Myschae - I'm going to reconsider participating in this thread the way that it is going.

The questions you asked are good, but you are in danger of "running too and fro" seeking answers to everything EXCEPT the only thing that really matters.

mojodiva is an example of this, and is not going to like what I have to say, but the Unitarian Univeralist Church today is about as "apostate" as they come.

So I have to reconsider what to respond to, or whether it's even worth trying to have a direct conversation with you with all the "distractions." This medium of conversation does not lend itself well to a "rapid conversation."

So let me toss it back to you to determine WHAT it is you would like to seek answers to and if you simply want comments from everyone or asking ME specifically WHY I believe what it is that I believe so you can possibly gain some answers to your questions.

If Myschae wants only the Christian viewpoint on salvation, I will bow out.

*IM editing part of my post, as it was written in a fit of pique.
Apologies to myschae for that.

ForeverHers


Fair enough. I don't want you to do something you're not comfortable with and, in all fairness, it is off topic for this board.


This confuses me some. I guess I don't see what you think is what really matters. To me, of course, all my questions matter - though I'm sure some of them might seem like 'bad questions' perhaps. I'd like to know what you think matters, if you don't mind sharing. I won't press you for details beyond that.


Heh. I had to look up apostate in the dictionary. Ok, well, one of my questions was how do you know which is right and which is wrong when everyone claims to be telling the truth? Perhaps that's what you mean by running to and fro. *shrugs* I'm not willing to just blindly accept something as truth or untruth because someone says it is.


Very well. I do understand the medium might not be the right one. I thank you for your consideration and I'm content to let the thread die.


Well, I am perplexed about some of the things that you say... what you say you believe .. and how that fits into what else I've heard about Christianity. I suppose it's not fair to you because I'm sure there are some questions in there that have nothing to do with what you believe but that have something to do with something someone else said and I'm having a hard time putting it all together into anything coherent enough to even get a grasp of. Deep down, I'm pretty sure I don't know WHAT Christianity really means beyond a very elementary definition. Or, even what God means, maybe. It seems to mean so many different things to so many different people; some of it sounds so wonderful and uplifting and still some of it sounds so dark and terrible. So much seems very contradictory to me - and some of it really does involve larger questions of why are there so many religions if there's only one God.

I'm not sure if that answers your question. You, more than anyone else, baffle me about some of the things that you say and that's a bit intriguing but then I'm also interested in what others have to say. I don't feel as though my questions are necessarily being answered - I do ask a lot of them but it's lifetime build up all under the heading "Things I really don't understand but would like to, someday." Maybe they can't be answered. And, maybe they can, but today is not the right day.

In the end, maybe you're right. This medium robs communication of a lot of things, probably... emphasis on what's important or what's really bothering me about the whole deal. I think maybe I ask some hard questions... questions that are hard to really convery respectfully in this medium and questions that are probably hard to answer here, as well. So much of how I experence life is emotional that it's difficult to communicate that very successfully here without using quite colorful language (I mean colorful->descriptive not colorful->expletive).. which looses something to the translation to text.

I wish you all the best and thank you for your time,

Mys

Okay Mys, let's "cut to the chase" for minute. You began this by wanting information that proved that Jesus even existed. While all of these other issues are interesting, and deserving of discussion in themselves, THE FIRST and fundamental question is Who is Jesus Christ and is He who said He was?

From a Christian religion standpoint, all the other "questions" are of much lesser importance, perhaps even irrelevant in some cases.

Christianity stands or falls on the person of Jesus Christ. It is much more a religion of WHO we believe in than WHAT we believe.

So, for purposes of discussion, I would "argue" for "putting the other questions on hold" until the issue of "Who is Jesus Christ" is first addressed.

That is my point. If all we want to do is discuss opinions, we could do that, but I don't see where it would serve much purpose.



And that really is my "point." You were asking ME to explain why I believe what I believe and to clarify those things you have read or heard about.

That is what I am still willing to do if that is what you actually want.

I agree with FH, if you are going to talk about Christianity, you have to talk about Christ. Who Jesus Christ is makes Christianity stand out from any other religions.

Myschae - I hope your exams went well today.

What are you majoring in?

