Mr. Wondering made this point which I also made earlier, speaking to how it is ULTIMATELY AN INDIVIDUAL who enacts the death penalty...

MM, what is your response to this...

Thanks Mimi,

Rereading my post I see where MM made the leap to the military when I used the term "duty" and "orders". I should have called it performing their "job" instead of "orders" and "duty". I apologize.

Mr. W

by the way...replace "shot the gun" with "shoot the gun"...darn spell check...oh, that's right there is no spellcheck on this forum, rats.

Great point, Mr. Wondering.

I have to say that although some comments in the thread bothered me, Im thankful that it started a dialogue in my own home with my family.

I do want to comment with a paragraph from a book I own.

"Justice provides for capital punishment. There are a number of crimes in the Bible which demand the extreme penalty. In Talmudic law, however, it becomes virtually impossible to condemn any man to death. Circumstantial evidence is not accepted, nor hearsay evidence, nor even confession. The offender had to have been warned befrore commission of the act what his punishment would be. Two witnesses had to see the actual commission. They underwent searching examination by a collegium of judges bent on saving the life of the accused. A sanhedrin (court of law) which condemned one man to death in seventy years was called bloodthirsty. Rabbi Akiba and Rabbi Tarfon said, 'If we had been in the sanhedrin none would ever have been put to death.'"
"The Jewish Way of Life" Abraham J. Karp pg 105

I'm thankful for this thread because it gives me pause for my supporting the death penalty *as it stands now*.

I've actually enjoyed going back to my books, it has been awhile since I had read some of them.

This is not directed at MM but all proponets of the death penalty. We the people do have the power and the "right" as MM stated to put a stop to capital punishment. Capital Punishment is not my cause and I really do not feel super strongly either way on the issue. I plan on moving to Georgia and Georgia's capital punishment laws are not going to make me pause for a second about moving there(though they definitely could use a few more democrats). <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Imagane this...If the US (or just your state) had a vote on the issue and it came down to 175 million for Capital Punishment and 175 million against and YOUR vote was to be the deciding vote...how would you vote? It is so casual to sit back and consider how OUR government does things without OUR involvement but if you imagine it coming down to your vote how do think you'd respond?

Throw in that not only does your vote decide but you get to be the one to carry out the executions should you decide to vote that way.

Maybe even throw in that your vote is not a secret ballot but one for all the world to see.

How you would vote then is truly your opinion on the matter.

BTW, I respect your opinion either way just know that I would vote against capital punishment...that is all.

Mr. Wondering

edited to add: As an citizen I also reserve the right to change my mind. I have no idea how I would feel if my family or loved one's were victimized by some criminal. I sympathize greatly with the victims family but just feel the execution of the criminal responsible for their loss offers nothing to them. In fact, it may even prolong their injury as they endure the 5, 10, 15 year battle to see and insure that the execution is carried out. In Michigan, without the death penalty, there is more finality to the sentencing and perhaps healing can begin much sooner. Who knows.

1st off, I agree w/MM that there are some things worse than death. Biblically the price a murderer pays for taking a life is death (his/her own). Balances the spiritual/moral sides of the scale of justice. Does it balance the legal side? Well that appears to vary from state to state and country to country. Therefore the same person and circumstances could commit the same murder and get different virdicts and sentences all over this country and world. Victims and their families w/b impacted differently as a result.

So while people are willing to spend other people's $$ to warehouse convicted criminals for life..... it makes one just wonder.... why? To preserve the life for someone to 'rot in jail'? Is even humane?

I happen to know of a case (personal friend of the friend of this person), who commited several murders in his youth. He was a troubled young adult and did not get remorse for several years. Lots of anger..... while serving his death sentence, he met several people who helped him turn his life around. His remaining (about 3 years or so) he spend improving his life. In turn he helped others do the same. Still his sentence was carried out. The point is that he knew all along his sentence w/b carried out. He still improved his life and stated that the sentence of death was deserving for what he did to the victims and their families. In fact he knew he must die to repay his debt. The cost of life is great the price to pay is also great. He was and is a good man, now......the point is that due to his belief his reward is to have a good life, a better life, in a perfect place.

So to clear one's debt, to have a good, better life in a perfect place...... why would one want to 'rot in jail' and still have to die anyway? Along with the added burden of the costs. It appears to be a humilating thing to do to even the worst of human beings.

BTW, I respect the Bible's view on death. It is because of the sanctity of life that the death penalty in Bibical times were given.

