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I don't understand.
So far the following rationalizations have been offered for the death penalty:
1. OT law
2. Jesus's "fulfillment of the law" plus his silence on the issue
3. Paul's upholding of the right of governments to determine and carry out punishment
4. Instances of punishment by death in Revelation
The first example gets us into the murky territory of literalism. I don't have a tent in my backyard to head into when I menstruate. So why should I arbitrarily support another OT law?
Which leads to the second example. The example given of Jesus and the woman caught in adultery does not, in my reading, condone the death penalty. If anything, it points to the inability of any human to take the life of another based on the acknowledgement that all are sinful and hypocritical. The woman was caught in adultery. OT law was clear. If Jesus upheld the law while granting the woman mercy by pointing to the personal guilt of the accusers, why do we not do the same with those holding the needle for lethal injection? Because the jury in Tookie's case were not hypocrites. They were not guilty of murder, so they could judge whether Tookie was guilty of murder. Using your logic, we could never put anyone in jail...because we cant jusge. That is NOT what the Bible says or what Jesus was saying. Read my previous post a few minuted ago. Plus, there *was* someone there who had no sin in him. Who had every right to cast the first stone. Jesus. Instead of picking up a stone and taking aim at the woman, he chose to write. Why? If we are taking his silence on the issue of capital punishment as tacit approval of the OT law, then why are we discounting his actions? There wasnt silence. He said there were no witnesses. Plus there was no man. The Law was specific. Jesus couldnt stone her because the witnesses had left...and in order to stone her, he would have to stone the man also. And he was not there. Jesus wasnt quiet on it. He was following the Law!! Which leads us to Paul. If the government of America and its decisions are to be supported, then so is the government of Canada and its decisions. We don't have capital punishment in Canada. So then it is simply a death row inmate's misfortune to be born in a country or poor choice to commit a murder in a country that believes in a particular consequence? True. In another related example, many of us pre-A would have said that the consequences of adultery would and should be divorce. We tell all new WSs that the legitimate consequence for their actions is divorce but encourage them to be remorseful and hope for mercy on the part of the BS. We encourage BSs to exercise mercy based on signs of true repentance. Would it not be the more "just" thing to thunder at all BSs to head straight to divorce court to ensure WSs receive the consequences of their actions?
G So, why dont we just forgive Tookie and let him out of jail?? Just let him go, afterall...we forgave him. Come on. Divorce is NOT what God wants. He will NEVER tell you to divorce your spouse. NEVER. Heading to divorce court is against God's will, for either the WS or the BS. In His arms.
Standing in His PresenceFBS (me) (48) FWW (41) Married April 1993... 4 kids (19(B), 17(G), 14(B), 4(B)) Blessed by God more than I deserve "If Jesus is your co-pilot...you need to change seats!"Link: The Roles of Husbands and Wives
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LOW O..THIS ALSO IS MY POINT OF VIEW..I COULDN'T HAVE SAID IT ANY CLEARER OR BETTER... God, Himself specifically directs the execution of an individual.
He is the ONLY One I trust to make that kind of decision.
Low And He does so thru humans today. He isnt a God that is just out there watching things go on. He is actively engaged in our lives. In His arms.
Standing in His PresenceFBS (me) (48) FWW (41) Married April 1993... 4 kids (19(B), 17(G), 14(B), 4(B)) Blessed by God more than I deserve "If Jesus is your co-pilot...you need to change seats!"Link: The Roles of Husbands and Wives
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Here is my peculiar view. During my husband's affair after he broke my arm, I kept saying to myself, "Not even Ted Bundy deserves to be treated like this."
My husband's treatment of me was despicable, but I was blamed for it and hid it because I thought I was to blame. The death penalty says that some people deserve to die. Then it is only a matter of judgment who deserves to die. Heck, my husband's judgment was that I was the problem -- I deserved a broken arm: did I deserve to die?
The assisted suicide debate and the death penalty debate have new meaning for me because of how I was treated. A society which values all life -- Terry Schaivo's, Ted Bundy's, etc. -- will have fewer domestic assaults and less violence. IMHO.
Cherished
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I find everyone's comments on this thread very interesting. There are many diverse opionions about abortion and the death penalty....it makes me proud to be an American that we all live in a country where we can agree to disagree <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
I am pro choice.....and against the death penalty, and I'll tell you why...
I don't want the government intervening on our bodies or the decisions of life and death.
I do not engage in the debate over morality, or even religious positions because their are so many varied opinions out there that do not represent the whole.....it's really a non-issue.
I completely understand how both of these topics can be emotional triggers for many.....for me it's not.
The government has no right to tell me what to do or not to do with my body, and they don't have the right to take a life...period. There's no contradiction there for me. Do I as a solider, have a right to go to Afghanistan and hunt down and kill Osama Bin Laden? We all make choices in life, and we have to live with those choices even if it means we sit in prison for the rest of our lives thinking about what we did...and the same goes for abortion. In abortion, the person losing their life doesnt get a choice! But I firmly believe that's between the person and their higher power.