ForeverHers


Thank you for asking, I think it went very well. Yesterday was a hustle and bustle of finally being able to end the semester and go on some vacation! I feel like I need one. It's been a long semester after a lengthy absence and going back to school has been really challenging.

My major is Computer Science.


I'm not trying to be argumentative, but to me the first, fundamental question seems to be whether or not God even exists. Because, if He doesn't, then it wouldn't matter if someone said he was His son or anything like that. How do you determine if Jesus Christ was who he said he was without figuring out if a God exists to be his father?



Oh. I don't know why but this disappoints me a bit.


Ok, I guess that makes sense.


All right. I'll give you a little bit of background on my question so you can see where I'm coming from.

For the longest time, I believed that a man named Jesus Christ lived - born in 0 bc, of course, and went around telling people inspirational things, was caught and killed by crucifixtion. I didn't necessarily believe that he performed miracles or that he was the son of God (anymore than I believe that Hercules could re-route a river and was the son of Zeus or that Achillies was the son of Artemis ). It seems that throughout history people have often elevated their leaders to being born from Divinity - ours is not the only culture that has ever done that. And, let's face it, as far as 'miracles' go, Jesus's were much less over-the-top miraculous than some of the Greek stories. So, I was skeptical of the claim. Most of that is because I've never really felt God existed and if He did, it seems to make the universe I experience make less sense instead of more.

Anyway, I was pretty willing to accept that SOME man (son of God or not) did exist and that the Bible was a (possibly embelished ) attempt at relating history.

Recently, I was having a discussion with one of the Graduate students at my school - he has several advanced degrees all ready in history and philosophy and is back for another one. He came in waving around a pamphlet from some campus 'ministry' that and ranting about what was in it and how it was 'twisting' the words of the Bible to advance an agenda. (It had stuff in it like "God hates fags" and provocative speech like that.) He started quoting passages of the Bible which refuted some of the claims they made in the pamphlet. Anyway, I was quite taken aback - you'd have to know him to understand, he's a pretty quiet guy and this was the most animated I'd ever seen him. As it turns out, he used to teach courses on the Bible (as literature) which is why he knows it so well.

I thought it was an interesting thing to teach and I asked him how those classes went - given the topic and how people don't usually think of the Bible as Literature (vs Scripture) and he said they tended to go very well but that people were very unaware of some of the history of the Bible. Which in my case certainly turned out to be true. I'd always thought (or had the impression) that the books of the New Testament were actually written as memoirs or something by the four disciples: Luke, John, Matthew and James (did I get those right?). Apparently, most of the books (at least 3 of the 4) were written quite some times (almost 2 centuries!) after Jesus died and could not possibly be written by those people. They were put together by other groups of people and, according to him, if you examine them in relation to the histories of the time were specifically written in ways to target certain socio/economic classes of people.

All that has nothing to do with whether Jesus lived... except then I found out that at least two books of the Bible disagree on the actual date and circumstances of his birth (don't know which ones but you probably do). One has him born when Herrod was king and the other has him born when someone else was governer but the two don't overlap at all. It has to be one, the other, or not at all. I also didn't realize that they didn't know the exact location of Nazareth or even if there was one. Anyway, there were other things he talked about that I don't remember now, but I remember really wondering whether any man named "Jesus" lived at all or if he's just an ideal .. a character around which to focus the moral play of the times.

But even before that, when I wasn't particularly skeptical about whether or not such a person walked on the earth, I was skeptical about whether or not it was possible for him to be as he claimed or whether or not those things actually happened or were just 'embelishments' added to make him look divine so that people would take his message more seriously. I guess my approach to the matter was always to figure out first if there was a God and then somehow figure out how to tell if he could be the son of such a God. For me, it has to feel right or at least make sense. I can't just blindly say "Ok, that sound good." and follow along. I actually tried but just ended up feeling bad about it - I don't do hypocrasy well.

Maybe that's not what you'd like to discuss and we don't have to.. eventually I think I'll need to answer those questions to come to any real acceptance. I think, for me, I have to somehow be able to 'feel God' and 'know deep down inside' that 'He's' there and what He stands for in order to adopt any religious belief. Meanwhile, I am interested in what you have to say about extra-biblical accounts and histories and verify the existence of the man, Jesus Christ or the miracles he performed. Certainly that's good information to have and to weigh against all the rest of the stuff if you're still willing to share it.


