Pep:

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> I'm sorry...I don't understand..not getting this..

Does this have to do with sailing...never done that....

Aye Aye, Cap'n Pep

Now which one of these ropes is tied to that big white cloth up there...

I originally thought it might have something to do with turning down the bed...maybe some Olde English idiom...

I would like to being something else into the discussion.

The laws were on the books long before these murders were committed. The death penalty was there, has been for 100's of years.

When a person knows the what the law requires, and they commit a murder, I believe they choose their own consenquences. This is pre-meditated murder, not murder in the heat or passion of some other crime.

These are not unspecting people who are caught by supprise and didn't know the law. Not people who didn't realize this was wrong. These are people who know the law, and choose to commit the crime anyway.

Perhaps this should be given some thought also.

SS

So, you're proposing that the fact that a convicted murder knows what the punishment will be, makes the punishment morally and ethically right?

That's an interesting perspective.

It is the same reason that throughout the Bible, the word "love" is used. But depending on which word the Bible used for love in the original language, it could be a slightly different meaning. (Dont ding me on my spelling, please) "Agape" is God's kind of love, sacrificial. "Feleo" is a friend, I like you, kind of love. In the English version, they all say "love." But depending on which word in the original language was used, it may mean a whole different deal. I can feleo my wife all by myself. but, God demands that I agape her...and I only can do that with Jesus. But, in the Scriptures, English version...it says I am to LOVE my wife like Christ loves the church. Do you see what I am saying. Anyone that does translations would be able to tell you that not everything comes thru exactly in the translation. That is why it is important to study the original text!!


I can quote any of them...I just chose those two. And no, that interpretation isnt wrong...it is inexact. Murder is a form of killing. It is killing with an evil intent. So, to say thou shalt not kill is true, but it isnt exact. Because the original writing stated that the type of killing it was talking about was murder. Not wrong, just not complete in the translation. There many other places in the English translations where the terms did not make it thru the translation process. That is why it is VERY important to study the Hebrew and greek to understand what those words REALLY mean!


No rationalization going on. If I could write the Hebrew text here, then I would be exact. But, can you read and understand Hebrew? Neither can I. I must get it translated.


Oh no, it is written so it is VERY clear, especially to believers. To unbelievers, it is unclear in many ways. But to the believer, the Holy Spirit helps to make it very clear. Like I said, if you knew Greek and Hebrew, then this issue would not be an issue for you. Unfortunately, we are limited by the English language.


That's why you have pastors and teachers that DO read and understand Greek and Hebrew. That is why I use translation tools and read texts about what the translations mean. I dont know a lick of Hebrew. But that doesnt mean I cant find out what a passage meant in its original text.

Hope that helped!

In His arms.

There are translations that do say this. Why was it translated this way? Who knows. Most of these translations were done hundreds of years ago, and the newer ones just followed suit. Mimi, go find out the meaning of the original text for Thou Shalt Not kill. Look it up. You will find this out.

You should also know, especially as a Christian, that God does not make one law for us, and another for Himself. That would make Him completely unholy and unjust. And unloving.

And we KNOW that God has killed people. But what we also know is that God has never murdered anyone.

Anyway, I will see if I can pull up a link or two that will help you with this. As a Christian, you should know that the Bible was written in two languages. The Old Testament in Hebrew and the New Testament in Greek. In order to fully knowthe meaning of the text in our Bible, we need to refer back to the original meaning in the original text.

Go to a Bible-teaching Christian church (surprise...not all of them are!!) and talk to the pastor. He can help you with this.

In His arms.

I believe capital punishment is right because God says it is. I don't believe anyone or anything else has the right to make that judgement.

Others don't agree -

I pointed this out because some blame the system.

I put the blame where I think it belongs - with the criminal. With the one that broke the law knowing full what the punishment would be.

Paul Harvey once did a radio show on capital puinishment.

He said that some say that it is unfair, and others think it may be just, but that the methods are harsh. He said in his radio show that perhaps it would be most just to use the same method that was used in the commission of the crime. How could a murder complain (he said) if the murderer was put to death in the same manner that he killed his victim. How can a murderer (one who took an inocent life) complain if his own life is taken in return? How can he or she think it unfair?

