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Why don't you just come out and say it MM.Is this belief pointing at me and what I said?(if not then I apologize for the mistaken assumption): What I dont respect is a person that says they are against the death penalty, but would allow for the woman's right to kill an innocent human who had no choice but to be conceived I never said I am against killing in each and every situation.I am against the death penalty because it is a flawed way of handling criminals.If one innocent person is killed because someone screwed up and didn't have all the facts or mislead the jury,etc so he/she is put on death row,then that to me is wrong.So,until that is resolved and there is no chance an innocent man/woman is put to death by the "hands of our government",I oppose the death penalty. O
BW(me)40
DDay 10/11/03
Divorcing
'The Reformer'- enneagram type 1
~Let Higher Minds Prevail~
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~Life isn't complicated,we make it that way~
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mimi
I just need to tell you - I am or should I say was a catholic - I know this is off topic but I wanted you to know - I went to church faithfully - took my 3 children by myself while my ex stayed at home and slept. He never took part in any of the religion - except - first communions etc - didn't even show to the kids Christmas programs - now - the affair - the ow went to church every Sunday - of course this exonerated all her affairs and yes there were many - so after my ex left me - quess who decides he's found god and needs to be in church every Sunday - yep - you guessed it - the adulterer. And then In January of 05 I get annulment papers - and yep - they granted it to him - now I could have fought it but at what price? He paid at least $1,000 or more to get this annulment and she is doing the same thing - I don't know if her's was granted but it really kills me - here they both cheated and broke up two families - we were married 25 years and she was married 12 - I always thought annulments were for short childless marriages - but I found out they were for whoever wanted to pay for them. I think of all the things my ex did and the church did - this was the most hurtful. Telling me that 25 years of my life weren't valid. How can that be?
So needless to say - I am an ex Catholic but they have a cheater in their congregation now who wasn't there before. Just think long and hard about it.
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No, a pro-life would know that Jesus and the Bible authorize capital punishment Where is it stated that Jesus AUTHORIZES capital punishment? Okay, some Bible verses: Genesis 9:5-6: "And surely your blood of your lives will I require; at the hand of every beast will I require it, and at the hand of man; at the hand of every man's brother will I require the life of man. Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man." And... Leviticus 24:17-22: "And he that killeth any man shall surely be put to death.
18 And he that killeth a beast shall make it good; beast for beast.
19 And if a man cause a blemish in his neighbour; as he hath done, so shall it be done to him;
20 Breach for breach, eye for eye, tooth for tooth: as he hath caused a blemish in a man, so shall it be done to him again.
21 And he that killeth a beast, he shall restore it: and he that killeth a man, he shall be put to death.
22 Ye shall have one manner of law, as well for the stranger, as for one of your own country: for I am the LORD your God." So, God authorized capital punishment i nthe Old Testament. Okay, so you say that is Old Testament...that we live under the New Covenant. Here you go... John 19:11: "Jesus answered, Thou couldest have no power at all against me, except it were given thee from above..." And: Romans 13 (RSV)
1 Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God.
2 Therefore he who resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment.
3 For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Would you have no fear of him who is in authority? Then do what is good, and you will receive his approval,
4 for he is God's servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain; he is the servant of God to execute his wrath on the wrongdoer.
5 Therefore one must be subject, not only to avoid God's wrath but also for the sake of conscience. So, we are subject to the governments instituted by God...except where they over rule God. Now, we get to Jesus. Did he change the Old Testament around? Matthew 5:17: "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil." So, He came to fulfill the Old Testament. He knew it word for word...afterall, He wrote it! And while He was on this Earth, He affirmed the law. His Father allowed capital punishment. Even commanded it at times. Now, how about when Jesus comes back? Anyone want to bet it wont be "little Jesus meek and mild?" Rev 1:7 BEHOLD, HE IS COMING WITH THE CLOUDS, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him; and all the tribes of the earth will mourn over Him. So it is to be. Amen.
Rev 1:13 and in the middle of the lampstands {I saw} one like a son of man, clothed in a robe reaching to the feet, and girded across His chest with a golden sash.