Well, yes, but curiousity about that doesn't preclude any questions or curiousity about other things. I'm not entirely sure what 'distractions' bothered you so much though I can surmise that it was discussion of other topics besides Jesus Christ.

As it turns out, that was one of two very specific questions that I had for you anyway so perhaps you'd be willing to answer one or both of them.

The first question was you've said many times things like follow regardless of what you think or what you feel. I don't understand that. How can you truly follow if you don't think or feel it's right? Or, do you just mean after you've at least made the determination that there is a God? But, then, that contrasts with the message that there's many wrong messages out there and if you don't think or feel about them.. how do you know which is right and which is wrong? I mean, how do YOU specifically decide which message to follow - knowing it's right.

The second is the extra-biblical records that you have regarding Jesus Christ. On that other thread, it seemed as though you had some information that proved factually 'beyond any shadow' that he could only be who he said he was. I'd be interested to see what that is. I presume most of them are probably books and, depending on how many there are, I have time to do some reading over this break.

Thank you for your patience.

Mys

Myschae - I'm glad to hear that your exams seem to have gone well. Ahh...computer science....all we had when I was growing up was an abacus (sheesh...am I THAT old?!?) <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />




For the record, this is incorrect. Perhaps we will delve into the "timelines" as part of our discussion, but again, THE issue of paramount importance is God and Jesus Christ and should be addressed first. I suppose, though, that it's inevitable that other "side" issues will come up, at least in so far as they are relevant to issue of Who Jesus Is.




This is fine, Myschae, as a starting point. I have no problem with that, because the two DO go "hand in hand."




Okay, both of these points will take time to discuss and explore fully, but let's have go at beginning somewhere and then proceed as necessary to stay "on track" with the two major question areas that you have.

So let's begin by looking at your first area of question:

The first question was you've said many times things like follow regardless of what you think or what you feel. I don't understand that. How can you truly follow if you don't think or feel it's right? Or, do you just mean after you've at least made the determination that there is a God? But, then, that contrasts with the message that there's many wrong messages out there and if you don't think or feel about them.. how do you know which is right and which is wrong? I mean, how do YOU specifically decide which message to follow - knowing it's right.

You are in "danger" of trying to get to the "answer" without going through the necessary steps in the "proof statement." To perhaps put it into Computer Science terms, you are seeking to have the program run without accepting the need for the "lines of code" that MUST occur in order for the program to run successfully. Anyone who knows how to load a program into the computer and then how to run the program, appreciates the end result is what they were desiring, but they usually DON'T know how to write the code themselves and are at the mercy of those who do, or at least those who write the "how to" books.

The Scripture IS a "how to" book for Christians, and for all people. The "programmer" is God and He "reveals" His code for all who are willing to study and learn. The CHOICE to USE the program or to "do it yourself" is up to each individual. And many humans DO try to "reinvent the wheel" to roll according to their desires, but not according to how the "original progammer intended it to be."

Now, is that thoroughly confusing?

So let's "pick apart your gaggle of questions into more "bytesize" pieces and then try to begin to provide some answers or interpretations of the "code."

The first question was you've said many times things like follow regardless of what you think or what you feel. I don't understand that. How can you truly follow if you don't think or feel it's right? Or, do you just mean after you've at least made the determination that there is a God?

Let's being with the assumption that God exists and HAS commanded certain things that we who are created by Him are to do. Consider this, though it's a bad analogy, to be like accepting an instructor as THE authority until you study enough to determine if he really knows what he is talking about or not.

IF God exists, what would we "Expect" to see or hear from Him? That's a starting point.

Or looking at it another way, EITHER God (however you want to define a "Supreme Being") created the universe and all the life in it, OR there is NO God and everything happened by random chance. Nevermind for a minute that the 1st and 2nd Laws of Thermodynamics preclude life evolving, it's simply that ONLY the two possibilities exist for how things that ARE here got here.