I think it's more of a crime to let the murderer live, than it is to sentance them to death. I think it a travesty of justice to take a murderer and give them an air conditoned, heated home with free food, and reading materials, and health care for life. I think it a moral injustice to the law abiding citizens of the country that convicted murderers escape justice in that manner if the law has determined them to be guilty of first degree murder.

SS

MM:

We may need to stop talking about this..

Both of us are merely mortals...

What you say here troubles me..that does not mean that I am "outraged" or "upset" (sensitized because of my experience with another poster):

You said:

"it is written so it is VERY clear to believers..to unbelievers, it is unclear in many ways. But to the believer, the Holy Spirit makes it very clear"...


You see the Holy Spirit has me convinced that any type of killing is wrong...

The Spirit tells me that VENGEANCE IS HIS...

So does that mean that you think that the HOLY SPIRIT is speaking to you moreso than me..

And that it is CLEARER to you than it is TO ME...

I hope not...

Please explain...

Also, BTW, I went to a BIBLE-TEACHING CHRISTIAN CHURCH, MM...

I respect my former pastor's knowledge.. he had a DOCTORATE in DIVINITY...

That was not my problem with the church...

I don't recall him ever speaking of being supportive of the death penalty..but maybe he is..I doubt it..

He has LIBERAL views and does INTERPRET the BIBLE much differently than you do...

I don't think we will agree on this as we said yesterday...

I don't own guns..no one in my family has owned guns..as I know of...none of my family has been in the military...I'm not real familiar with that philosophy..

I was just wondering how you would answer those particular questions..

Thanks.. I will continue to ponder this...



<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

I know from the knowledge of the English language that ceasefire means to stop firing. Someone that has never been trained would understand the meaning of that command.

I did not make your point, because I am not being stuck on the word interpretation. What I am discussing is that the meaning of most of what is written is very clear. That most of it, even to atheists, can be determined. There isnt much room for coming up with a different meaning. At least not and still be intellectually honest (anyone can make things up).


Again there are parts of the Bible that do require this. And I did mention that. What I was saying originally is that Jesus was very careful to say when He was being literal and when He was talking in parables (trying to tell a story). That was the original part of my posting.

[/quote]

We are having this discussion because you think I am arguing against what you are saying. I am not. I have even posted to Mimi about how one must know the original meaning in the original language many times to understand some passages.

What I have been saying is that the Bible is not a puzzle to be decifered. It isnt a secret message. There are things in there that are absolute, and mean what they say. Those things arent one way for one person, and another way for others.

Other parts of Scripture, there are things that can be accepted or rejected (Like the rules on eating seafood in Leviticus).

Like I said, I am NOT disagreeign with you on interpreting the Bible, i nthe sense that yo uare trying to find out the meaning. What I am saying that the true meaning is knowable and is very, very clear once a person (Christian) "interprets" it.

In His arms.

Perfectly stated! They CHOSE to be executed.

In His arms.

The word in the original - given from G-d to Moshe and the Israelites, transliterated (meaning not in the Hebrew alefbet, but written how it is pronounced in English) r'tzach - meaning unauthorized homicide, perhaps one that called forth blood vengeance. The word came to be associated with killing out of hatred and malice.

Not the same as kill, which is harag. And of course, the Hebrew was translated into Greek, which was then translated into English.

Like the movie: Lost in translation.

No. Not exactly. Sometimes, I do not hear the Holy Spirit, or hear Him correctly. Sometimes, He speaks to me thru fellow believers. Sometimes, what I am hearing isnt coming from the Holy Spirit, even though it sounds like it...sometimes it is coming from Satan. That is why we are to search the Scriptures AND rely on the Holy Spirit. If that voice is telling me something that is contrary to what the Scriptures say, then it is NOT the Holy Spirit.

What I am saying on this, as is evidenced about you not knowing about the original meaning of Thou Shalt Not kill, is that you may not be hearing the Hoily Spirit correctly in this case. I know it has happened for me on many occasions (and I am sure it will happen many more). What I am saying is that the Scriptures say that Thou Shalt Not Murder. They say it. It does not matter why or how they were written in English. It only matters that it says Thou Shalt Not Murder.