Rev 1:14 His head and His hair were white like white wool, like snow; and His eyes were like a flame of fire.
Rev 1:15 His feet {were} like burnished bronze, when it has been made to glow in a furnace, and His voice {was} like the sound of many waters.
Rev 1:16 In His right hand He held seven stars, and out of His mouth came a sharp two-edged sword; and His face was like the sun shining in its strength. Sounds like a soldier dressed for battle, huh? When Jesus comes back, He wont be working miracles...He will be taking over. By His mighty sword. Rev 1:17 When I saw Him, I fell at His feet like a dead man. And He placed His right hand on me, saying, "Do not be afraid; I am the first and the last,
Rev 1:18 and the living One; and I was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of death and of Hades.
Rev 2:20 'But I have {this} against you, that you tolerate the woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess, and she teaches and leads My bond-servants astray so that they commit {acts of} immorality and eat things sacrificed to idols.
Rev 2:21 'I gave her time to repent, and she does not want to repent of her immorality.
Rev 2:22 'Behold, I will throw her on a bed {of sickness,} and those who commit adultery with her into great tribulation, unless they repent of her deeds.
Rev 2:23 'And I will kill her children with pestilence, and all the churches will know that I am He who searches the minds and hearts; and I will give to each one of you according to your deeds.
Rev 2:24 'But I say to you, the rest who are in Thyatira, who do not hold this teaching, who have not known the deep things of Satan, as they call them--I place no other burden on you.
Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death. David committed adultery with Bathsheba (murder aswell). Guess what God did? He killed their first born. How about the times in the Old Testament, where God commands Israel to wipe out another nation...children and all? Want to bet God isnt for capital punishment? Everyone once to look at Jesus as this skinny guy who did miracles and spread love. And while those are a part of His character, they are not the whole of His character. Jesus went thru the temple whipping people...beating them. That sound loving? That sound compassionate? Your darn right it was loving and compassionate because those people were leading people away from God...in God's temple. They deserved their flogging. He is also a God of justice. that is why EVERYONE of us is condemned to death already. All of us are on death row, thanks to Adam. The love came when He offered His Son to make payment for our sins, so that we may be set free. And while we will suffer the death of this life (unless he comes back before we die), we do not have to suffer the second death. If we accept His payment for our sins, then we can be made whole. Something none of us could do for Tookie. Jesus is more than jsut a little baby in a manger. That birth, while miraculous...those miracles, while loving...did not save ONE person. It was His death that He came for. It was the Cross where He did something for all of humanity. It is His return, when Satan, his demons and all of the people that did not come to Jesus, will be forever swept away. God says we are to fear Him. Not in a cowering, scardd sort of way. But in the same way that we fear our fathers. It is respect. Respect for His power, His judgment. And whil He will hold us in His arms when we need a hug...He also will darn well put His hand on our backsides when we need that too. That is, he will hug or spank His followers. He will do nothing to or for the unbeliever until judgement time comes. As a Father, He only spanks His children...those who are a part of his family. that is how you know you are a part of His family. Not only the blessings and hugs and comfort He gives you...but also the correcting spank on your butt. Unbelievers have no such guidance...and no such love being shown them. Please, the Bible is ripe with even more sections about the power and judgment of God. Please do not lose site of Jesus in His entirety. In His arms.