The Bible says: thou shalt not kill.....yes it does but when that does happen, that commandment applies B4 the crime is committed....'thou shalt not' it doesn't say thou did not. Yet the principal of the 'wages sin pays is death'.....is now applicable. Is that a discrepancy? No. One needs to get the entire Bible's perspective. There's a lot more I could say but I think you all get my point.

The point of restitution has not be really addressed here. So life sentences benefit who? Where is the benefit to the victims and their families? For those who say taking a life to pay for taking a life isn't restitution probably havent' been there. I know I haven't but I have seen a lot of live's taken and talked with both victims and some who have commited crimes. In most cases restitution has the most beenfit whereas spending $$ on jail time, does not. That's reality.

Debating is fine but reality is what we have to deal with. I find it best to align my thinking to work with reality. Supposition has it's place but in the end, if it just doesn't make sense.....it ain't worth it.

JMHO,
L.

The same thing I was trying to say to Mr. W. that it is someone's son, daughter, father, etc that is called on to head into that swamp and stick a knife in the guys back and hold his head under water until the guy stops breathing. It is a horrific thing we ask that guy to do. And he volunteers to do it, just as that guy or gal at the prison volunteers to do it. No one is forced to pull the switch, just like no one in the U.S. is forced to join the military. Shoot, that soldier that ran into the swamp and did that wasnt even forced to do that. He could have just let that guy go, or waited for back-up. But instead, he did an incredbily violent thing to a fellow human being...and did so willingly. Same thing goes for those prison guards.

It is the guards duty to pull the switch in the execution. It is the soldier's duty to "execute" enemies of our nation. They are very much similar, especially in the case of what Mr. W was talking about in regards to how a civilized nation can execute someone. Simple. The same nation that can execute a cold-blooded murderer is the same civilized nation that can drop 500lbs bombs on hundreds of people, killing and maiming them.

This world is a nasty place to be. Until Jesus comes back, the Bible says that it isnt going to get any better. Mr W...you talked about sitting at the table with my kids and talking about somethign nice, instead of tookie. Sure, that would be nice. But I would be a very poor father if I did not discuss the days events, which would include the nasty things of life. And there will ALWAYS be the nasty things of life until Jesus returns. There isnt much we can do about that, except to protect ourselves, educate ourselves...and exact justice and punishment when needed.

Murder will continue. Wars will continue. No matter how much we want to change that, we cannot. We do not have the power to stop this. Jesus does, though. And He said He will when He returns.

In His arms.

I am not confusing duty and job. Not at all. My using the military was to show that a civilized nation requires some of its members to do some barbaric activities. So, killing a terrorist is really no different than killing a murderer that has been sentenced to death.

In His arms.

But we do have the power to stop capital punishment and we do have the power to elect government representatives that are not war mongering baffoons (JMO).

By your statement you imply that you wish things could be different but they won't until Jesus returns. I accept that and will educate my daughter accordingly. That is life. But we do have the power afforded us by our constitution to change what we have the power to change and the power by God to accept those things which we can not change. Capital Punishment is one of those things that unfortunately most Americans seemingly just "accept"...I merely encourage all to form an opinion...either way.

Mr. Wondering

p.s.-I'll be gone the rest of the day celebrating Christmas with my side of the family...later.

And how are these soldiers emotionally after they "execute" their brothers? I know when my dad came back from his two year stint in Nam, he was NOT okay...not ever again.

And I have a good friend at work who was a death row guard for about four years. He can barely speak of those years, and he is now against the death penalty.

How can you use the term "civilized nation" in the same sentence as bomb dropping and execution?

There is nothing civilized or holy about it. And to say there is nothing at all we can do until Jesus comes back and fixes it for us just sounds like such a cop-out.

What about a Dept of Peace?

When will we start to except that it is our responsibility to change this world, one person, one child, one minute at a time...and starting with our own nation.

Weaver, very well said.

It is sad.My WH's cousin was in Iraq too and he came back a different person.And it was not good.He also has a wife and children.His father is also in the military and is very concerned.

When does it end? I would like to think,as I do here,that we could all work out our problems/issues without such trauma.With our minds.

O

I dont accept that. Most Americans dont accept capital punishment, they endorse it. If they didnt want it, it would not be there. Now, parts of this nation have a majority of people that do not want capital punishment...and those areas dont have capital punishment. I live in Virginia...we have capital punishment, and overwhelmingly, Virginians support capital punishment. We expect that since capital punishment is Consitutional, the Virginia will be left alone to do as the people of Virginia deem best.