But no human man/woman will tell me what I can do with my own body and when someone who commits a crime should die.
Thanks for letting me share,
Rachel I understand your position Rachel. But they are intellectually inconsistent. To say that the government cannot take a life, but a woman can if that life is inside her body, is to just put personal semantics and values on human life. Death isnt decided based on guilt or innocence. It is decided based on where a person resides (inside the womb or outside). That is a very slippery slope logically. This is why I respect the Catholic Church's position (although dont agree with it). They are bot prolife and against the death penalty. They say ALL life is valuable, all life deserves to live. No matter what that life has done. No matter where that life resides. That is very consistent and I can respect that. To take the stance that just because a child is inside a woman's body, that it has no value and can be destroyed by that woman...but a person guilty of destroying 100s of lives must be spared. A very slippery slope. I am not attacking you Rachel!! Please do not think that. I just wanted to bring out that intellectually, this position really cannot be supported. Emotionally, yes. But intellectually...no. In His arms.
Standing in His PresenceFBS (me) (48) FWW (41) Married April 1993... 4 kids (19(B), 17(G), 14(B), 4(B)) Blessed by God more than I deserve "If Jesus is your co-pilot...you need to change seats!"Link: The Roles of Husbands and Wives
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Here is my peculiar view. During my husband's affair after he broke my arm, I kept saying to myself, "Not even Ted Bundy deserves to be treated like this."
My husband's treatment of me was despicable, but I was blamed for it and hid it because I thought I was to blame. The death penalty says that some people deserve to die. Then it is only a matter of judgment who deserves to die. Heck, my husband's judgment was that I was the problem -- I deserved a broken arm: did I deserve to die?
The assisted suicide debate and the death penalty debate have new meaning for me because of how I was treated. A society which values all life -- Terry Schaivo's, Ted Bundy's, etc. -- will have fewer domestic assaults and less violence. IMHO.
Cherished True Cherished!! I would just say that your husband's judgment was not a moral judgment, nor legal...nor even of God. Thus, his judgment really doesnt count. In His arms.
Standing in His PresenceFBS (me) (48) FWW (41) Married April 1993... 4 kids (19(B), 17(G), 14(B), 4(B)) Blessed by God more than I deserve "If Jesus is your co-pilot...you need to change seats!"Link: The Roles of Husbands and Wives
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What about the inequities in our criminal justice system?
What about the high likelihood of murderers with high-price lawyers getting off?
What about the higher likelihood of the lower-class getting the death penalty?
I think that my GOD and my JESUS would not condone this...
G and Lo..I agree with the GOVERNMENT not PLAYING GOD...
There is inherent DANGER with MAN making GODLY DECISIONS....about HUMAN LIFE...
IMHO.... True. There is danger with man making decisions liek this. we make mistakes. We are human. This is why Christians are told to not take another Christian to court. Tha tthey are to take them to the church. Why? Because that judge downtown may not be a Christian, which means he is not trying to do God's will. A decision by a church court, made up of Christians, will (although they even make mistakes because they arent following God at the time) be true and just. You see, if we watied for perfection before judging , before rendering verdicts...then no one would go to jail. And we would have to wait for Jesus' Second Coming for perfectio not return. As I said before, as a soldier, I knwo we sometimes make mistakes that cost innocent peopel their lives, or their property, or they are maimed. Should we then not go to war, not protect our country, not hunt down terrorists? Should the fact that police officers have shot the wrong person mean that they should never shoot anyone? Should the government never lock anyone up, because we have imprisoned people wrongly before? Society cannot operate this way. Yes, mistakes have and will be made. Some of them are deadly. As a Christian, you must remember that this is only a temporary stop (this life). In the grand scheme of things, it really isnt that important. What is important is your eternity with Christ. If you, or me, or any Christian, follows Christ in our every step, then we will never, ever make a wrong decision. Never! In His arms.
Standing in His PresenceFBS (me) (48) FWW (41) Married April 1993... 4 kids (19(B), 17(G), 14(B), 4(B)) Blessed by God more than I deserve "If Jesus is your co-pilot...you need to change seats!"Link: The Roles of Husbands and Wives
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However, along with the government....I don't have the right to pull the switch on a convict nor the right to judge anothers choice on her pregnancy. But a person getting an abortion has the right to "pull the switch" on the execution of that child? rachel, as I said...this intellectually does not add up. In His arms.