Standing in His PresenceFBS (me) (48) FWW (41) Married April 1993... 4 kids (19(B), 17(G), 14(B), 4(B)) Blessed by God more than I deserve "If Jesus is your co-pilot...you need to change seats!"Link: The Roles of Husbands and Wives
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Why don't you just come out and say it MM.Is this belief pointing at me and what I said?(if not then I apologize for the mistaken assumption): What I dont respect is a person that says they are against the death penalty, but would allow for the woman's right to kill an innocent human who had no choice but to be conceived I never said I am against killing in each and every situation.I am against the death penalty because it is a flawed way of handling criminals.If one innocent person is killed because someone screwed up and didn't have all the facts or mislead the jury,etc so he/she is put on death row,then that to me is wrong.So,until that is resolved and there is no chance an innocent man/woman is put to death by the "hands of our government",I oppose the death penalty. O No, this wasnt pointed at you specifically. It is a general statement about the position some take. Now, no one in this country can name a person that has been tried and put to death and wasnt guilty. Not one. if there was one, their face, their name, would come up and be on placards outside San Quentin and every other execution. There has not been proven to be one execution that was not deserved. Again, I can respect a person's view (like the Catholic Church) that they do not believe in the death penalty. That there might be a better way. I can respect that!!! What I cant respect is those that are against the death penalty, but at the same time consign the innocent child in the womb to die because they are inconvenient. Or they cant afford a baby right now. Or they have too many kids. Or the condom broke. Or I just couldnt plain control myself. These are hollow and pitiful reasons to destroy a human life. I am for the death penalty, not because of deterence. If it deters, great. If it doesnt, that's okay too. I am for the death penalty for the same reason I have no problem as a soldier, shooting a terrorist. I wont lay awake at night despondent over his death.. I will not question whether he deserved to die. He is guilty...plain and simple. Since he is guilty, and as I have shown in my previous post that God established governments, then his guilt can be punished by God. And God has allowed (and even commanded at times) capital punishment. Thus, if the government rightfully charges someone with murder, then the government receives the right from God to conduct that execution. Do I believe that I have a right to do so of my own accord? No. In the name of the government of the United States and in the name of Jesus, do I believe I have the right when I am deployed to shoot and kill terrorists. Absolutely. But again, I have no problem with people against the death penalty. But the ones that are against it, but for abortion...have to do backflips over their inconsistencies. And one day, I do believe, science will continue to improve and will show that life does begin at conception. Personally, as you said about the executions, I would rather side with the baby until I know for sure that it isnt a baby. because wont it be the saddest day of all when I wake up and find out that I was a part of killing my own child, and did so because I didnt know whether it was alive or not. No one will be able to console me then!! And if you dont think I dont know, and my wife doesnt know what I am talking about, I can tell you I have firsthand experience in this and can elaborate, if need be. In His arms.
Standing in His PresenceFBS (me) (48) FWW (41) Married April 1993... 4 kids (19(B), 17(G), 14(B), 4(B)) Blessed by God more than I deserve "If Jesus is your co-pilot...you need to change seats!"Link: The Roles of Husbands and Wives
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mimi
I just need to tell you - I am or should I say was a catholic - I know this is off topic but I wanted you to know - I went to church faithfully - took my 3 children by myself while my ex stayed at home and slept. He never took part in any of the religion - except - first communions etc - didn't even show to the kids Christmas programs - now - the affair - the ow went to church every Sunday - of course this exonerated all her affairs and yes there were many - so after my ex left me - quess who decides he's found god and needs to be in church every Sunday - yep - you guessed it - the adulterer. And then In January of 05 I get annulment papers - and yep - they granted it to him - now I could have fought it but at what price? He paid at least $1,000 or more to get this annulment and she is doing the same thing - I don't know if her's was granted but it really kills me - here they both cheated and broke up two families - we were married 25 years and she was married 12 - I always thought annulments were for short childless marriages - but I found out they were for whoever wanted to pay for them. I think of all the things my ex did and the church did - this was the most hurtful. Telling me that 25 years of my life weren't valid. How can that be?
So needless to say - I am an ex Catholic but they have a cheater in their congregation now who wasn't there before. Just think long and hard about it. Which is one of my biggest beefs with the Catholic Church. Nowhere in the Bible does it say that the church can annul what God put together. As a matter of fact, it says exactly the opposite. Just as with every church there are flaws because man is involved, I find this one of the biggest flaws in the Catholic Church and it is leading people into annulments that are not recognized by God, which mean people are heading off into other marriages that are not sanctioned by God. And they are thus committing adultery. It is a shame! But, I will say...God sees what your husband has done. If he truly is repenting and wants to draw close to God, then God will forgive him. if this is all a show, then it is best you are not near your husband (your ex, according to the Catholic Church) because God is going to put a whooping on him. And if he doesnt get that spanking, then you will know that he probably isnt saved. Which means he is in the worse possible place he could ever be. Take care of you. Prayers go out for you and your family! In His arms.
