Yep exactly, but to be more candidly honest with you....YOUR obsession with averaging the time "spent" togther with Tom is akin to someone being obsessed about treating one's high cholesterol in the face of a fulminating malignant metastasizing INOPERABLE (which is sadly what Tom is with respect to "changing") lung mass.

But you know this already.... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> so it is indeed SSDD

LM

LM --

You know what my sister said to me? "You're trying to fix something that isn't fixable."

The time together is a necessary but not a sufficient condition for recovery of the marriage. If we get to the MB seminar, I hope that he can see the conditions for recovery include he has to care about meeting my needs.

He doesn't.

I can see some of the reasons why. We went to a Catholic marriage seminar last week, and the focus was on how the Catholic view of marriage is that each sacrifices for the other. A marriage of mutual care, where no one sacrifices because each cares about the other so much that there is no willingness to accept sacrifice from the other, was discussed as a worldly view of marriage. Also, his father treated his mother with utmost contempt.

I have changed in being unwilling to tolerate neglect. I am still tolerating contempt. The length of time of tolerance of contempt is until the MBW. You can hold me accountable for that.

I am in a marriage which I would not want my children to tolerate. That is a sobering reality. That is why it needs to end or change. He needs to change. He doesnt want to change. I think he may change if he realizes that he will be divorced if he doesn't.

Cherished

I just need to vent.

On Saturday, before we visited my brother in law and his wife, I brought up that he seems uncomfortable with my drinking -- is there anything I can do? He said, "Don't drink alone." I said, "Fine."

We get to their house, and Tom and his brother play a golf video game while my sister in law and I visit over a glass of wine. After about 15 minutes, he comes in and says, "She's on her third drink. I can tell by her eyes."
I said it was my first.

That night, I said I didn't like what he said. He said, "I can't say anything." I then said, "They got the impression I'm a drunk." He said, "I can't do anything about their impression." I said, "When have you ever seen me have three drinks?" He said, "You get that look that you're drunk with two drinks." I said, "Would you feel more comfortable if I just limited myself to one drink?" "Fine", he said. But what was the point of saying, "She's on her third drink" in front of my brother in law and his wife? Is he setting me up to be an unfit parent?

This morning, we were discussing our first grader who is being tested for ADD. He wanted to show her her report card with 7 check marks (needs improvement) for this past quarter, an improvement over 11 from the prior quarter. He thought we should show her the extent of the problem. I said I think it could really discourage her -- could we inform her in a way that is less likely to be upsetting? We had agreed to tell her that the ADD testing was to find out her talents. I told him that he is setting this up as I win if we don't show her her report card and he wins if we do, and I think we can find other approaches. His response? "Will you shut up and listen?" I said I need to go.

Summer. I'm hanging on until summer. It does appear that my weight gain was emotional eating, using food as an antidepressent. I am trying to eat only for one of four reasons: it is mealtime, for social reasons, I have physical hunger, or something appeals to me. I'm down to 190.4 as of this morning. I started at 190 but got up to 195 last week by focusing only on exercising 10 times per week. Now I will exercise 3 times per week and try to eat only for the four reasons above. I have to weigh below 160 before we go to the MBW this summer.

Cherished

Cherished, your husband reminds me of Slapnuts on the EN board and now posting hostile messages on his STBX wife's thread on Divorced/Divorcing.

I can only see it possible for you to lose weight when you are not allowing yourself to be subjected to mental and emotional cruelty - call a spade a spade - his remarsk to other people are shaming and degrading and cruel and abusive! STOP IT. Just cause he's not sleeping with another woman or beating you up doesn't mean the abuse has stopped.

KaylaAndy,
I think I will lose weight now. I don't need food as a sedative anymore because I'm able to face what I am dealing with. It's abuse. I realize that, but it's nice to have others look at what he says and say it's abuse as well.

We have plans for me to fly out to San Francisco on the 23rd and return on the 26th. I've told him we are separating for a week if our rolling average of 15 hours per week falls below 0. It's at 10 now. I can see his having the hours fall below 0 the week before. If so, it's no accident, and I'm not going to San Francisco. I'm holding to maintaining a rolling average of 15 hours per week.

I did hang up the phone on him this morning after he told me to "shut up." Somehow, it hurts less when I recognize it for what it is. He's blaming me for his cruelty. I'm the problem. Well, I will take 100% blame for my unreasonable demand of 15 hours per week ending this marriage. There is no way I'm working through this emotional and verbal abuse, holding out until the MBW, if he isn't willing to spend time with me. I'm hoping that his accepting spending time with me will result in his seeing that it's in his best interest to be happy with me. I emailed Harley late last month that I was done sending emails to him. I'd stick to the 15 hours and put up with whatever until the summer MBW and then hope that the weekend would be an eye-opener for him as to how to treat me, but I told him it's like a basketball shot from mid-court on the buzzer. This tactic is worth six months maximum and then I'm done. That's why I can lose weight. I'm done. This is not an interminable misery. It has an end point. I have changed in no longer being willing to accept neglect. He's got to change in giving up abuse. If the 15 hours per week doesn't do it, I hope the summer MBW will do it, and if that doesn't do it, then I will be a single mother who cherishes her children and stays as far away from the father of those children as possible.
Cherished

Cherished,

I know this is realy hard and he shur isn't treating you very nice. You are doing great to hang in there as long as you have.

I thought I would add that my son has ADD also. I just recently started him on meds and he is doing much better in school as a result. My H is very critical though and neither I nor my son wanted to discuss this decision with my H. We just decided to do it without telling H anything. I kept the prescription put away and gave it to him in private. My son could have used the meds sooner but I was waiting for him to be old enough to keep it to himself and not tell and open himself up to more criticism.

