who am I to give an opinion on his choices?

Other than that, I think I just need to give this time and see what develops. I'll come back to the forum every first Monday of the month to let those who are interested know how it is going, but other than that I think I am set. We are booking time today, and that is pretty much it, but there is also his commitment to attend the MBW in the summer. If we don't attend, I'm filing for divorce. Even with his booking time with me, it's not enough. He needs realize that my feelings are important, that my thoughts are important, that I matter -- not because I am in any way special compared with any other woman out there but because he made the choice to marry me. I am his wife. He promised to cherish me. I will accept nothing less than to feel cherished. I will not stay in a marriage in which other activities or our children or his family or some immoral co-worker is more important than me. I'm his highest priority, or he's no longer living with me.

There are many who think I am being unwise at best, but I have appreciated the different perspectives. It was not by accident that I married this person and something was seriously wrong with me to have stayed with him past 6 PM on our wedding day. How sad. He made it clear from the very first day that, now that we were married, he could do what he pleased.

Those days are gone. If he cannot enjoy being with me or the kids, he can go live his life elsewhere. If we are not worth the effort, fine. He has financial obligations regardless of whether we live together. The religious convictions that kept me in a miserable marriage have changed. I promised to love, honor, and cherish him while we both shall live, and I will. However, we will only live together if the care is mutual.

Cherished

That is so sad Cherished. Will he ever understand? If that can't wake him up I don't know what can.


I don't blame you Cherished. You will always be able to say you did your best to rebuild your marriage. And I do hope he will attend the MBW, and that it will be a eye opener, and a fog lifter for him.

Blessings,
Lady

Cherished,

I am praying the same for your marriage and family as I am mine.

That all the walls that divide will fall. That all oppression will be lifted off and done away forever. That Love will rule and rein in our hearts and home. In Jesus name amen.

Blessings In the name of Jesus,
Lady

Cherished,
I read your post to Dr Harley yesterday and was struck by your saying that Tom finds it negative for you to give him any negative feedback. Dr. Harley said in a phone conversation that our situations are very similar and I see that this is another simillarity. Like you I am stumped as to how to move forward if you are never allowed to say what needs to improve without it causing offence. Like your situation, when I let my H go do what he wanted without trying to pull him into a relationship with me is when he had his affair.

rb123,

There comes a point when it's time to call it quits. I think what we have going for us is that Tom seems to think that his eternal salvation is tied to my willingness to stay in the marriage. Well, 15 hours per week gives me time to try to make our relationship enjoyable, but what I really think needs to happen is that he figures out that a commitment to marriage isn't a test of your wife's tolerance level. That's what the MBW is for. He's been telling me "you're uncommitted" and "you won't forgive me", as if the only problem is that I won't get over his affair and abuse, as if the only person who needs to change is me.

Anyway, I somewhat vented yesterday when I wrote to Dr. Harley. He had said previously that he's thought maybe, just maybe, we could have improved our marriage if Tom and I had attended a MBW, which we never did, we just got the material and paid for the accountability program. Tom gave me a challenge which I would guess he thought not possible, to lose 30 pounds, if I wanted to have us attend the MBW, but I think it is far less work to lose 30 pounds than what I have already been through to try to get him to a MBW.

The good news is we are spending 15 hours per week together. In a few weeks, I'll be flying out to San Francisco (where he goes every week for work) to spend the weekend with him. That should result in 20-30 hours of time alone together. Maybe he'll even try to enjoy my company.

Without time together, there's just no point in continuing. With time together, there's a possibility, and that's all.

What I see with you is that he's not willing to give up his lover, and he's not interested in spending time with you. What's the point? Are you some sort of concubine? As my mother said to me, when I revealed the affair and the abuse, "This isn't Pakistan."

Good luck to you. From what I have read, the less you have to do with that man, the better. He's not willing to put any effort into your relationship, so why should you?
Cherished

Heck, I'm just going to give an update today. We are spending a rolling average of 15 hours per week together. He is very disrespectful. He doesn't meant to be, but he is. For example, he told me how upset he was about something I thought -- that I could bring along our 4 year old to the airport when I bring our 6 year old to go on a plane to visit her aunt. I thought it would be OK. He thought it was terrible that I would even consider doing this rather than getting someone to babysit the 4 year old. We didn't discuss it. We didn't consider calling the airport to see how much of a problem it would be for me to bring two kids past airport security when only one was getting on a plane. Instead, I was told he was very disturbed to be married to someone who would think that. Well, I haven't traveled much since 9.11, and he has. Maybe he's right that it is a big problem, but that's not the point. The point is the complete lack of respect for my opinion or my perspective.

He is making the hours. We have hired a babysitter for the last weekend in February, and I will be going out to San Francisco to stay with him over the weekend. The firm he works for foots most of the bill for my travel -- it's a type of compensation for his travel. They pay for me to go there rather than for him to come here. We'll be on Nob Hill. It would be hard for me not to enjoy that.

He wants to stay married, but he seems to think my lack of commitment is the problem. Oh really? What does he think I should be committed to?

Cherished

You are being completely reasonable, is sounds as if he is trying to regain control or provoke you. Things are changing in your home whether he likes them or not. He is upset because you are in the habit of taking your children places with you? You know what disturbs me? women who breast feed way way too long. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> Taking your kids with you to run errands is not disturbing.

You don't have to be rude, but for the sake of your own confidence, call the airport and find out their rules. You can even find out if it is a common or uncommon question. I would make the same assumption you did.

I have come to realize that it doesn't matter whether I am being reasonable or not. The fact is that he doesn't respect my opinion and try to reach agreement by getting more information. You are right that it is an easy matter to simply call the airport.

This is the same guy who said I was "psychotic" and got me into counseling when I was upset with his relationship with a woman who kept calling him and "it would be rude of me to hang up." I missed completely then that he didn't care how I felt. Same thing here. Same exact thing here.

It turns out I'll be going to San Francisco that same day that I put my daughter on a plane to Los Angeles, so the 4 year old will need to be babysat.

SSDD. At least I recognize it for what it is.

Cherished