Now, what will help our discussion immensely is if you would get a "textbook" that addresses many, if not all, of your questions. You could even read it while on break and have it around for a reference so that I don't have to TYPE everything (I am a slow typist and many of these questions have lengthy answers). The book is called Evidence That Demands a Verdict by Josh McDowell. The paperback version is not very expensive (unlike so many College textbooks! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/ooo.gif" alt="" /> )

Let's focus for a minute on what I think to be the crux of your questions, "How can you truly follow if you don't think or feel it's right? "

It's called humble submission. You accept that an authority exists and that what is being commanded is NOT evil or harmful. Anyone CAN do this with respect to God's commands even if they don't accept him as their personal Lord and Savior. The "Golden Rule" is an example of this sort of thing.

Now, granted, it's hard to know WHAT has been "commanded" if we never crack a book, just as it would be very hard to know what is supposed to be done in a given class at a Univeristy if you never go to class or crack a textbook. It's surprising to a lot of people, but there is a Bible in most homes, but most people in those homes have never "cracked the book," much less studied it.

HOW you follow without "feeling it" is to CHOOSE to obey. Here's an example. God commands husbands to love their wives. It is NOT a command to "feelings" their wives. The concept of love includes some feelings, but it is NOT dependent upon "in-love, tingly, feelings." It is an ACTION that God commands, and God does not say "love only after you feel tingly and 'okay' with the person."

So you see it's not a case of, "Or, do you just mean after you've at least made the determination that there is a God?" God commands and IS God whether we choose to believe or accept his existance or not. Just like gravity exists independent of our feelings or choices or beliefs, God determines and God sets the rules that will impact us regardless of what we "feel" or "choose to think."

Now, for the purposes of trying to address your parallel questions of "does God exist" and "is Jesus the Son of God" let's look at a couple of things.

God "proved" himself to the people of Israel in the "olden days" through various ways, including showing himself to some of the prophets (like Moses and the Burning Bush). But NO ONE has seen the Father and lived. So what HAS been seen? I would submit, and if time permits we might go into the "why I believe" reasons, that the individual who was seen was God the Son. In these "latter days," God showed himself to us in Jesus, the Second person of the Triune God. "If you have seen me, you have seen the Father."

Therefore, we examine the CLAIM by Jesus that he is the "I AM" that was revealed to Moses as the creator of all.

That brings us to what is commonly referred to as the Trilemma.

Liar.
Lunatic.
Legend.

If Jesus is NOT one of those, then he IS the Son of God, as he claimed and IS the Lord and Savior of all who will surrender to him and accept him.

That's probably more than enough for this post. I'll look forward to reading your comments and subsequent questions.

Heh. Well, I'm a returning student - I didn't finish my BS the first time around because I fell in LOVE. *grins* Ah well, it's never to late.


Which part is incorrect? When they were written? Where did you research that? I've done some very preliminary research and it seems to bear out what he told me (that was some time ago so it would take me time to reproduce it.) It wasn't in depth or anything.


Actually, yes. I read it a few times but I can't relate the analogy that you used and I'm not sure I understand what you're saying.


Ok.


I suppose I'd expect a lot more clarity.



Isn't another possibility God(s) in the plural? And, there's more possibilities than just the Christian version of God, unless the other religions are worshipping him, too - just in different way according to their cultures. That, actually, would be pretty easy to wrap my mind around - it seems anything as omnipotent as a God might be flexible enough to accept different types of worship according to a culture's peculiar and specific customs?

Sure, give me a few days and I can grab that book. We can even delay the discussion a bit till I read it, if you think it would help.


Heh. I even have a Bible. I've tried, at various times, to read through it but I've never made it all the way through. I think I keep getting lost in all the begets.


Sure, but the definition of 'love' changes around quite a lot. Sometimes it's wine and roses and other times it's tough love (Plan B). So, 'love' might be an action but it's not a consistent action and much of it gets wrapped up in what kind of 'love' we think our spouse needs at any particular moment. Wouldn't you agree?
And, that commandment is one of the easier ones to assign to a benevolent, loving God. Some of the others (killing people, for example) are a lot harder. I mean, if you were told by God to kill your child or wife... could you do it? (wasn't there someone who was commanded to do that? Was it Issac?) That kind of thing just boggles my mind. Obediance is easy to give if it's stuff you'd be inclined to do anyway. It's much, much harder when it goes against your nature.

Now this, I get. If God exists, He does so independent of my belief or personal feelings. But, that works both ways, if He doesn't exist.. then He isn't there regardless of beliefs or personal feelings.