Standing in His PresenceFBS (me) (48) FWW (41) Married April 1993... 4 kids (19(B), 17(G), 14(B), 4(B)) Blessed by God more than I deserve "If Jesus is your co-pilot...you need to change seats!"Link: The Roles of Husbands and Wives
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So if a pregnant woman carrying a 30 week baby in her uterus decises she wants to terminate the pregnancy, you're all for it? Late term abortions are only legal until 24 weeks....not to mention it's a completely different procedure all together after the 16th week. No one condones aborting a fetus that could live with medical assistance outside the womb.... Yes they do!! It is legal to have a late term abortion on a child that could survive. It is legal to have an abortion whether your for it or not. The goverment has decided a womans right to her body is inherent. And their has been years where it wasn't and the deaths of woman who attempted to do it on their own without proper medical care was tradjec. The American people have also decided that it is legal to execute a murderer. For example should we condone 10 year old child soldiers to fight in wars because we recruit 17 year old in our own military? We dont NEED 10 year olds to fight. But there was atime when we did...and we did have young teenagers fighting (Revolutionary War). So, I'm not getting your point here. There's a huge difference between early and late term abortions. And what is that difference? Just that the baby could survive without the mother? That is just semantics. Christopher Reeves could not survive without the assistance of others, especially his wife. But no one was saying that anyone had a right to put him down. What do you think ought to happen to the UCLA woman who left her baby in a dumpster? The baby died.... but if she'd made her personal decision to have an abortion a week earlier ... no murder charge... right by you? I don't know this case, however, I wouldn't agree to gas her if that's what your asking... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> But the question was...did she murder her child, or did she just abort it? And what's the difference? We can't solve for all problems it would be impossible. There will always be the crazies in the world, the people who take advantage of the system,those who are criminal, and then those who are just plain ignorant.
The bottom line, is we can only make those major life and death decisions for ourselves. So let the baby decide if it wants to die first! Its mother really does nto have that right, although right now the Surpreme Court ignored the Constitution and allows it. Yes, it is sad their are those women out there who dump their babies in the trash, however, can you imagine how many more would be abandoned, neglected, diabled, hurt, dumped if abortion was illegal?
Rachel Again, what is the difference? Dump baby in dumster...or have its body sucked out of its mother? Really, we are only talkign about location and circumstances. Rachel, I am not even getting into the moral, ethical or religious part of this. I am jsut staying in the intellectual area...and this just does not add up. Way to many exceptions and I dont knows. Way to many "well, in thsi case it is this way, but in that case it is that way." Everything is not grey. In His arms.
Standing in His PresenceFBS (me) (48) FWW (41) Married April 1993... 4 kids (19(B), 17(G), 14(B), 4(B)) Blessed by God more than I deserve "If Jesus is your co-pilot...you need to change seats!"Link: The Roles of Husbands and Wives
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I'm curious about something. In my experience, discussions of this nature shed a great deal more heat than light, and in the end, everybody's still pretty much left thinking whatever it was they thought when they started. So here's my question...
Has anybody on this thread actually had their mind changed by what they've read here over the last few days, about any aspect of either abortion or the death penalty? Maybe because of something you hadn't considered before, and it made you go, "Hm-m-m-m-m. Maybe up till now I've been wrong."
I suspect not, but I'm still curious.
t&l
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T&L I have changed my opinions on these subjects at least twice in my life ... and the switch has been the result of listening to other points of view ... and thinking ... throw in a pinch of life experience <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> ... and voila' .... my views have done a dramatic switch. Everytime I see a smoker in clinic ... I always nag .... "Have you decided to quit yet?" why do I do this? because just asking has the possibility of getting a smoker to stop .... maybe not that day ....studies show this is a reasonable approach. KEWL isn't it? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> I don't care if anyone's mind gets changed by this discussion ... but it is thought provoking .... and I personally like hearing thoughts opposite to mine .... I don't need to change anyone's mind ... I am fine with all of you "as is"
Last edited by Pepperband; 12/14/05 01:10 PM.
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Mortarman: I think we will probably have to agree to disagree since our viewpoints on this are so different. Your response below is the very reason why I DO NOT BELIEVE IN THE DEATH PENALTY: True. There is danger with man making decisions liek this. we make mistakes. We are human. This is why Christians are told to not take another Christian to court. Tha tthey are to take them to the church. Why? Because that judge downtown may not be a Christian, which means he is not trying to do God's will. A decision by a church court, made up of Christians, will (although they even make mistakes because they arent following God at the time) be true and just. You say: THE JUDGE MAY NOT BE A CHRISTIAN AND MAY NOT BE DOING GOD'S WILL.. So with our system...one person has a chance of LOSING HIS LIFE based on a judge's decision and another person DOES NOT..the judge maybe BIASED for whatever reason... Without the potential for EXECUTION...such a mistake could not be made... Thunder, asked an interesting question..whether such discussions result in a change in opinion or whatever... As a result of this discussion, I have thought about the issues over the past few days...whereas, these issues would not have been uppermost in my mind otherwise.... I decided that the DEATH PENALTY issue is more important to me..hits closer to home... Maybe it's a selfish point of view but, although there's an extremely LOW LIKELIHOOD of it happening, one of my sons could be SENTENCED TO DEATH...they WILL NOT HAVE AN ABORTION... I don't want them to be SENTENCED TO DEATH by mistake...nor would I want them EXECUTED even if they admitted to A MURDER... That's the honest truth...