On the electing governments to change things, I agree that the people have the power to do so. but I sincerely doubt in my lifetime that I will see capital punishment leave the legal landscape, especially i nstates such as Florida, Virginia and Texas. I also understand that we all must be careful to elect officials that do not just head off to war hapazardly, as it is we soldiers that must bear the brunt of that. I will say that it has been quite a long time since we have had president and/or Congress that has been "war mongering buffoons." I thank God we do not have one right now, as the world is dangerous enough as it is without having to question our Commander in Chief. Especially in our war on terror. Left to continue the path the President has started, our military has made great in roads in destroying these people. As long as we dont get side tracked by people like Cindy Sheehan who do not speak for soldiers, and who doesnt understand how to win a war and/or protect a nation, then we WILL win this war. God willing!!


Have a good time!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Well, I have lived through the Korean War, Vietnam, Desert Storm and the latest in Afghanistan and Iraq.

You are all probably too young to remember that song that starts "Let there be peace on earth, and let it begin with me".

The folks here know that even when we love someone and they are our own family, things go wrong. It is just our lot - and it is sad.

No...we are never the same again. How can we be?


I have no doubt. As I have said, these types of duty definitely change you. And it really takes a special breed of man or woman to do these jobs. But, unfortunately, they must be done. We take on that sacrifice, on those burdens because we know what the alternative is. Better some terrorist shooting at me in Kabul, then terrorists taking another plane and killing more innocent Americans.


You CANNOT have a civilized nation without dropping 500lbs bombs sometimes, without defending yourself, without having men and women on the fences, keeping the enemies out. You cannot do your Christmas shopping, and go to church tomorrow...without the soldier. Without the soldier to protect and defend the Constitution and all the people the Constitution belongs to, then that piece of paper is worthless.


No, no. I didnt say that there is NOTHING we can do about it. I am saying that the threat will always be there...until He returns. That IS Biblical! He said this will continue until He returns. The things we can do is to be loving, and lead the world in the ideals of freedom and living the lives outlined in the Declaration of Independence (life, liberty and pursuit of happiness). If I was copping out, I would just give up. No, instead I fight and others fight for what is right. We fight for peace! I know that may sound like an oxymoron, but it is not.

We have had enemies throughout our history. And throughout our history, we have met those enemies head on and defeat them. That is why we continue, that is why this nation has survived.


Wow! Are you serious? Look, I'll go for a Dept of peace (whatever it is supposed to do) if you can honestly say that we can get ever enemy we have on the planet to not try to kill or invade us or our friends. Can you guarantee that? I know you cant. why? Because God has siad it is not possible without Jesus and wont happen until Jesus gets back. Have you been to Iraq, or Afghanistan or Bosnia? Have you met or talked to our enemies, these terrorists? If you have, then you wouldnt be making such a statement. These people understand one thing...power! When they hear things like "cant we all just get along," all they see is weakness.

I will say it again...no one wants peace more than the soldier. Because it is the soldier that must be away from his family for months on end, who must go thru all matters of he!! and who might be maimed or killed. We know better than anyone what our freedom costs. Freedom is NOT free!


We do try to do that. Do you see the soldiers over there vaccinating the Iraqi children, building schools, providing protection so that the Iraqis can vote? Do you think ANY of that is possible without the soldier? Maybe our Secretary of Peace could have gone to Saddam and reasoned with him. Maybe Saddam would have said "Oh, I have been a murderous thug...but you make a great case. I will stop threatening my neighbors, stop making WMDs, stop killing my own people, and i will allow free elections...all because you people have been so very nice to me and shown me love." Does any person with any sense of reality think that would have been even REMOTELY possible.

Sure, there are things we can do and have done. And we will continue to work hard in the fight against evil. But Weaver, neither you nor me nor any man can outlaw Satan. and he is much more powerful than all of man put together. He has been given dominion over the earth. Only Jesus can and will defeat him. But Jesus will do it in His time, not ours.

I know you want peace. I do too. But it helps no one to pursue ideas that have no basis in reality and no chance of success. Instead, we need to concenteate on what works and what we can do.

I have walked the streets of Bosnia. My brother just got back from Afghanistan. Do you know what the average citizen in those countries thinks of the American soldier? They love us! They love the protection we provide. They love the fact that we have and continue to weed out the bad guys, giving their nations and their children a chance finally to build what we enjoy here in the States. We are bringing peace, Weaver!! Look at Europe. Where is the Soviet threat of destroying europe? Where are the Nazis, of the fascists? Why isnt the emperor of Japan not controlling fast stretches of China, and even Hawaii? How about South Korea (have you seen the photo from the satellite of korea at night...the southern half all lit up and the northern barely able to see even the capital?)?