Standing in His PresenceFBS (me) (48) FWW (41) Married April 1993... 4 kids (19(B), 17(G), 14(B), 4(B)) Blessed by God more than I deserve "If Jesus is your co-pilot...you need to change seats!"Link: The Roles of Husbands and Wives
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HAPPY AND FOREVER HERS: There has just been some discussion between us about this... We are not making major steps towards such CONVERSION... We mainly like the small Catholic Church near our house and the people who attend there.... The issue of annulment gives me a good reason to reconsider this... We are searching for a PLACE OF WORSHIP after suffering from the HYPOCRICY and BETRAYAL that we both encountered at our previous church... Long Story... Thanks for your interest and information... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />
I made it happen..a joyful life..filled with peace, contentment, happiness and fabulocity.
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"Now, no one in this country can name a person that has been tried and put to death and wasnt guilty"
Actually MM, there have been many put to death, and several cases where someone later confessed. There was a case several months ago where a black woman sentenced to death for killing a white guard that raped her was exonerated. Unfortunately they executed her 35 years ago.
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Wow...I didn't know that this debate was raging here today.
Without diving into the deep end, allow me a quick exception to Jimmy Macks assertion of "cuteness".
Could I offer instead that the measure is "innocence" & "accountability"? There may be an incidental connection between cuteness and accountability, but it is a mistake to assume they are synonomous.
BTW - I am pro-life AND pro-death penalty. I do not see a contradiction.
However, lest I be painted with a broad brush, let me say that I'm not one of the pro-death crowd that stands outside the gate yelling "fry 'um". I think any loss of human life, whether in war (on either side) or through judicial justice is a tragic waste of God's greatest gift to us...which is human life and its potential.
For Mimi....are you and H in theological agreement with the Catholic church?
Georgia
Formerly G.G. and Jeb
Me: BS 50
She: xW 50
Jeb: Mini Schnauzer
Married: 29 yrs
Children: MM25, MM23
Plan B - 12/06/04
Divorced - 11/17/05
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MM...this is your interpretation (and a lot of other's) of these scriptures.
A lot of scriptures seem to advocate slavery and child abuse. Scripture has been used to justify prohibition of interracial relations. It's been used to justify polygamy.
Scripture can be used to justify just about anything you want it to, if you decide to interpret it in a given light.
For me, it comes down to this:
Based on the Holy Spirit's guidance of me through prayer, scripture, and experience with those around me, does capital punishment fit in the context of our society today? (This, in fact, is the approach I take to ALL manner of scriptural guidance)
You see...I believe the scriptures to be an account of God's interaction with those people...at that time. We use them to gain insight into how we think God might act in our world today.
Given the love that Jesus demonstrated for fallen man, I believe he'd rather me advocate a means of protecting society that doesn't involve destroying life if it is available. Abortion is abhorrent. So is war.
Destruction of human life at the hand of man should NEVER occur where other options are available.
There are absolutely alternative to the death penalty.
It is a mistake to lift scriptures whole and apply them without prayer and consideration.
It also worth adding that you cannot justify death of one man at the hand of another by Jesus righteous behavior in Revelation...
Christ is the ONLY One who is qualified to judge, as He can do so without error.
When we are able to judge in the same inerrant way, I will put away my concerns about the death penalty.
BTW, do you still stone your children when they are unruly? Any mixed fabrics in your wardrobe? Just something to consider.
Last edited by LowOrbit; 12/13/05 02:29 PM.
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We are searching for a PLACE OF WORSHIP after suffering from the HYPOCRICY and BETRAYAL that we both encountered at our previous church... I'm sorry you've had to experience that trauma...I've been there myself, mimi. I point to it as being the pivotal event in the downward spiral of my life that led to my affair. Anyway, just wanted to let you know that you aren't alone. I'm still looking for a church I can trust, too. Low
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Formerly GG, However, lest I be painted with a broad brush, let me say that I'm not one of the pro-death crowd that stands outside the gate yelling "fry 'um". I think any loss of human life, whether in war (on either side) or through judicial justice is a tragic waste of God's greatest gift to us...which is human life and its potential. I could not have said it better myself. I agree entirely!! In His arms.