What about Adam and Eve? Didn't he go walking in the Garden with them?

I'd like that.


I'm not sure it can be boiled down that simply. For example, I doubt he was a Liar - at least not an intentional one. IF he existed (and that's still quite a big if in my mind) then I have no reason to doubt his sincerety. That doesn't mean I believe his claim, but why would I assert that he intentionally wanted to mislead people?

Lunatic. Well, I think a case could be made here. After all, the things he did managed to get him crucified (assuming, once again, that he existed). It seems that he might have done more by sticking around?

Legend. I'm not sure if you meant by this someone who's just a story or if you meant Legend as in Son of God. This one is very confusing to me.


Why? Why aren't there other possiblities that don't have to cast him in a negative light? How about someone who meant well but wasn't as Divinely inspiried as he believed. What about the Moslems who believe in Jesus but only that he was a prophet. Could he have been a prophet?


My apologies for the delay. You know how when you have a really busy week you think to yourself "Ah, after <finals> I'll have so much time on break.. I can deal with this then because I'll have PLENTY of time." and then after whatever that week is (or several weeks in my case) you realize that you've dug yourself into a hole? That's what happened to me. I've about dug myself out, though.

Mys

VERY Happily married
No infidelity
Just celebrated 14 years
(usually hang out on EN)

Myschae - I'm looking forward to further discussions with you as you begin to read that book. Hopefully it will address many of your questions much better than I can.

A couple of quick responses:



Yes, of course it works "both ways." How do we KNOW that God exists? Because we have the PERSON of Jesus Christ who claimed to BE God. This is not like any other "religion" where MAN has constructed what they think of when they say "God." This is the crux of Christianity:

Thomas said to him, "My Lord and my God!"

Then Jesus told him, [color:"red"]"Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."[/color]

Jesus did many other miraculous signs in the presence of his disciples, which are not recorded in this book. But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name. (John 20:28-31 NIV emphasis added)



The "choices" are simple.

Liar - he deliberately chose to lie and NOT tell the truth in order to mislead many people even though he knew what he was saying was a lie.

Lunatic - he could sincerely have believed what he was saying about himself but be sincerely wrong. What "evidence" did he give or provide to "back up" what he was saying?

Legend - it means "Myth," he never really existed, a figment of some writer's imagination, and invention for story purposes, but not real. Or, and "ordinary" man who writers embellished with "creative license" like some movie director in order to sell books or entice people into their "cult." Either way, he was NOT real and NOT really THE Messiah, THE Son of God, or THE Lord and Savior of the world.



No, there are no "other" possibilities. Everything else falls into one of the 4 "possibilities;" LORD, liar, lunatic (crazy but 'sincere'), legend.

No, Jesus could NOT have been "only a prophet" because all of the prophets pointed TO the Messiah, who is Jesus. All such attempts are merely attempts to 1)deny that Jesus IS the Messiah promised to Israel, and 2)an attempt to deny Christ's diety and to reduce him to merely "some created being like the rest of us." BECAUSE the alternative is CLEAR...IF Jesus IS who he said he is, then HE "sets the rules, not man."

I look forward to hearing your comments on what you read in that book.

Now, I'm planning to go see Narnia with my 21 and 28 year old daughters today! Can't wait to see C.S. Lewis' story brought to life on the "big screen!"

God bless.

I have read many, but not all posts on this thread, and I can identify with your (My’s) questions and quandary. At age 52, I too have wondered, if not struggled with much of my adult life, what constitutes “faith” and whatever role organized religions play in it. At most, only one of them is correct.

My conclusion > all organized religions have it all wrong - for me.

Perhaps you’re in the same place.

I hesitate to offer this, realizing that many reading it may roll their eyes and pity me - maybe even pray for me - as being a lost lamb. Don’t bother. I’ve been referred to here (regarding this broad topic) as an atheist, a heathen, a relativist, “without values”, etc., etc. Oh well. I do not profess to know all the answers, just enough of them for me. If a label needs to be applied, I suggest I'm an individual thinker.