Yes, rb123, I see it for what it is. I am hoping that the very fact that we are spending 15 hours per week together will lead to some empathy and care. I won't be able to hang on forever. That's why the MBW is so important. As for our daughter, we get an evaluation on the 15th. She's doing well in school because she is very smart, but she does seem to have severe problems with focus. You should see how I get her out the door each morning!
Cherished

I feel pretty ambivalent. Tonight, he called and said I sounded sad. I said that it hurt that he would say I was on my third drink because he could tell by my eyes, and it hurt that he told me to shut up. He then said that I don't listen, that I interrupt, that he was frustrated... I don't really know how to endure this or even if there is any point in enduring it. I guess I've made a commitment to myself to keep on until the summer. Ambivalent people don't make decisions. The only thing I'm not ambivalent about is sticking it out if he isn't even willing to spend 15 hours per week with me.
Cherished

Yep - It's your fault he abuses you - he hasn't changed at all. He's still abusing you - but he thinks you'll tolerate this and he won't get in trouble with the police. He treats you with contempt and blames you for it...

you really think you can take another four months of this????

Things have improved. We actually laughed together last Friday night -- we were at Family Fun Night at our children's school, both of us in one room watching the 6 year old and the 4 year old, and he asked if it was OK if he went out to find a guy who works at his former employer. I didn't want him to go, and we both just laughed. He knew why -- the 4 year old is a handful. He's gone all week. It was nice for him to take his turn at keeping her in line.

I think that's more why I'm hanging on. I think the amount of time spent together could help us to learn empathy for each other. Things have improved since December, but December was dreadful, absolutely dreadful. In two weeks, we spend a weekend together staying at a hotel on Nob Hill in San Francisco.

That's why I'm ambivalent. I can't last as things are. I faced that I couldn't take a marriage of emotional divorce. That means things have to change. Will time alone together, month after month after month, change our relationship to be positive?

I guess I have to find out. Maybe yes. Maybe no. It is my fault he abuses me. I really have to think through how to respond to abuse that won't put him in jail but is just as hurtful as physical abuse. Hanging up on the phone yesterday was appropriate. Maybe that's a start. Just leave. Just remove myself when I am hurt.

Cherished

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Awe....That's good Cherished! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Cherished -i know I never posted before - but I have always read your story and posted to your other thread today.

This is good.

Your husband sounds alot like mine, and a lot like me.

He does have the right to his opinion, and his opinion ot him is probably right - what I bet he is struggling with is that YOU are also intetitled to yours and yours may be right too. And so with that struggle it's hard to let your "rightness" go and respect the other persons opinion.

My husband and I were so bad at this - we both had to force our opinions and POV until we were both exhausted, hurt and bitter...

Hi saying he is sorry if he did anything to offend you...is not sarcasm, but him saying - I am really trying...and even though I think I am still right, I am trying to respect that you may be right too and this goes against everything I know and trust...and so if I acted out - i am sorry...that is how I am reading his sorry.

Sometimes with people like your H, you need to work around his meaning and really know who he is.

The fact he stopped home to drop of valentines makes me believe even more that he is trying. even if you don't see it. men have a MUCH harder time with change...and can only do little bits at a time (well not all men - but most)

Like JL says - slow learners <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Like someone once said do you want to be right, or do you want to be married....he wants to be married but giving up being right is VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY hard - this coming from someone who always wants to be right <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I wrote on your other thread suggestions on how to help him keep talking and opening up to you

He has been abusive in the past with words, as has my H...but try not to assume this behavior is his PAST behavior. try to see around it and keep encouraging good communication and behavior - that way he keeps changing and progressing.

It's abuse. I realize that, but it's nice to have others look at what he says and say it's abuse as well.

Nice? Nice? What an odd choice of word there Cherished.

What is "nice" about it?

Is that what you want....others to validate that you are a victim...and being abused?

I got news for you...you aren't a victim. You, my dear, are a VOLUNTEER .

This crappola about "rolling average" this and "rolling average" that is well, ....crappola.

If it keeps you where you want to be...Volunteer status...go for it. It has become so robotic.

committed

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Now if you'd just set some boundaries about the verbal abuse - but dear Cherished - you have to get so YOU recognize it and respond to it by hanging up, leaving the room, leaving the relationship NOW - not after he also abuses you for 15 hrs per week, not until you finally lose 30 pounds so he will go to MBW with you... NOW!!!!!

NOW???

You get it??

NOW??

That's the difference between a boundary and an ultimatum - yours still classifies as an ultimatum because the consequences are nebulusly dated sometime ambiguously in the future - sometime - when his rolling average of hours of abuse fall below 0 - sometime - in the future - when you start to recognize that you're sticking up for him - calling his less stinky abuse "good behavior"...

NOW???

I agree with KaylaAndy. Cherished, you have NOT set a boundary here. Instead, you have given your husband an ultimatum: "Spend 15 hours a week with me, or I will leave."

It's an ultimatum because you are trying to force him to do a specific thing (spend time with you) with the threat of consequences (separation) if he doesn't do what you want.

And it's a worthless ultimatum because you have no way of enforcing it. What, exactly, do you intend to do when your "rolling average" falls below your minimum?

You won't do a thing. Your WH knows this.

A boundary would have been, "I will not stay married to a man who does not not value me and does not want to spend time with me." Then you remove YOURSELF and YOUR CHILDREN and you STAY GONE unless and until HE makes some move on his own to show you that he values you and wants to spend time with you.

See the difference?
Mulan