Again, the Holy Spirit is not going to EVER tell you to do something opposite of what God would do. He isnt going to tell you not to kill someone, and then he kills thousands. He is NEVER going to do that. That should tell you something right there about what you are hearing on this. This voice is telling you that killing is wrong, but God has killed. So that makes Him wrong. That cannot be. So, you should be saying to yourself "Hey, this cannot be right. Either I am misinterpreting what the Holy Spirit is saying OR it is nto the Holy Spirit talking." And then go research and study and pray on it. God will lead you to the right answer.

Again, I am not the know it all!! I have had many come alongside me and say "Mortarman, what you are saying is not Scriptural." And I thought I was on Biblical footing. So I went and read and prayed...and guess what? I was wrong! And the Holy Spirit has sent that person to me in order to help guide me to the truth.


No problem, Mimi. Look, ultimately if both of us are saved, then we will meet in Heaven and hang out together forever!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> All of the rest really wont mean much then, will it.

As I said, I look for the original meaning of the text. If my pastor would walk up tomorrow and say "Thou shalt not steal" doesnt mean you cant take something from someone, that there are exceptions...I would go to him and ask him to show me...in the original text and meaning...where that is written.

Look, any one passage in the Bible can be taken out of context. When a meaning is interpreted, it has to be done so with the entire Bible in account also. What do I mean?

Well, the first example I would use is the one I already gave. If God did say "Thou Shalt not Kill," then He and many of the people underneath Him to include David, Moses, etc are guilty of breaking the Commandment. Okay, so mortal men were guilty of breaking it...so what? But how i nthe world could a Holy God break that Commandment? If He says that killing is evil and unholy and unjust, then how can he be Holy and good and just if he kills? And He certainly has killed and has ordered men to kill other men. You see, Thou shalt not kill doesnt work i nthe context of the rest of the Bible and what we know about God. Now...Thou Shalt Not Murder? That is VERY consistent with God's nature. It is very consistent with the Commandments and the other parts of Scripture.

You see, you have to know all of the Bible, not just parts of it.

Let me ask you a question? If I was on top of you, in your home, and I was choking you...and you are about to die...and you reach over and grab a knife and kill me...have you broken the Commandment? Have you committed evil?

I ask this because murder cannot be equated morally or Biblically with self-defense...although both are "killing."

In His arms.

Thank you penalty!! I was just out looking for this!

In His arms.

You're very welcome.

This makes me smile..because we definitely are in agreement on this....

I still say YOU are HUMAN and YOU are speaking about YOUR OWN INTERPRETATION of the scriptures...

It sounds like you are saying that if I don't agree with you that I am not listening to the Spirit..
that I might be listening to SATAN....

I do believe that I can find BIBLICAL SCHOLARS who may interpret this differently, MM....

You said:



I believe, as mortals, we cannot possibly comprehend OUR AWESOME GOD or compare ourselves to him...

We cannot compare OUR KILLING to his...or try to comprehend WHY he has done something...

It's like my son saying, You did it so I can do it, too...

HE IS IN CONTROL..IN POWER..HE CAN DO WHATEVER HE WANTS WITHOUT US HAVING TO UNDERSTAND IT..AND BECAUSE HE IS SUCH AN AWESOME GOD..HE CANNOT BE UNDERSTOOD BY LITTLE OLD ME..

That's my feeling on it...



I guess not....

I guess what I am basically saying is that I think the death penalty is LIKE MURDER..there has been a decision made to kill someone..

It is not an act of self-defense...

It is doing the EXACT SAME THING TO THE PERSON..THAT THEY DID..It seems to me like it is almost saying that what they did is OK..

I'm not saying that the person shouldn't be punished..I agree with LIFE IN PRISON WITHOUT PAROLE...

I don't believe in putting a person to death..I just don't right now...

I don't believe, though, that this means that my viewpoint IS NOT GUIDED BY THE HOLY SPIRIT....

I know you mean well but I just don't feel like it's OK for you to say that ...

Sorry...

I believe your logic is a bit faulty.

God is able to act in any manner He chooses. Because He is PERFECT, He is able to JUDGE perfectly. His ACTIONS are the very definition of JUST and RIGHT because He is PERFECT.

MM, You know very well that there is a God, and WE are not Him. We, being fallible human beings are not capable of acting with the same righteousnous and justice that God is. To state such places Man on the same level as God.