Weaver, we want the same things. Unfortunately, just wishing peace does not make the wolves go away. God has at many times in history ordered war, ordered destruction from His people. And He is a God of love.

You are going to have to do better than wishing for something that isnt possible.There are ways to help make things more peaceful. A nation without soldiers isnt one of them.

In His arms.

I do too, October!! I pray everyday for Jesus to return and this mess to end. He will one day. As I said above, it would be nice to work out the issues without hate, malice, etc...but Satan wont allow that. And the only way to fight Satan is with Jesus. Unfortunately, most of the planet will reject Jesus. As a matter of fact, almost ALL of the planet will reject Jesus. Now how in th world is mankind going to defeat Satan and evil on his own, when Satan is more powerful than all of man put together? Shoot, we cant even get Satan out of our marriages, from destroying our marriages. I say the day we can have every marriage run without the problems, without adultery...then we might have a start at this peace you all speak of.

Anyone want to hold their breath until that happens? Again, I do wish for that kind of peace also. But in this life, on this planet. I know that isnt possible. My peace will come when I arrive in heaven. Until then, we are at war with Satan and his minions.

In His arms.

Thanks for the great start Grandpa Adam and Grandma Eve. Thanks for screwing it up for all of us!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

really, we could all end evil today if we would just obey God's laws and follow Jesus perfectly. Anyone wanna guess how many people have ever done that? How about zero!! Anyone wanna guess what the odds are for just one person to fully follow God's laws and follow Jesus perfectly? How about zero percent!!

Let's get real here folks, so we can concentrate on what we CAN do!

In His arms.

I agree. Feels like this thread started out in one spot and moved to another. Seems like we can't even agree on just punishment even when the criminal is guilty. How sad is that?

Guess the next question c/b, can man really rule himself?!?!?!? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

L.

MM, to answer your question on what a Dept of Peace is supposed to do, both domestically and abroad, there is already a campaign for one, and you can read about it here -

www.thepeacealliance.org

Weaver - I'm going to ask for your forgiveness in advance because I am fairly certain that at least some of what I will say in response to your post may offend or hurt you, and that is NOT my intention. My intention is to address your opinions and the subsequent actions, in a similar way that I might address a WS trying to justify what, in my humble opinion, was incorrect and harmful opinions and actions even though they might think it's "okay" for them and that others should embrace their justifications and act in a similar fashion themselves.

[color:"blue"]And how are these soldiers emotionally after they "execute" their brothers? I know when my dad came back from his two year stint in Nam, he was NOT okay...not ever again.[/color]

First, NO soldier in battle is "Executing" anyone. They are defending their lives from someone who WANTS TO, AND IS TRYING TO, kill them or is trying to impose "evil" upon the rest of the world. "Executions" happen after a trial, military or civilian, for crimes that rise to the level of removing the person from existence for both punishment for what they DID and to protect the people from any furture likelihood that THAT person will harm again.

To call what soldiers do in defending us and our nation "executions" is not only WRONG, it is disrespectful and WRONG. I suppose the next step in that thinking is that Police Officers who have to use deadly force in apprehending "very bad people" and to protect the populace are "executing" people and therefore should NOT be allowed to use deadly force...ever. Why NOT ban all guns and only allow those who have NO respect for law or the "rights of others" to have guns with which to enforce THEIR concept of "what is right for THEM and to heck with everyone else's concept of 'right and wrong'."

Standing up against evil, realizing that no matter what you might "like" there ARE people who WILL NOT live in peace (just check out the latest rantings of the President of Iran regarding Israel as an example), having to "Fight for what you believe in," etc., DOES change people.

I would challenge anyone who has gone through the "evil" of infidelity to say that they have not been "changed." Recognizing that "Shangi La" does NOT yet exist in this world IS life changing for a lot of people. Hypothetically, it WOULD be great if there was "Peace on Earth, Good Will to All Mankind," but that is NOT going to happen until God remakes the world.