I offer that “faith” does not have to be rooted in a divinity, a myth, or a book. You can “surrender”, as I have, to being very content with whatever rational and logical explanation for the universe as you see fit. It doesn’t have to conform to anyone else’s “faith.” My “surrender” came when I concluded that none of the “faiths” fit my view of the universe, my place in it, my (current) beliefs of how it all came to be, and whatever purposes exist (including none). What a relief! Pure surrender! No more compromising, pretending, or force fitting explanations, or portions thereof, that I didn’t buy. Why even try to have an answer for everything?

I won’t attempt to explain my version of faith - it may not work for you or anyone else. - and I will not try to persuade anyone else to seeing it my way.

I offer this simply as another perspective.

Hi WAT.

What you are "offering" is not "another perspective," it's really just the usual fare in answer to "....if not God (the Christian Triune God), then what?"

"Truth" is not relative and it does not rely on what anyone may or may not "believe." God exists or God does not exist as anything other than some fanciful imagining of some person's mind. Jesus IS the Messiah, the Son of God, or he is not.

You are quite right when you state; "I offer that “faith” does not have to be rooted in a divinity, a myth, or a book. You can “surrender”, as I have, to being very content with whatever rational and logical explanation for the universe as you see fit. It doesn’t have to conform to anyone else’s “faith.” "

Faith is NOT "what" we believe so much as "WHO" we believe. A person can "believe" or have "faith" in whatever they want to, but it will not change the fundamental truth when compared to the "Christian" belief in Jesus Christ as the Son of God, the second person of the Trinity. EITHER Jesus Christ IS who he said he was, or he is not. IF not, then ANY faith you or anyone else wants to "hang their hat on" is just fine. IF he IS, then all the other "faiths" are meaningless and in error.

"What we believe" stems from, and comes after, the "who" we believe.

So the "issue" again devolves to the "lowest common denominator." Is Jesus Christ who he said he is?

You embrace, and posit for others to consider; "My “surrender” came when I concluded that none of the “faiths” fit my view of the universe, my place in it, my (current) beliefs of how it all came to be, and whatever purposes exist (including none). What a relief! Pure surrender! No more compromising, pretending, or force fitting explanations, or portions thereof, that I didn’t buy. Why even try to have an answer for everything? "

While you, as is true for all of us, are free to "believe" whatever you wish, I would simply point out that your belief is "egocentric." You evaluate things from "your perspective" and ignore or dismiss anything that does not "Fit" into your chosen "worldview." You place Man and his "intellect" as the supreme intellect and determinant, but do so from your own perspective. In short, you CHOOSE.

We all choose. With respect to God, we (meaning Christians and the rest of the world) have Jesus Christ to examine and to arrive at conclusions about. There are FACTS that can be examined. Based upon those facts, the veracity or falsity of the "hypothesis" that Jesus IS who he said he was and who the Bible predicted can be determined. The DIFFERENCE comes at the point you mentioned. It comes to WHO will we "surrender" our lives to? Many accept the "facts" about Jesus, but they refuse to humble themselves to put God on the "throne of their lives." Instead, they reject the "gift that is offered" and enshrine their own "will" as supreme in their lives.

They can, and are free to do so. But it doesn't change the truth. They can even sincerely and completely believe that God does not exist and that Jesus is NOT the Savior...and still be completely wrong.

THAT is what separates Christianity from ALL other religions, including the "religion" of Atheism that holds to a faith that Man is the pinnacle of evolution and that the grave is the "end of our brief existence." It IS the person of Jesus Christ.

As Jesus asked: "Who do YOU say that I am?"

THE question that must be answered by each of us.

God bless.

Quick question:

I surfed over to amazon this morning and I found some books by Josh McDowell. It seems that there are two books of similar titles and I don't know which one you'd like to discuss. There's this edition: Evidence that Demands a Verdict, I which appears to take around 2 weeks to ship.

And then, there's this version New Evidence that Demands a Verdict which appears to be a later edition (only available in hardcover as near as I can tell.)

Which one should I get (I don't mind the difference in price) for our discussion?

Mys

All right, so, do you want me to tell you which of these I think is the most likely?


Ok, so maybe this is a silly question, but where is Jesus vs God in the hierarchy of Heaven. If Jesus is God's son, then he's not on the same level as God?

And, if a Messiah was promised - what exactly IS a Messiah? What does that mean for all practical intents and purposes?


How was it? I haven't seen it yet.

Mys

The one I have is the first one, Volume 1.