GOD IS NOT SUBJECT TO THE SAME REGULATIONS HE HAS ESTABLISHED FOR OUR BENEFIT. HE CAN DO WHATEVER HE CHOOSES!

For this reason, and forgive me for this but I use it as an illustation, God is not guilty of fornication with Mary (They were not formally married in Jewish society). God is not guilty of torturing Job in a cruel and inhumane way. God is not guilty of destroying a planet full of innocent children by flooding it.

GOD cannot be impugned by our own attempts to subject him to the guidance established for US.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />


And you might be. As I have said, I have held positions before to find out later that I wasnt listening to the Holy Spirit...even though I BELIEVED that I was.


Not compare, certainly. But we can know Him. He has revealed Himself to us. Thus, we do know His nature. he is awesome, powerful, holy and just. Which means God would never, ever, ever murder! But He has and will kill. And if He says killing is evil, then that makes Him evil. There is no way around that. He cannot make exceptions for Himself, because that would make Him unjust...which would make Him evil. And you and I know that our God is not those things!!


We can comprehend why. Absolutely. And as I said, if God says KILLING is wrong...then it is wrong...even for Him.


No, it is more like me saying "Son, it is wrong to do heroin. Dont you ever do it..." as I sit there and heat up the spoon with the heroin in it and inject it into myself. It is hypocritical. And God is never a hypocrite!


We cannot understand him FULLY...but we do know His nature. As I said, God cannot be holy and shove sin under the rug. Someone has to be punished. If God could make exceptions to the rules, then there would have been no need for His son to suffer and die. Did you know that? His Son did what He did because God had to follow His own rules. Someone had to pay! So, he took it on Himself.

Did you know that even though He is all-powerful, there are things that God CANNOT do? God cannot sin! He cant. He cant do it. He defined what sin is. He told us what it is. And He cannot sin. As powerful as he is, there are things that He cannot do. Here's another...God cannot be unjust. He has to judge, He has to be fair. Another? He cannot be unloving. God said that He is love. he didnt say He loves...He said He IS love. He cant BE love and at the same time, be unloving.


Again, as your brother in Christ, I caution you on your feelings. The Bible even says that the heart...read feelings...are wicked. What it means is that you should never trust your heart. Trust your head. Trust the facts. As someone who is saved, you KNOW God. You know Him personally. You KNOW what He is like. And as I have shown you this, you should be able to see that "Yes, I know that He is holy and just. I know that He cannot do evil." And since evil has been defined by God in the Bible, then we know that He is NOT capable of doing evil...no matter how powerful He is.


Okay. So now you have made an exception. Now the Bible doesnt say Thou Shalt not Kill...it now says Thou Shalt not Kill, Unless you do so in self-defense.

Now, what is the definition of murder or homicide? "the crime of unlawfully killing a person especially with malice aforethought." That is the definition. Now how is the State putting a guilty person to death fit into that definition? The yare lawfully putting a person to death (lawfully both by state law and Biblically) and they are not doing this with malice (definition of malice: "intent to commit an unlawful act or cause harm without legal justification or excuse")

It cannot be murder, Mimi. Sure, the law in Germany allowed Hitler to put Jews to death. But it was against God's law, because those were innocent people that were put to death. That was murder by the state.


And as I said, I respect your decision. I understand that you do not believe this is right. I do.


Hey, dont be sorry. Like I said, I could be wrong. What I ask of you Mimi though is that anytime you want to know Scripture, then back it up with Scripture.

You see, God is knowable. He really is. And He is always, always, always consistent. We may not be able to contemplate Him fully, but we can know Him. We can know His nature.

I knwo you can find scholars that will say all sorts of things. We all can. That really doesnt matter! You can know God. I can know Him. We do not need an intermediary. All we really need is Scripture and the Holy Spirit.

Mimi, I really am not being mean here or questioning you as a Christian. Please do not take it this way. I know there have been plenty of times others have said things to me i nthis way, and I thought that I was right. I thought "How dare they?" But they were able to show me in Scripture where what I believed was not Scriptural.

All killing is not evil, otherwise God would not kill. He cant make exceptions for Himself, otherwise that would make Him not awesome, not Holy. It would make Him evil. He has set the standard and lives the standard. Of course, without Jesus, we cannot meet that standard on our own. But He can. He has and He will.