I made it happen..a joyful life..filled with peace, contentment, happiness and fabulocity.
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That's the honest truth... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> love that!
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Mimi, As I said before, I absolutely respect that position! I do. I understand how you have arrived at that decision. it is logical and clearly thought out. As we have seen, we do disagree though (which is just fine!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />). I do believe that we need to do the best we can, even with the exceptions (and a person being executed by mistake really is a very far fetched anomally...although I do agree that one innocent person dying is tragic!). You know, when we send the Space Shuttle up, we really are just taking our best guess on whether the thing is going to make it or not. Even now, the Shuttle is not fully tested. It is too cost prohibitive to test EVERYTHING that could go wrong...and would take too long. So, we go "good enough," strap a half dozen guys and gals to it and light the fuze. And there have been mishaps, as we know. Did we stop the shuttle program completely? Are we never going back to space because we can never fully guarantee no one will die? No. We still go, despite the tragedy. We try to do better next time...but we still go on. If it was my but on death row, wrongly accused, I would be upset for sure. Would I change my mind about the death penalty? Absolutely not! But I would have it out for the guys and gals that were screwing up my case. Anyway, we can agree to disagree. As I said, your position on this I do respect. In His arms.
Standing in His PresenceFBS (me) (48) FWW (41) Married April 1993... 4 kids (19(B), 17(G), 14(B), 4(B)) Blessed by God more than I deserve "If Jesus is your co-pilot...you need to change seats!"Link: The Roles of Husbands and Wives
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Wow, Mortarman... I find your analogies to be Very Interesting... I don't liken going up in the Space Shuttle to an Execution... One, in my mind, is "killing someone" (albeit for punishment) and the other is going on a trip (albeit a verrry long trip)... BTW, I didn't even mention that I am a PACIFIST... Never, really thought about it that long BUT I'm not supportive of killing/participation in wars either... I hope you don't feel put down by this because you are a soldier..BUT..that may be another major reason why we are disagreeing on this.. Like the other poster pointed out, too, our discussion is probably not likely to change my POV on this concept which is so engrained in my belief system... Sorry... I truly respect, admire and value your perspectives on marriage... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />
Last edited by mimi1254; 12/14/05 02:43 PM.
I made it happen..a joyful life..filled with peace, contentment, happiness and fabulocity.
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I was too young when the Tookie trial took place, so I don't know all the facts and evidence brought in...but I do trust the courts, police, investigators had to have brought in enough evidence to find him guilty. The governor didn't take long to make a decision. He looked very assured that Tookie was guilty and deserved to die. I trust he made the right decision.
Let EVERY soul be subject to the governing authorities
(Courts, police...etc.). For there is no autority except
from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by
God. Therefore whoever resists the authority resists the
ordinance of God, and those who resisit will bring
judgement on themselves. For rulers are not a terror to
good works, but to evil. Do you want to be unafraid of the
authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from
the same. For he is God's minister to you for good. But
if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear THE SWORD
(gun, execution, judgement) in vain; for he is God's
minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices
evil. (Romans 13:1-5)
Lady
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for he does not bear THE SWORD
(gun, execution, judgement) in vain Lady: Did you include what's in parentheses? This didn't come from the BIBLE did it? If not, this is your own interpretation of this Scripture... SWORD could be an analogy... Also, it is important to note that this is PAUL speaking..not GOD or JESUS...
Last edited by mimi1254; 12/14/05 02:42 PM.
I made it happen..a joyful life..filled with peace, contentment, happiness and fabulocity.
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Mimi, How did I know you would contradict something I wrote????
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Stalin? Hitler? Saddam Hussein?
Does anyone have biblical references that support the removal from authority of "bad leaders" (who, according to this passage, are nevertheless divinely-appointed) by others acting under the authority of "good leaders"?
(Not trying to stir the pot - this passage validating all worldly authority as being from God puzzles me)
G
BS (me) - 34
FWH (him) - 35
Married 15 years
D-day - December 20, 03
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Oh, Lady...
What in the world are you talking about?
I don't have anything against you...if that's what you are saying...
I'm sorry if I have ever offended you...
Not sure what I did...
I was just giving my opinion...
I don't have anything particular against YOU....
Why in the world would I?
I made it happen..a joyful life..filled with peace, contentment, happiness and fabulocity.
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Back in the day Scripture was written THE SWORD was weapon of war, they did not have guns back then. It was also used for executing criminals...
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