[color:"blue"]And I have a good friend at work who was a death row guard for about four years. He can barely speak of those years, and he is now against the death penalty.[/color]

I'm not going to argue FOR the death penalty simply because I want "vengeance" and "punishment." The taking of a life is NOT something to be viewed lightly. But neither is the crime that PUT that condemned person there. The STATE, just as in the case of the military, puts people in positions that will likely cause change in them in order to "protect and defend" the nation as a whole. Suffice it to say that we walk a "fine line" with guards who work Death Row. We don't want heartless, insensitive, perhaps even sadistic, guards. We want people who DO care and who do "Feel." There is NO doubt in my mind that they "get to know" some of the prisoners over the YEARS that it takes to get through all the legal process and that they can begin to "identify" instead of "empathisize" with the prisoner. They don't see the horror of crime, they see the person who can't do harm to someone else while they are on death row.

So my heart goes out to those who DO the hard things so that WE don't have to do it, whether they be Prison Guards, Police Officers, or Members of our Military.

My eldest son is a Police Officer. I "worry" about what could happen to him while I also appreciate what he is doing for those of us who DO want to live in "peace" from those who do NOT want to, and who IMPOSE their will on us in a "shut up and take it" attitude. IF that "thin blue line" did not exist, a "Peace Department" would never stand because those opposed to peace would destroy it at the first opportunity....with impunity.


[color:"blue"]How can you use the term "civilized nation" in the same sentence as bomb dropping and execution?[/color]

Very easily. It is the NATION that is "civilized" with comparison to other "nations" in how they treat their own people and the peoples of other nations. To be "uncivilized" would be, imho, to NOT "preserve, protect, and defend the Constitution of the United States and the people of this great nation from ALL enemies, both foreign and domestic."

AT the best, to NOT protect our civilization would be FATAL conflict avoidance simply because the individual didn't have a "taste" for force or for "getting THEIR hands dirty."

That's precisely what Neville Chamberlain tried. Care to review how effective his "head in the sand" approach to dealing with evil was and what the "longer term" cost was for such cowardace?


[color:"blue"]There is nothing civilized or holy about it. And to say there is nothing at all we can do until Jesus comes back and fixes it for us just sounds like such a cop-out.

What about a Dept of Peace?[/color]

"WAR is He!L" as the saying goes. So is the depravity of man. So is SIN. When you can remove sin from the world you will have your "Department of Peace." Until then, all such a department can do is EXIST at the largesse of those willing to defend their right to have such an unrealistic, pacifistic, stance, in direct denial of the FACT that the ONLY actions anyone can control is THEIR OWN ACTIONS. You cannot impose worldwide peace on everyone, no matter how "noble" or "altruistic" your intentions. "People" are sinful and selfish and prideful, and those traits alone are enough to "scuttle" any "Department of Peace" and force a "confrontation" at some point with people of opinions that serve THEMSELVES and not others.

By the way, the "United Nations" tried the idea of 17 resolutions calling for behavior change that would strengthen worldwide peace as PART of the Ceasefire with IRAQ. Did it do any good or have any positive effect?

IF you "say something," you had better be prepared to "back it up with action," or it's just meaningless bluster and rhetoric. Ultimatums of all sorts work that way. "Do this or that, 'or else!'"


[color:"blue"]When will we start to except that it is our responsibility to change this world, one person, one child, one minute at a time...and starting with our own nation. [/color]

When we embrace Jesus Christ as our LORD and Savior. HE is sovereign. HE decides "Right and Wrong." HE is King of the World and all Nations are under Him. HE is the final Judge, Jury, and Executioner of HIS will.

Until then, "WE the people of this fallen and sinful world" will continue to be governed, controlled, and IMPACTED by sin and evil. Look no further than our own marriages for "proof."

While we all aspire to what you are arguing for, and while it is a "worthy goal," it does NOT mean "unilateral surrender" in the face of continuing evil in deadly denial of the "laws of this fallen world." Sin exists. Evil people exist. Satan WILL NOT allow "peace on earth" until it is imposed upon him BY God, and not by Mankind.

It is WHY I support the right of the State to act on our collective behalf in excercising the Death Penalty, Maintaining (and using) a Military, and why I OPPOSE the wanton slaying of MILLIONS of totally innnocent babies on the mere "whim" or "choice" of a woman. Where is the "Department of PEACE, life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness" for these innocents? It would seem that a terrific starting point for your Department of Peace would NOT be the very small numbers of people who have been, or are scheduled to be, executed for CRIMES they committed, or the soldiers killed in wars defending us....but it would start with the immediate cessation of the killing of MILLIONS of our own babies on the altar of "free will" and "no one has the right to tell ME what to do!!!!"

God bless.