All of those standards that He has set, He has met. Jesus came to not do away with the Law, but to fulfill it. Because no one here could.

I know that you believe what you are saying and that is fine. This wont keep either one of us from Heaven (and I do look forward with hanging out with you there!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />). But Scripture says what it says.

Let me take it into a non-religious arena. The Constitution. Many today believe we have a Living Document. And they are correct...we treat it as a living document (which means we change the meanign of the test to fit the times). But that was not intended by the Framers of the Consitution. They expressly stated that we SHOULD NOT interpret in light of today, but in light of what they authors meant. That a Constitution that is Living, is no constitution at all! it is just a bunch of words that can be changed at a moments notice.

Now, can we fine "scholars" out there that say that the 2nd Amendment doesnt mean we can have firearms? Sure. Would they be correct? No. Not by what the Framers said. They wrote the 2nd Amendment. They know what they meant when they wrote it. They published the Federalist Papers and other documents to help guide us to understand what they meant.

I dont want to get into a political debate here...but jsut wanted to show you that you can take any document and anyone can skew it for their own purposes.

I try not to let my interpretation come into this, unless I say "this is what I believe." When I say that, then I am interpreting. But in the case of Thou Shalt not Murder, I dont need to say "I believe" because I know that what was written originally stated that it is Thou Shalt not Murder. Or more correctly, what penalty wrote above.

That is a fact. I dont need to interpret it. I dont need the Holy Spirit to help me on that one. It stated that Thou Shalt Not "r'tzach." That was what was written. That was what God intended.

So again, I dont want to get lost in this and have you angry at me. Because this issue is not central to our salvation. But in this discussion, I have proven that what was originally written was Murder. You have said that you believe it is kill. And belief is fine. But be careful that your beliefs line up with the facts also. I have been guilty in the past of defending my beliefs when they werent supported by facts. It didnt feel good when I found out what the truth is.

Again, I want to say one more time that I am not being the truth police!! I am not banging on you Mimi. But, if you can show me that Scripture says that killing is not allowed, then you would be correct.

Sorry for the contentiousness of my tone. I really dont mean to be.

In His arms.

I used to believe in capital punishment because I believed that some people deserve to die for the horrible crimes they commit. I live in Texas so death sentences being carried out is at least a monthly reality here. It is on the news, in the paper, on the radio everytime it happens.

Prisoners may get free health care, 3 meals a day, etc. etc. but I cannot imagine giving up my freedom. That alone keeps me following the letter of the law. If you do serve time and get out, you are not the same person and sometimes you never will be. People get institutionalized, they can't live on the outside anymore. No matter how much I struggle with my mortgage, car payments, having a full-time job, whatever, I would choose this life anytime over living in prison.

If you can't do the time then don't do the crime. Having said all that, there are innocent people in prison doing time for a crime they didn't commit. There are people on death row that are innocent too.

This is the one of the problems I have with capital punishment, putting to death an innocent person. Staying in prison for your entire natural life, is maybe worse punishment than getting a lethal injection and it's over with, you're done.

Interesting topic. I've enjoyed reading everyone's point of view on this.

This is where your logic fails, Low Orbit. If God says that stealing is evil...then He is incapable of stealing. Because stealing would mean that He is unholy. I am NOT talking about God's power. I am talking about His holiness. He cannot sin and be holy. He has told us what sin is. he has defined it. If He makes the rules for us, but does as He pleases...then that would make Him a hypocrite. And again, that would make Him unholy.

God does not have the power to be unholy!! it is against who He is.

F
Huh? Of course He isnt guilty of fornication with Mary. Last I heard, I never saw anywhere that God had sex with Mary. You need a better example.


They were NOT innocent! Read the etxt surrounding the flood. The whole society was guilty. God already saw the future of those children. They were never ever going to follow him or leave their life of sin. The whole society had become debased. Again, God killed the guilty! That is not murder!

And by the way, God did not torture Job. Satan did!


I am not impugning him. He is impugned when we say that He is a hypocrite and can do as He pleases. Sure, any other god could do that. But not the God of the Bible. he defined who He is. He defined what sin is. He said He is holy, and just, and love. He is not powerful enough to overrule Himself!! Otherwise, He would destroy who He says He is!! He would cease to exist!

In His arms.