Standing in His PresenceFBS (me) (48) FWW (41) Married April 1993... 4 kids (19(B), 17(G), 14(B), 4(B)) Blessed by God more than I deserve "If Jesus is your co-pilot...you need to change seats!"Link: The Roles of Husbands and Wives
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Mortarman
Just wanted to thank you for your kind words. Honestly I was in a state of shock that the church would even consider it and then when it was granted - it was just hard to believe. And in my heart I know he is not being repentent - he started going when she was still with her ex husband to see her on Sundays too - see he works with her - and now he has to keep the farce going you see. But whatever. I am happy with my life the way it is but still find the hypocrisy of the Catholic church unbelievable. My youngest son called me one day and he was so hurt by the annulment - I did explain to him that it had nothing to do with him - according to the church it has no effect on the children but that also makes me wonder - how can a marriage be invalid but the children not be affected? That's another issue. He was so angry - he said you'll never guess what dad is wearing - i said what and he said a cross - I'm sure the ow gave it to him and of course he would have to wear it - this is the same man who didn't wear a piece of jewelry - not even his wedding ring for 30 years or more - and I just had to laugh - finally my son did too - I felt bad for him though - he remembers all the church things my ex missed. But again - we have all accepted what happened and I have a wonderful man in my life.
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There has not been proven to be one execution that was not deserved. This is not true, MM.. There's been many a black man lynched in the South for just supposedly "looking" at a white woman... I'm sure that I could name many instances of this.. Not really necessary here though...
I made it happen..a joyful life..filled with peace, contentment, happiness and fabulocity.
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We are searching for a PLACE OF WORSHIP after suffering from the HYPOCRICY and BETRAYAL that we both encountered at our previous church...
Long Story... Scary Mimi. We were searching too. I told my husband we were going to find a church that fit if we had to visit 100 churches. (I'm still Baptist, but no longer Southern Baptist.) We found it and changed churches about 4 years ago. It has been wonderful for us and for our recovery as well. New friends and new opportunities for service. Susan <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />
Money can buy you a fine dog, but only love can make him wag his tail.
~ Kinky Friedman
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Mortarman
Just wanted to thank you for your kind words. Honestly I was in a state of shock that the church would even consider it and then when it was granted - it was just hard to believe. And in my heart I know he is not being repentent - he started going when she was still with her ex husband to see her on Sundays too - see he works with her - and now he has to keep the farce going you see. But whatever. I am happy with my life the way it is but still find the hypocrisy of the Catholic church unbelievable. My youngest son called me one day and he was so hurt by the annulment - I did explain to him that it had nothing to do with him - according to the church it has no effect on the children but that also makes me wonder - how can a marriage be invalid but the children not be affected? That is one of the big problems with this. If the marriage is annulled, that makes the children born of an unwed mother. Which by definition makes them "******." On so many levels, most importantly with the Bible, the Catholic Church is just plain wrong about this. Just tell your younguns as you have...that this has nothing to do with them. That they can have their relationship with Christ no matter what. Later on, if you'd like when they are older, you can explain to them that the Bible does not allow annulments and that their father was guilty of adultery. They will need this information because they will need to know what and why things happened, so they can steer clear of repeating your husband's mistakes...all under the guise that he made it "all better" by having his sins swept under the rug by the church. God never sweeps sin under the rug. Someone has to pay for those sins. Right now...they rest entirely on your husband!! That's another issue. He was so angry - he said you'll never guess what dad is wearing - i said what and he said a cross - I'm sure the ow gave it to him and of course he would have to wear it - this is the same man who didn't wear a piece of jewelry - not even his wedding ring for 30 years or more - and I just had to laugh - finally my son did too - I felt bad for him though - he remembers all the church things my ex missed. But again - we have all accepted what happened and I have a wonderful man in my life. Just because I might sleep in a garage, does not make me a Ford Mustang. Just because he wears a Cross and goes to church, does not make him a Christian or saved. As Jesus has said, there will be many that call Him Lord, but He will say "I never knew you." Stay with the Bible in dealing with your kids. Find a church that teaches Scripture. The Lord will help you keep them straight and comfort to all of you. In His arms.