I have not yet looked at the second one "New Evidence that Demands a Verdict."

If you don't want to wait on Amazon, most Christian bookstores usually have it in stock.

I will have to check out the new book to see if it adds anything significant for the purposes of our discussion, but I suspect not.

Another very little primer that you can get if you'd like is a small book called Know Why You Believe by Paul Little. That book was actually the book that I used at age 23 to answer the "basic question" of "Jesus or no Jesus."

Together, those two books will you give much of the information on which to base your evalations...and hopefully your decision for Christ.

God bless.

WAT,


I think I'm in a similar place. I've thought about things and I definitely have my own ideas of how the world works. Mostly the intent of this thread is some clarification. I've heard a lot about Christianity but most of it just seems a jumble to me - much of what I hear doesn't sound much like a benevolent God or seems contradictory to itself (different groups seem to believe different things and yet they're all Christian). Also, the whole idea of having faith in God -- without any evidence (at least any thing that rises to what I'd consider evidence that I've heard about) - seems odd to me. ForeverHers has said in past threads that there is evidence. I'd be interested to see what that is and whether or not I agree that it is, indeed, evidence.


I guess I'm interested in learning more about what the faiths or religions are before I make any ultimate decision. As it stands, I think the default is non-belief rather than belief. Or, at least that's what my default is. But, decisions made today can be changed tomorrow. Goodness knows I've changed my mind about a lot of things. I'm interested to see what the evidence is and compare it to other opinions and see which is more compelling.

And, if nothing else, it would be nice to see where other's are coming from even if I never adopt the same perspective.

Mys

That sounds like a logical approach. Don't be in a hurry. It took me a long time to get "here." You will eventually find your own place. Asking questions and requiring rational answers is good and healthy - for this or any topic.

Beware folks who tell you you're wrong or try to convince you that they're right. Don't discount them outright, just beware that they may have selfish motives or are propping up their own belief systems.

WAT

WAT-
Excellent response.

--from someone who knows Jesus was not the messiah.

mojodiva - interesting response from someone who has lately been trying to pass herself off as a "Noachide."

I'm glad you know that for a certain, based upon fact, so now the rest of us Christians can just toss in the towel and follow whatever suits our fancy.

But just for sake of clarity before jumping ship, what exactly do you offer in replacement of Christ and on what basis do you reject him as the Messiah?

FH- The Marriage Builders ladies know that I am not 'passing myself off' and that this is not recent. I've been posting there for two years now--they will back me up. Its a very lonely road and can be rough because of that. I was taught about the path of the righteous gentile in 1999 by Orthodox Jews in the Countermissionary Forum at www.delphiforums.com. I thank them each and every day for their assistance in repairing my relationship with God. I had been a monotheist pagan for ten years before meeting them. I had lots of questions and they were patient with me. I eventually became one of their trusted moderators. You can easily go visit their forum and ask them about me if you wish. Point of fact, there is a recent post there with my name in the title-- my friend was updating them on my situation and letting them know I was still living as a Noachide. Have fun looking at the forum, there are lots and lots of great posts there. Here is its url: http://forums.delphiforums.com/antimissionary/messages

IF you feel the need, also please visit http://forums.delphiforums.com/Noahide/messages I posted there as _MOJODIVA_ and as _CHAYA_

Oh, and don't forget to 'check up on my story' at

http://forums.delphiforums.com/JewishQA/messages
If you ask about me, be sure to be polite. You will find posts from me there as _MOJODIVA_ and _CHAYA_ as well dating back to 2000.

Sounds like you have no problems stating your own stance as fact but sure as heck can't handle it when others do.


Since there is no reason to replace a dead man, I have no answer. I worship the God of Abraham. Im not perfect at it, but He knows me. I also need no reason to reject a mortal man, but I will share with you a few sites that can answer your questions.

Myschae, since you may be interested, you can look at them as well. They all discuss the prophecies that have been manhandled to 'fit' Fh's particular dogma.

http://www.messiahpage.com/htmldocs/whynotj.html
http://www.geocities.com/logic_faith/intention.htm
http://www.angelfire.com/md3/baruchgershom/ynotj.html This one was written by my Orthodox friend Bruce, who introduced me to living as a Noachide.

There are tons more.