Standing in His PresenceFBS (me) (48) FWW (41) Married April 1993... 4 kids (19(B), 17(G), 14(B), 4(B)) Blessed by God more than I deserve "If Jesus is your co-pilot...you need to change seats!"Link: The Roles of Husbands and Wives
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JimmyMac-
I'm a pro-choice voter who also supports the death penalty. My husband and I are moderate Democrats. We're also a military family. I think people would be surprised to know just how many of 'us' there are.
Mimi-
Good luck with your search for a spiritual home. You shouldn't feel as if you need to defend or explain yourself or your decisions to anyone here. I think its insulting and arrogant that anyone would need you to.
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Susan: I like that idea of continuing to visit until we find the RIGHT FIT... We've have just now gotten to THIS PLACE in our RECOVERY.... Time to branch out from our focus just on each other... MM: Please point out to me where it is SPECIFICALLY STATED in the SCRIPTURES that GOD/JESUS AUTHORIZES CAPITAL PUNISHMENT... I still read and interpret those scriptures to say that vengeance is in GOD'S hands.. Where does it SPECIFICALLY state that MAN can carry out GOD'S PUNISHMENTS.. A mortal man...NOT GOD.... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />
I made it happen..a joyful life..filled with peace, contentment, happiness and fabulocity.
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There has not been proven to be one execution that was not deserved. This is not true, MM.. There's been many a black man lynched in the South for just supposedly "looking" at a white woman... I'm sure that I could name many instances of this.. Not really necessary here though... Lynched?? Okay, if you call that an execution. Let me rephrase this. Since we have allowed the death penalty in the US (I think it started back up i nthe 1970's), there has not been ONE person to have been found executed that was later found to be innocent. If there is, someone please tell Joan Baez and Je$$e Jackson so they can put this guy or gal out there as the example. because you do not hear ONE. And these people would screm the name loudly if it were true. And let me take for a moment to say there was one tragic case...just one...where someone was executed wrongly. Still, should that affect whether we have the death penalty? Certainly not. Just as a police office that shoots someone and it is later found out that they didnt have a gun in their hand, but instead a cucumber...should we take guns away from the cops. We are human. Mistakes are made. And sometimes, people die when making those mistakes. What Tookie did was NO MISTAKE! In His arms.
Standing in His PresenceFBS (me) (48) FWW (41) Married April 1993... 4 kids (19(B), 17(G), 14(B), 4(B)) Blessed by God more than I deserve "If Jesus is your co-pilot...you need to change seats!"Link: The Roles of Husbands and Wives
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Joined: Dec 1969
Posts: 3,073 |
I like that idea of continuing to visit until we find the RIGHT FIT... We started visiting at Christmas and visited the same church until Easter. Finally I told my husband I was ready to join. We laugh and say I was worried about my obituary. I didn't want it to say "she was a member of the Baptist faith". LOL I wanted to be a member of a specific church that I called home. Most of our old friends were aware of the A's in our old church. In our new church they are not and it is a good feeling. Susan <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />
Money can buy you a fine dog, but only love can make him wag his tail.
~ Kinky Friedman
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Joined: May 2005
Posts: 104
Member
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Member
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 104 |
Mortarman,
They are older - all grown and gone - I should have explained that - but my youngest son has a few emotional problems and he and his father never got along and to him this was one more slap in the face - he actually wanted to change his last name - I did when the marriage was over - back to my maiden name - I asked him not too for his grandmother's sake. My oldest two have handled everything very well - it's just my youngest that isn't doing so well. I did ask about that - about the children and the fact that if I was never married in the eyes of the church how can my children not be ******** - oh it's different now was the explanation I got - LOL - but again I know what he did and so does god and that is what's important. Thank you for all your insight.
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